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Your Parents posted:I don't understand how Coop finally saving Laura is a bad and bleak ending. The Lodge spirits try one last time to keep their hooks in Laura by pulling her into this alternate reality of mundane suffering at Judy's, where she's a diner waitress, stuck in that role for 25 years, and also a desperate murderer hiding out in her home and fearing for her life. Cooper finds her and convinces her it's fine, and she's safe, and she can go home. At the last second, Mrs Tremond/Chalfont tries to trick Coop into thinking he failed, to give up and walk away, lost forever, but Laura listens to the sounds, hears Sarah calling her, and it all comes back. She screams and the last veil of illusion falls away. The actual ending shot, though, is: Magic Hate Ball posted:Cooper trapped endlessly in the whispered secret, forever distressed.
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Sep 4, 2017 07:11
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Lava Lamp Goddess posted:You can also see themes of duality in the show with the two Coopers and potentially the two Dianes. It was at least implied that non-tulpa Diane wasn't a chain smoking alcoholic. Maybe all tulpas have negative traits? We see Dougie was piece of poo poo too before he got turned back into Cooper... Well she was a Tulpa of Diane created right around the time that the bad Cooper raped her, and Dougie was a Tulpa of bad Cooper. Your Parents posted:The last ending shot is the mystery of what Laura whispered to Cooper. He's not literally back in that place. I know but the implication of that shot, and everything up to it, was not one of a happy ending. The only happy part of the finale was the portion with the new Dougie and his family.
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Sep 4, 2017 07:13
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snoremac posted:Who is The Jumping Man? Keep seeing references to him but can't remember. http://twinpeaks.wikia.com/wiki/Jumping_man
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Sep 5, 2017 03:26
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I don't mind that they dropped Earle. He never lived up to the way he was described. Not even close.
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Sep 5, 2017 06:38
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I'd rather have another semi self-contained movie than another season.
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Sep 5, 2017 06:40
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tao of lmao posted:A more optimistic read on the finale: I've seen a few optimistic interpretations, but they always seem to ignore how everything in those final moments is staged, filmed, edited, soundtracked, etc. Its all working together to make an atmosphere of horror. And More posted:I'm slightly sad that James never carries an owl around. Owls in general were kind of missing from this season. The hobos were the owls. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 18:27
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Vogler posted:Alright, there's at least one thing I'm having trouble understanding. Bob was destroyed before Cooper went through the portals. So why did Major Briggs & company urge him to go on? What were they trying to achieve? If their goal was truly to save Laura, well, wouldn't the lodge spirits know better than that? People say that Cooper was overestimating himself and/or naive, but what about them? One possible explanation is simply that MIKE and the Fireman benefit from trapping Cooper in an endless cycle of horror. Jeffries, Briggs, and Desmond could just be other victims of the same cycle. That, or even if Cooper is momentarily lost there really is a plan against Judy that may or may not still be on track. In episode 17 Cole does say that the project was always ultimately about Judy.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:45
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paint dry posted:Everyone always assumes that the Giant, MIKE etc. are omniscient and infallible. What if they're not? When MIKE asks Cooper whether its future or past maybe he genuinely doesn't know, and that's why they rely on mortals to do their work for them.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:47
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Vogler posted:If the Fireman's aim was really to trap Cooper in an endless cycle of horror, then I feel like nothing in Twin Peaks can be taken at face value. I mean, the dude looks like a literal saint. Seems like the spirits see humans the way we might think of animals. Specifically like how a beekeeper sees his bees, or a dairy farmer sees his cows. The name of the Fireman seems to mean that he puts out the fires that the others set, to protect their status-quo. However there's no reason to think their status-quo is favorable to people.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:57
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Vogler posted:I've seen alot of takes about what the world that Cooper and Diane enters really is. When Cooper revisits the lodge Mike says "the past dictates the future" and then Cooper changes the past. The show spends a lot of time setting this up. So why would it be a dream or a different dimension, instead of a different timeline? Because Laura not getting killed that night doesn't explain any of the other changes to that world. Why would that remake her into a woman named Carrie Page? Also IIRC MIKE asks is it future or is it past. It's Cooper who declares that the past dictates the future.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:03
