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So Shannon and Kanon are in the same scene together, with Battler and Poirot-Lolita. Hmm. There goes that theory.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:51
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CottonWolf posted:Yeah, I'm guessing with loli-Poirot in the mix we're back up to 18. Unless Krauss isn't in the parlour or among the dead because he's not on the island on this board, and LP has replaced him. If my theory about Shannon and Kanon being the same person is true, the red holds even with Poirolita. 
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Mar 19, 2017 00:46
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I suppose putting red statements into doubt would be an interesting gently caress you to the reader, but I don't think it makes much sense from a story perspective? That's a pretty serious gambit for sure, but I don't believe the red statements would have used such weasely wording, like "The victims did not die from accidents" or "There are no more than X people on the island" if they were pointless.
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Mar 19, 2017 21:23
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quote:
 I can see how this scene could be part of the case Poirolita is building up against Natsuhi, so it may not be totally factual. But drat.
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Mar 20, 2017 18:21
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"Shut your mouth!! You don't understand anything about money or business or economics!! Don't try to butt in on your husband's job!! A wife should be satisfied with doing housework! Don't speak!!!"
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Popping in just to say that it's a real bad sign when your disassociative personality starts disassociating in turn. Sayo, it's ok to feel your feelings!! oh god 
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Mar 25, 2017 08:11
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Hey, Nanjo pulls that outfit off better than I would. I actually think Gaap might perhaps be a personification of the old demon spirits of Rokkenjima. Anyway, are we back to epitaph time? I found it really hard to proceed while thinking abstractly about it, so I wrote it down and was able to visualize the rest of it a lot better. (  my beloved theory, DR LOU) Again, all of this is contingent on two big assumptions: 1) Kinzo grew up in Taipei and 2) the "key" is Qilian, a station along the Freshwater / Tamsui train line. Simply by the existence of Google Maps, this level of reasoning is possible for TCL. What do you think, goons?
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Mar 26, 2017 18:23
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I think perhaps fiddling with the plaque at the chapel that says QUADRILLION according to the epitaph's directions opens up the well that Battler had tried to bust into during the last episode's tea party section. You enter the well, follow the tunnel, and end up in Kuwadorian, where the gold is stashed. That also explains how Kinzo was able to travel to Kuwadorian so easily without being followed. I forgot to mention that another hint toward the "hometown" being Taipei is the bit where Natsuhi talks about areca nuts. Also known as betel nuts, the areca is really popular in Taiwan, to the point where it's a bit of a public health crisis. Fun fact: they increase your risk of oral cancer! Smart move dodging that bullet, Natsuhi. I remember a few of my grandma's brothers being really into that. Blech.
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Mar 27, 2017 00:52
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 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBO9-RqsmsQ
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Mar 27, 2017 15:46
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tiistai posted:Just a reminder To be honest, that was a part that really stumped me, and I read that conversation a few times. I still don't get it. That's the one niggling part of the epitaph clues that makes me feel like I'm off-base.
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Mar 27, 2017 16:30
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Eleanore posted:I'm an idiot OK, it makes sense when you read the kanji that way. Ten quadrillion is 10,000,000,000,000,000, which is 10 to the power of 16. Where does the 16 come from in the English translation? The wording is so weird that I can't quite wrap my head around it. Give me kanji wordplay over that poo poo.
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Mar 27, 2017 17:53
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yeah this is probably why we didn't get the letter this time. 
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Wow peas, that's so on point. I also wonder if Kinzo was fine with the ridiculously convoluted process involved in going to Kuwadorian because, on some level, he knew that the secret that he was hiding there up until 19 years ago was really loving awful. The use of the puzzle and secret passage is almost like an external manifestation of the extreme guilt he carried for basically maintaining a Jaycee Dugard scenario going in his backyard for years. God, gently caress Kinzo.
