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Halman posted:Dumb American here but I thought Tom Watson was supposed to be good So did we. He has a reputation as being someone who knows his poo poo and does what's best for the party, as well as being someone who is good a backroom politics and could keep the PLP in line. Unfortunately, it seems pretty likely that that's accurate, but he's been fighting for the wrong team. I voted for him mostly because he seems to have a good head on his shoulders WRT the internet, communications and modern technology, but boy do I regret it now. Thinking back I don't think there actually were any deputy candidates that struck me as... you know, good. Also, did anyone consider the possibility that the reason Watson didn't run is that he would presumably have to give up the deputy seat and trigger a deputy election, in which Corbyn would run a lefty and the lefty would win?
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Jul 1, 2016 23:02
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https://twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/748945087208521728 (A branch of Tristram Hunt's CLP's meeting included a motion of no confidence from one of the branches and a declaration in support of corbs, in case of tweet disappearance) 
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Jul 2, 2016 00:50
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XMNN posted:not gonna lie I would have considered voting for someone who wasn't as left wing but might not be undermined by the plp so constantly and counterproductively at one point Seriously. If they'd just challenged for leadership by putting forward a challenger, I might have actually considered the unity candidate. Now though, gently caress them, deselect the drat lot of them (the former shad cab, particularly, less so all 172 non-confidents, I suspect there's a wider bullying issue going on with some of the less well known back benchers). If they can't compromise and they can't behave like grown-ups, they don't deserve to be paid £75000 (or 75E  ) per year to fail to run our loving country because they're too busy planning to ignore democratic processes.FUndamentally though my real point is the one in Ober's post in the OP. It's far better to try to win from the left and risk losing because of a lack of 'electability' (a nebulous concept at best when there's a wide feeling of disenfranchisement among the younger generations who've never felt listened to because establishment politics can't be bothered to do the actual work necessary to court their votes) than to take the abominable risk of dragging this country inexorably further right by running a stuffed-shirt centrist who's young and go-getting and electable but spouts terrible non-policies of 'like the Tories but slightly less so'. That strategy only serves to drag the country further to the right, further towards outright fascists winning major power, further into small-minded separatist racism and xenophobia at a time when the country and the world desperately needs global co-operation and unity. I elaborate more here, I'm not going to go on too much. (Some ideas may be stolen from Ober, I hope he doesn't mind too much) thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 10:22
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Gort posted:You did a bad I fixed the bad. Thanks.
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Jul 2, 2016 10:32
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Berious posted:Hope you're not basing your electoral hopes on the 1/3 of younger voters who could be bothered to turn out for a once in a generation referendum. I'm basing it on the idea that the referendum might have been a kick up the arse for them to realise this poo poo is important, and on the fact that Corbyn appealed well to a younger generation. I know, I know, hope is a mistake. But as noted, it would be better to lose from the left and force the political discussion to actually include the left as a result (an election being basically the only time that the media are forced to give the leaders of the parties a voice if they don't want to) then to run from the right and further convince the nation that racism and xenophobia are appropriate responses to lovely government policies just because the government lies and blames brown people. E: on another note, I wonder if what the left needs is a Farage figure. No, hear me out. The reason the Tories can get away with so much in the way of lying about immigration and brown people is because Farage is out there doing much, much worse. Jeremy Corbyn's views are really not that extreme on the left when viewed against the wider political spectrum, but they seem extreme to people who've spent 30 years listening to politics which are at best centrist, so they can easily be reported and denigrated as extreme left wing, loony lefty, and so forth. Maybe what we need is a famous and populist socialist willing to take a lot of flack from the right and get a lot of press by loudly lying about the benefits of full anarcho-communism now on the breakfast shows for the papers to hate on, so that the likes of Corbyn (and the greens and so on) can seem reasonable. Not sure how to accomplish it, but it feels like it might help. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 2, 2016 |
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Jul 2, 2016 10:36
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They really are reaching now.
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Jul 2, 2016 15:11
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Namtab posted:Kinda late, but wasn't there a plot by the plp to get loads of centrists to join to weaken the corbyn bloc There was - Luke Akehurst wrote an impassioned article and everything. But the people they're trying to recruit just don't exist, by and large, whereas the people who supported Corbyn last time and didn't actually join up when he won, still do exist, and he's got the hard-fighting underdog thing going for him too.
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Jul 2, 2016 19:49
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ThomasPaine posted:So when the hell is Eagle going to put up or shut up and actually trigger a leadership election? Does she (and the PLP more broadly) not realise how weak they look? I can only imagine that Eagle and Watson have basically just been barracking with each other about which of them should run - but about which of them has to run, not which wants to. They MUST all have worked out by now that whoever runs both loses horribly, fucks their career, and most likely loses their job in somewhere between 9 months and 4 years?