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Why do people think Judy is the one who took past-Laura away when she was being led through the woods? Dale said he was taking her home, and we already saw her being sent from the Fireman's realm and that the particular portal where Cooper led her led to that same realm.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:06
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Dougie is pretty central to the ideas the season is playing with. Cooper ends the season (or even the show) in a nightmarish place because he becomes so focused on the past and the future that he forgets the present. A shot of him even from some time in the future even literally overshadows the moment of long-awaited victory over BOB and his doppelganger. As Dougie, however, Cooper only reacts to the present moment with no regard or motivation toward anything else.cjg posted:People have been saying that the Fireman is potentially malicious. When Booper traveled through the Lodge Transport System (man, that room with Briggs' head and the golden tube was so much like a 90's video game, I loved it), the image first showed Sarah Palmer's place, then the Fireman swiped it over to the Sheriff's Station. When Booper landed, didn't he say "What's this place?" or something like that? What if the Fireman pranked him and didn't send him where he wanted to go but instead moved him to where Freddie was? Seems like it, especially if Judy was in fact waiting for him inside of Sarah.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:20
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Origami Dali posted:Her whisper to Coop was "we live inside a dream". That actually makes so much sense, but I dunno about the Fireman being in the dreamer role. His name evokes a very different role, to me.
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Sep 6, 2017 04:05
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HorseRenoir posted:Looking back, does anyone know what was up with the first scene we see the Jackrabbit's Palace in, where Coop meets Naido for the first time? Not only is it the only time we see the lodge in color, but when Naido flips the switch it turns into a completely different room with a different woman inside (one of the models from Flesh World, I think), with Judy banging on the door. What is this place and how/why was Judy inside the Fireman's dimension? Not sure how to interpret that part as a whole, but that different woman was played by the same actress as Ronette Pulaski: http://twinpeaks.wikia.com/wiki/Ronette_Pulaski IIRC someone pointed out there are numbers in each room, above the outlets, which correspond to the episode numbers when Cooper first replaces Dougie and when starts to come to his senses (and sticks a fork in the socket), respectively. Almost as if had he gone through the first outlet he would have woken up in episode 3 instead of being Dougie-Cooper until episode 15. As for Judy being inside that dimension, maybe that's why the Fireman solemnly declares "It is in our house now".
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Sep 7, 2017 05:00
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Shibawanko posted:I went back to the finale and I think this is my take on it: I like this but it doesn't take into account that there's another shot after that, of Laura whispering into Cooper's ear. I know that's an image of a previous scene, but that still runs against the main ending telling us that "she simply vanishes as the show ends and the universe disappears".
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Sep 26, 2017 02:19
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...! posted:I felt the same way about Lost's ending as I do about TP season three's ending. Lost's unfulfilling ending retroactively ruined the show for me, to the point that I immediately sold all my blu-rays. I loved it while it aired but I can't imagine ever watching that show again, knowing how shittily it will end. Did you really expect an unambiguous ending from Twin Peaks, of all things? Lost was straddling a line between traditional storytelling and the piling on off surreal, mysterious moments but by now everybody should be aware who David Lynch is and what he's known for.
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Oct 6, 2017 22:23
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Baloogan posted:so, what does twin peaks all mean, summed up? Don't live in the past or future, only the present.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:49
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And More posted:It's a weird situation. Without Lynch, Twin Peaks would be terrible. The entire Jacques Tati Dougie setup is clearly his thing, and so are all of the surreal horrifying things. You can even trace them back to some of his art. What exactly is Frost's contribution, though? People used to say, Frost kept Lynch grounded, but this season isn't even slightly grounded. Season three barely had a proper investigation in it. Is he just responsible for the Tulpas, numerology and sex magick? I don't know what really goes on behind the scenes, but when people say Frost keeps Lynch grounded I think they mean someone has to get all those crazy ideas into an actual script with specific scenes in set locations in a clear order.
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Oct 27, 2017 23:37
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Pinterest Mom posted:My Twin Peaks order was S1, Mulholland Dr., Inland Empire, Lost Highway, FWWM, and S3, and I loved it. Inland Empire better right before Season 3, though.