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Mar 28, 2017 03:40
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Yeah, it makes my skin crawl. But I suppose that's the point.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:14
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Semantics aside,idonotlikepeas posted:Now that we have confirmation of the gold in red... I have to wonder where Kinzo got it from? It sure as hell wasn't witches! Maybe some kind of massive robbery, but who has that much gold to begin with? I've honestly never thought too hard about the origin of the gold. The "official" story, according to Battler, goes like this: ProfessorProf posted:Grandfather then went on and on about how he continued to research alchemy and techniques for summoning demons in order to become a great magician... And the entity summoned as the result of the demon-calling ceremony was the Golden Witch Beatrice. He then said that he made a contract where, in exchange for his own soul, he would receive fortune and honor. The witch then granted Grandfather 10 tons of gold. Grandfather used this gold as collateral to prepare a vast quantity of funds, and then used that to multiply his wealth by several times and revive the Ushiromiya family... Was Beatrice 1.0 a real person? How did she get her hands on that much gold? Why would she give it to Kinzo? How was the gold transported to Rokkenjima? If she was real, she existed during WW2, since they say Kinzo multiplied his fortune by getting in good with post-war investments. If her name and basic appearance in the portrait is to be trusted, then she was Western, maybe Swiss or German. Or Italian, to really cement the Dante references in this work. Probably the latter, considering the pronunciation of her name. So maybe Beatrice was an aristocratic refugee from Italy who got on Mussolini's bad side and didn't want the gold traced back to her so she dumped it on Kinzo. She transported the gold to Japan or somewhere in the Pacific theater using Alternately, Kinzo met Beatrice while abroad—did they mention he was in the army? I can't remember—and orchestrated the transport to Rokkenjima with her. Either she gave him the gold to essentially wash her hands of something troublesome, or did it for more altruistic reasons. I think it's too early to tell.
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Mar 28, 2017 18:53
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But the epitaph just got solved in-game without anyone having to die first.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:46
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ProfessorProf posted:
 but also resurgam40 posted:Which means I do think that she wanted the epitaph to be solved by Battler, and wanted him to come here. But it isn't the gold she wanted him to see, it was the room it was in... she wants the question to be asked of why- not why the gold, but "why the room"? Hidden by secrecy for years, unbeknownst to every one, for somebody to live... or be kept. I think this is absolutely it. Knowing what went down in Kuwadorian seems like an essential piece to understanding who Beatrice is.
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Mar 29, 2017 17:36
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"...Next time you want to send a love letter, I suggest that you just write 'I love you'. If you make it too roundabout and confusing, no one's gonna be able to figure it out."
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idonotlikepeas posted:We've even got a reasonable supposition as to her motive: someone discovers that Kinzo is dead, and she has to kill that person to protect her secret, and then things spiral out of control. It's conceivable she didn't commit all the murders, of course, if you want to assume that she didn't kill Jessica. I'm sure that some more terrible stuff will come up, of course, because... you know, Umineko. I'm interested in seeing where the mysterious phone caller comes into this story. While we don't have outside confirmation that a call did happen (no red statements speak to that, right?), it adds another layer to Natsuhi's psychological stress this time. Could that person be using the murders to frame her and get revenge? Natsuhi even speculated that Erika may have been the caller, but we know that, as the detective, she can't be the culprit or an accomplice to murder. So it's possible Erika is being manipulated to suspect Natsuhi. As to the identity of the caller, there are a few clues that can help us figure that out. One, their age, which is 19. Two, their dubious gender: contrary to the VA's delivery of the lines, it's noted that the voice is more or less a tenor as far as depth goes. Three, they called Natsuhi "mother." But they can't be her child by Krauss, because we know that she had trouble conceiving during that time. Jessica is 16, IIRC. About 20 years prior to the last family conference, did anything interesting happen on Rokkenjima? edit: I must have misread that update! So the caller didn't exactly say they were 19, but that the crime happened "19 years ago." The only person who would be young enough to call Natsuhi "mother" and kind of fit that range is... George? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 07:32
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I'm just going to ignore the witch hunters' awful awful outfits for the rest of the game because jfc. Crotch frills? Really? Is this like... a commentary on something or... ughhh. Anyway-  -The narrative mentions that Battler landed in the courtyard, which IIRC is enclosed on all four sides by the mansion. That, coupled with the fact of the typhoon, could mean that the area can become super gusty as the airflow backs up and could thus break a fall somewhat. I can't find a good explanation for this on the web; it's just conjecture based on what I've observed in similar spaces. (I'm looking at one right now, in fact, and it's quite windy in there.)