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Jul 2, 2016 20:27
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Regarde Aduck posted:I'm choosing to believe Watson is just acting the part is and is a secret Corbyn ally. This poo poo is 11 dimensional hungry hippo. I want to believe someone in the apparent rebel camp is not a huge moron, but I'm not seeing it. If he was willing to run that deep cover, couldn't he have persuaded them not to suicide the party at the single most crucial moment since the last general election, possibly since Blair went to war in Iraq...?
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Jul 2, 2016 21:52
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OwlFancier posted:I dunno if I would want a capybara as leader of the labour party. Still gonna to better than any of the quitters. But then, sitting down, looking dignified and keeping your mouth shut is enough for that so...
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Jul 2, 2016 22:06
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Fans posted:McDonnell had a nice speech being candid about everything so far. Great speech thanks for linking it up. And yeah, it's not like the coup plots have been a secret - they could have learned about them by reading the drat papers. What IS interesting to know is that they had a person on the inside of the coup plotters' meetings. I do wonder who.
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Jul 2, 2016 23:52
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I really, really doubt it was him given that he led the loving charge.
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Jul 2, 2016 23:55
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:So how many people actually believe the nonsense about Corbyn/Momentum being antisemitic brocialists and how many people are just pretending? Supporters of the Labour right seem to be pushing it super hard, and I don't know if it's because that's the mud they think will stick or because they genuinely believe he's socialism's answer to Dapper Laughs. I suspect there are a few people who are actually antisemitic, a large number who are anti-Israel and get conflated with antisemites because that's what happens when you're anti-Israel, and a vast number of twitter trolls who get conflated with what people actually think. I wish the twitter trolls would stop, but it's very, very easy to wind up doing it.
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Jul 3, 2016 09:15
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Ashcroft's poll IIRC.
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Jul 3, 2016 12:24
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Extreme0 posted:http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14594967.Corbyn_s_new_Shadow_Scottish_Secretary_attacked_the_Barnett_Formula/?ref=mrb&lp=4 But... isn't the Barnett Formula desperately in need of review as it's wildly unfair to places that aren't the south-east? I mean, that's not what a review now would do, but... it DOES need reviewing doesn't it?
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Jul 3, 2016 12:32
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Jose posted:maybe shouldn't have resigned every hour on the hour making it look very obviously organised rather than the result of benn being sacked But if they'd dragged it out over the week or two it might have taken them to make decisions, Chilcott would have come out in the interim. I honestly cannot ever hope to understand the thought process going on there.
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Jul 3, 2016 13:00
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Jose posted:i honestly can't believe the overconfidence and incompetence to try and claim it wasn't organised I'd honestly have more respect for them if they just came out and admitted it this time. It's not like the papers haven't known that it was being organised for like 7 months.
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Jul 3, 2016 13:13
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It also shows their cowardice and lack of principles I think - it strikes me now that the likely thought process is 'well in this situation I wouldn't care what the membership said, I'd just cave to the bullying and follow orders'. They just can;t comprehend someone who doesn't cave because he believes in the principles he stood for when he got the job.
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Jul 3, 2016 13:16
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baka kaba posted:Why not? Have you seen the TV reports? They never even mention it. For most people the 'reality' is that Jeremy Corbyn is bad and lost the EU referendum and his MPs are now trying to save the party. Every headline helpfully treated each resignation as a shocking new twist The media is against a significant change in the status quo and a swing away from it having a lot of control over politics? Surely NOT!
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Jul 3, 2016 13:29
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LemonDrizzle posted:http://www.politico.eu/article/michael-gove-backing-boris-johnson-would-have-been-a-betrayal-britain-prime-minister-brexit-vote/ *Fails to note that a lot of the jerbs dey tuk are highly-skilled and require a decade of training which we've been singularly failing to provide to our own young people for a decade.*
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Jul 3, 2016 14:09
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Honestly Katie Hopkins could give away her entire fortune to Syrian refugees and I would still be suspicious of her motives and dislike her instinctively.
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Jul 3, 2016 14:55
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qhat posted:His views aren't actually garbage though. They're usually pretty stubborn arguments that are very difficult to refute. I think the thing is that his views are *conservative*. As opposed to the 'tell-any-lie-to-get-votes' neolib/capitalist line which every government since Thatcher has spouted. He genuinely believes that small government is better. He's wrong, but he's not saying it because a focus group said it was the best thing to say.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:16
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The thing with it is that it makes it potentially possible to actually persuade him. Whereas the 'any lie for power' type is unpersuadable because they don't care whether they're doing the right thing for everyone else as long as they're doing the right thing for them.