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Apr 7, 2017 19:09
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Apr 9, 2017 15:46
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I agree with resurgam. None of that poo poo even happened: note that Lambda weasels around stating the fact of the knock itself in red. I also will propose that, because Erika holds detective authority in this game, nothing that she does not witness firsthand is trustworthy. It's expanding on the hostage thread in the previous episode, which was stuffed full of magic because there were no surviving witnesses and/or the perspectives were of accomplices. Thus, Shannon and Kanon are seen together in the dining room as separate people. Thus, Kinzo is seen by Battler outside. Thus, the knock.
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Apr 10, 2017 23:16
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So George is 24 and...Rune Full Moon posted:Shannon is 16, actually. 
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Apr 16, 2017 16:58
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Which begs the question of why the gently caress anyone would take on a 6-year-old servant. Wasn't it stated before that the Fukuin kids only get to work on Rokkenjima if they are at the top of their classes? Surely that didn't mean "shoelace tying" or "recorder playing" classes or whatever first graders do.
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Apr 16, 2017 17:16
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It's been a really busy two weeks for me at work (gently caress you too, semana santa), but now that that's over I can truly jump in again! For the most part, I agree with curiouscat. I think there's something to the sentiment Ronove expressed earlier this episode—that this game "did not have love." What that seems to mean when we "turn the chessboard over" is that the mastermind-piece, Sayo, isn't motivated by her unrequited love for Battler-slash-furniture angst this time. Rather, as has been shown by the mysterious caller, she's motivated by revenge against Natsuhi. Obviously we can see that Natsuhi has become the object of a very controlled conspiracy. The story has revealed that she's holding onto two very big secrets this round: the lost baby and the death of Kinzo. So if we consider how that framing can dictate the characters' actions this time, I think that possibly the truth is that she and Erika are being manipulated by the family; Krauss may have been blackmailed into going along with it, or he may have truly been kidnapped in order to isolate Natsuhi and get her to spill the beans to the rest of the family. As we saw in the latest episode, meta-Battler still frustratingly can't grasp his sin, which is the reason for the killings and the key to this mystery. If he could, he would be able to articulate the reason why Natsuhi is not the culprit, and why she is the scapegoat here. I think he's getting there, since it seems like his gut is telling him that she isn't the killer after all. He just needs to make the leap into understanding how and why the true culprit would have a grudge against both him and Natsuhi. There are more holes as well. 1) If Erika listened to the other room all night, how was Natsuhi able to silently kill everyone without her knowing? 2) When did everyone truly die and where did their corpses end up? 3) It was established that Piece-Battler's POV is unreliable, so his testimony as it related to anyone being dead is shaky at best. At worst, he is actively lying in order to implicate his aunt. edit: yeah, Knox's 5th "Chinaman rule" would probably not be valid here because the chorus of "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo, [known Chinaman]" is an actual plot point. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 22:40
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Qrr posted:Erika started listening at 3 am, and the prosecution believed that all of the murders were completed before 1 am. Somehow. And Genji had to die before his room was sealed, though Eva did that sealing. If he was actually dead; the red text in this update was once again "no one misidentified a corpse" and therefore still useless. Then how did Natsuhi enter the guesthouse without being noticed? I feel like the circumstantial evidence against her only applies if she is a literal ninja.
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Apr 17, 2017 22:50
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We have to redefine what "disprove the witch" means as well. It's more like, "Who is Beatrice?" More than just her true name, but why does she exist?