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Jul 3, 2016 16:21
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He's not wrong, but sadly the source will blind most of the people who need persuading to the reality.
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Jul 3, 2016 18:16
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qhat posted:What exactly is the UK doing wrong wrt education? "not enough money" isn't really a good answer. Not enough money, not enough training, lovely curriculum, poor inspection methods, easier exams, little social/political/economic education. vegetables posted:Given most younger people voted to remain, wouldn't the lack of investment have had to have happened decades ago? It did and still is. I'd argue that the evidence points to it from both directions, both in Leave voters among the older generations, and in lower turnout among the younger.
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Jul 3, 2016 18:49
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jiggerypokery posted:The fact that the largest provider of education materials, testing etc in the UK (Pearson) is in a world of poo poo for corruption in the US with no comparable legal action here in the UK as far as I am aware is pretty telling. Yep, that too. The testing structure (what little I've found out about it anyway) iis pretty hideous.
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Jul 3, 2016 18:55
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Antti posted:The education thing is a good soundbite and all, but the people who most voted against Brexit were educated 40-50 years ago. The British education system's hopefully come a long way since then. Maybe having strong education now will prevent a similar disaster half a century down the line. It hasn't come on as far as you might hope.
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Jul 3, 2016 19:16
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Carborundum posted:Having an actual, high-profile, left-wing voice in British politics, consistently banging on about re-nationalization, rights, etc. for several years on the national stage is a worthwhile thing. What's the other alternative? Labour chooses some indistinguishable arsehole, fails to win over Tory voters yet again etc etc forever. This all over. Given the choice between fighting from the left and fighting from the centre (and I suspect that both options are about the same in terms of likelihood of success, the former probably a little more so) I'd far prefer to drag political discourse in this country leftwards rather than watch it inexorably march further right.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:07
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I heard back from my MP on Corbs. He confirms what he wrote in the local rag, voted to support him, but thinks his position has become untenable, would welcome a leadership election. I asked him to clarify two things, whether he thinks it's the PLP's fault, which is implied but not stated, and what he thinks would happen if there was such an election and Corbyn won. gently caress's sake can the PLP just get over themselves and do their drat jobs?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:25
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Pissflaps posted:What is their job? Opposing the loving government. Or it was, until they ran away from it like petulant children who didn't want to do their homework.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:30
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The hell is this in response to?
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Jul 4, 2016 18:41
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Apraxin posted:PLP meeting this afternoon: Yes, they do. They will learn.
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Jul 4, 2016 18:58
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Pissflaps posted:They're not declaring ownership, they want to see the Labour party returned to what it was. Socialist? Bring it the gently caress on.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:08
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:2nd of May 1997, round about lunchtime. Shortly before a general election when a populist Labour leader was appointed and won a landslide majority? ... Wait.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:10
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Pissflaps posted:I'm guessing a point when it was a party that appeared capable of forming a government. Guess what would have happened if they'd all done the jobs to which they were appointed instead of conniving the resign at the worst possible moment for the country. Fakedit: engaging with Pissflaps *slaps own wrist*
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Jul 4, 2016 19:11
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Darth Walrus posted:So I'm seeing a lot of dark, vague muttering about Leadsom. Apart from retweeting that one racist tweet, what makes her significantly worse than the Tory average? Nothing whatsoever makes her worse than average AFAICT. Average is plenty bad enough.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:35
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I've long since thought that the best way to get progressive change to the voting system would be for Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Plaid and UKIP to make a rainbow coalition standing on the basis of 'if we win we will reform the electoral system and rerun the election' but that kind of co-operation would be basically unheard of. Helping UKIP is a small price to pay for making the permanently fractured left able to actually be represented. Especially given that at least some of those UKIP votes will be protest votes. Stupid protest votes, but still.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:46
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Way too fuckin late, you saw his nazi propaganda poster right?
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Jul 4, 2016 19:47
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Yinlock posted:I think that's how the US ended up in it's two-party hellhole, though, the (formerly) lockstep morons vs Everyone Else, and it's really hard to get Everyone Else to agree on anything. That's just the point. All Everyone Else has to agree on is that electoral reform. Then you hold new elections and continue on from there. It's a total pipe dream but meh.
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Jul 4, 2016 19:57
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OwlFancier posted:It's going to be interesting watching the contortions involved in getting CORBYN BAD and BLAIR BAD in while Corbyn is busy saying BLAIR BAD. If Corbyn were a Strong Leader he would have pointed out that BLAIR BAD years ago, TIBFJC he must resign. (Ignoring of course the fact that he did)
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Jul 4, 2016 21:19
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