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Apr 17, 2017 23:53
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Wow. Natsuhi is so much like a pitbull: unwilling to let go of a fight even when the potential boons of victory have been whittled down to nothing. And it's so sad when you realize that the murders and phone calls and violence are potentially just a ruse (ok maybe not the violence) to get her to confess this one thing. That she's willing to be burned at the stake over men who certainly weren't willing to put their egos, let alone their lives, on the line for her sake. That said, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for people like her, who let their emotions override their ability to accurately assess and adapt to high pressure situations. I understand why she is like that, but it is hard to watch her flounder and fail to see opportunities to maneuver her way out of this or at least get people to see how she is a victim, too. edit: yeah resurgam, you're a homie, but your use of misogynistic slurs put me on pause for a bit. I feel you though. witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 15:59
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quote:
gently caress Krauss.
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Apr 18, 2017 17:21
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oath2order posted:I'll defend Krauss, slightly, by pointing out that this very update shows what a sincerely considerate person he can be to women. But we shouldnt forget just how loving patriarchal the family he grew up in is. It's not surprising that, wheb he'a pushed to thr brink of dispair, he falls back on that old training and lashes out. Maybe it's my personal poo poo, but I have zero tolerance for that excuse. Only being considerate and non-misogynistic when he's not stressed or pissed off is worse, in my book. And he's an adult. We can only blame daddy so much after a certain point; after that, our behavior is on us.
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Apr 18, 2017 17:47
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idonotlikepeas posted:Yeah, looks like it got auto-hit. If you're still curious, you can get it here: Yeah, YouTube link is a no-go in Mexico as well, if anyone's counting. Really awesome montage with the lyrics though! I haven't seen the anime but it looks DEEN as gently caress. Cyouni posted:Kanon and Gohda are not the caller. This does not prevent someone else from acting on their behalf. Why couldn't Kanon be the caller, though? That thought does lead to the macabre conclusion that Krauss may have been killed in the room next door to Natsuhi's bedroom.
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Apr 19, 2017 07:38
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Wow, that voice acting. And drat, I only just recognized the fact that Natsuhi and OG Sailor Jupiter have the same actress! (And hairstyle?) I can be dense sometimes. But that's so good. Natsuhi's confession certainly confirmed a few thoughts I had about what was going on with Kinzo's reaction to the news, adding more to the pile of clues about who Beatrice really is. I'm looking forward to the Tea Party to elaborate some more on this. And while it makes for entertaining reading, I'm not sure if there's much weight to the Battler/Jessica = cliff baby theory, considering their behavior this episode. Why would Battler fight so hard to defend Natsuhi and literally jump out of a third story window on her behalf? Why would Jessica pitch a shitfit over Erika implying the succession could go to the solver of the epitaph?
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Apr 19, 2017 18:07
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resurgam40 posted:Hypothesis: Cliff Baby came to relatives after Battler found the gold with an idea on how to get Krauss/Natsuhi to confess embezzlement, and told the story about the baby. Then, once Natsuhi leaves, everyone hatches a plan to have Battler pretend to be Cliff Baby and call her... maybe they went as far as to plan to fake the murders in the first twilight as well. Remember, Erika didn't examine those bodies when they first showed up. Maybe they really did get up and walk away, and were subsequently killed. Could even have been that Hideyoshi's murder was meant to be faked too, only that one turned out real. If true, this means that the Battler POV we've gotten is completely and utterly false. It's a new tack for this story, but also makes sense, considering how it's been slowly introducing new ways of mistrusting the narrative with each episode. If you apply this new mode of "reading" to the previous episodes, it's easier to understand how and why magic and unreliable narration was being used to mislead the audience. It's also interesting to note that Erika did not see the one thing that would have made Hideyoshi's death incontrovertible: the stake sticking out of his body. Eva conveniently pulled it out of him right before Erika entered. There are definitely some hints to Erika being misled, too.
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Apr 19, 2017 20:00
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I can easily imagine how the garden conversation about love could have gone if Erika were present. She's definitely the type of person who would keep a duct tape seal on her lover's underpants.
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Apr 21, 2017 16:33
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I'm on the edge of my seat, hoping that at least some of my reasoning is on point and that Battler is gonna drop that knowledge with a vengeance. More importantly, why doesn't he get a cool costume change a la EVA? A cute dress? At least a staff or something, geez.Cyouni posted:I definitely think that both Kanon and Shannon are involved, but the real question is which one's the one guiding it. Even if Shannon's motive was the guiding factor, I feel there's a non-zero chance that Kanon is the one being the primary executor. Oh my goddddddd y'all are killing me Edit: aw yissssssssss werk that cape
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 16:20
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CottonWolf posted:But Krauss and Natsuhi are their masters at that point, aren't they? Yeah but they're not loving mindless slaves lol There's definitely been a lot of space for them to exercise their own (sometimes murderous) agency. And if the culprit/person from 19 years ago/Kinzo's incest baby/Beatrice is one of the servants, that introduces a whole other level of power playing into the dynamic.
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Apr 23, 2017 18:04
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Oops, somehow missed an entire page of posts, so I just wanted to say...CottonWolf posted:Shannon is the cliff baby. I think you're spot-on here wrt the weirdness of Kinzo's relationship to the cliff baby/Beatrice's child, and perhaps this is also the reason why the concept of "furniture" has such resonance for Shannon and Kanon. There is definitely something really weird and psychosexual about it; I could easily see how it (and the idea that furniture "cannot love" or be in a mutually fulfilling relationship) could be a coping mechanism against trauma. In addition, we have the disassociation, extremely shaky sense of trust (which I think manifests as the red/blue truth dichotomy), and suicidal ideation, which are typical symptoms of PTSD. Whether or not that trauma is directly because of abuse via Kinzo is still up in the air, I think, though maybe we could seek out specific clues that may have been PRESENTED in the text. The thing about trauma, I should add, is that it's a lot like being Peanut the turtle. The worst thing about it isn't the event itself, but the way in which your mind and body morph and contort around the trauma over time without you really noticing that it's happening. It becomes so normalized to you that you don't realize what it could be like to not be shaped by it. Except in horrific, painful moments when you're reminded that the wound is there and that it still has the power to completely eclipse any happiness you might have scrounged up in the meantime. Maybe that's why Battler's abandonment hit her so hard. In this game, Beatrice has literally been begging him, Please help me put words to my experience. Please see my pain.
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Apr 23, 2017 23:23
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Hahaha aww, that's cute! It's a good thing Battler's cape/necktie situation is more parseable than Kinzo's, or else I'd be really distracted and annoyed every time I see a resurgam post. If anyone is thinking of giving me an Umineko avatar... I don't care, just not George. ANYONE BUT GEORGE (but I guess that would be a nicely hosed up av/username combo)
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Apr 24, 2017 19:54
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tiistai posted:We have an idea or two but either way it's still going to take a while before it's relevant Don't tell me there are more new characters coming down the pipe...
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Apr 24, 2017 20:32
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Let me guess, if Battler is indeed the one writing the stories from now on: Beatrice 1.0 finally maybe??; Sayo's true face; Goat-kun's little sister coming onto the gameboard to take her brother home; Astaroth, the demon of rational thinking, depicted as a smug pantsless meganekko; KYRIE Beatrice, the Witch of Sweet-rear end Mexican Standoffs; the kawaii personification of the concept of sadness
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Apr 24, 2017 21:08
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This is... gross. I wonder if this Beatrice is supposed to be a reversion of the culprit, instead of just Beato specifically: a version of Sayo without all of the masks she carries. That could explain why the characters express such a mix of revulsion and pity toward her.
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May 2, 2017 03:46
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May 3, 2017 16:14
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ZiegeDame posted:Came here to post this. (I still waiting for the Sayo people to point to the evidence that shows her feelings for George are all a lie.) To be clear, I don't think that her feelings for George are a lie. I think it's more complicated than that. If my theory is correct, Sayo loves three people: George, Jessica, and Battler. Three facets of Sayo each love a single person, and the tragedy is that none of those three truly understand who she is. In the fragments, she is able to kill one or the other because those facets, being in conflict, have no problem killing the object of another's desire. Alternately, they are able to stow away their love in service of the greater goal. I'm not sure which is more feasible to be honest, but I can see both applying here.
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May 3, 2017 17:56
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