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Nov 5, 2017 21:53
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Cromulent posted:All this talk of lore made me realize that in S3, "Black Lodge" is only ever said once, the White Lodge is never mentioned, and garmonbozia is never spoken of. When is the black lodge mentioned?
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Nov 7, 2017 05:26
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Curious how you guys feel about Tammy now that the show has been done for a while now. Like Kaworu was saying about the supposedly boring scenes, I started appreciating her a lot by the end and in retrospect I love her character.
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Nov 30, 2017 06:07
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:In the past I went back and forthwith my opinion on David Lynch. Sometimes in the past, I'll admit, I thought he was a one-trick pony who was really good with eerie atmospheres not so much story. Hope The Return keeps up. I'm kind of taking my time with it, cherishing each episode and giving myself time to think about them before going on to the next. At Lynch's best points the atmosphere is the story. He does care about story, he just focuses on the subjective experiences of the characters more than the illusion of an outside, objective view of the events. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 07:13
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And More posted:Agreed. Imagine gushingly praising any old poo poo that some "renowned" director puts out despite it being obviously loving terrible to any normal human being. Lynch is one of the greatest carnies of all time and everyone unironically enjoying this complete shite is an utter loving rube. Is the goal of experiencing art to align our tastes with what Something Awful forums poster "And More" imagines normal human beings like or don't like? No.
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Jan 25, 2020 20:58
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The Return has a lot of disparate details but I see the main theme as 3 alternate ways to live your life, represented by the 3 Coopers. Dougie represents living totally in the present. Agent Cooper lives too much in the past (at some points, literally), and that's his undoing. Evil Cooper only looks towards his future goals, but ultimately its almost like a dog chasing cars.
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Jun 23, 2020 08:01
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What I'd really like to know is, how different are Frost's and Lynch's understanding of the overall themes, concepts, and messages of the whole series? Were they fundamentally aligned, and did they even care to be by the end? Lynch is known for not wanting to over-explain his work to the public, but I wonder if he tries to explain it to collaborators. Or if he just gets them to trust in the vision of it all, and lets someone like Frost fill in the more literal details.
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Jun 24, 2020 02:55
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Section 9 posted:Also, something that occurred to me: is the person behind the diner in Mulholland Drive possibly one of or realted to the woodsmen? Similar look, and since Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be an offshoot of Twin Peaks, could be something Lynch was working on as a concept earlier on? The white-faced man from Lost Highway, as well.
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Jul 1, 2020 07:11
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pyrotek posted:Whatever it is, Mark Frost isn't involved. Watching season 3, I can't imagine too much of that was Mark Frost's work. If I remember right, the deal was that Lynch and Frost discussed the overall story first. Then Lynch was allowed to do whatever he wanted while directing, and Frost did what he wanted with the two books.
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Dec 12, 2020 21:09
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The Klowner posted:What are you talking about? Good Cooper and friends destroyed Bad Cooper once and for all. The alternate "Richard" version of Cooper we see in the very last episode seems like a mix of the good, normal Cooper and the evil Bob-infused one, to me.
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Jan 6, 2021 06:41
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Jerusalem posted:Which is probably what the residents of the White Lodge want from him, to be an agent of positive change against the relentless onset of the dark. What makes you think there is a White Lodge, at all? Or that characters like the Giant / Fireman have any sort of benevolent intentions?
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May 23, 2021 06:05
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Escobarbarian posted:Watching this show and thinking The Fireman isn’t a force of good is a hell of a take But The Fireman gets what he wants, then leaves Cooper stranded and confused in some alternate timeline. Jerusalem posted:Remind me: in the scene in Fire Walk With Me where the Arm sits with Bob demanding his share of Garmonbozia, while many other figures are present like the (a) Woodsman and even Mrs. Tremond and her grandson, the Fireman himself is not present, right? Plus we see him present alone in his "home" in episode 8 seeing the "birth"/ejection of Bob into the world, and immediately taking steps to try and bring about his capture/confinement within the Lodge. Unless I'm remembering wrong, he never shows any interest in or desire for the "pain and sorrow" the other characters seem to covet. It seems like some of the otherworldly forces, like BOB, directly feed off of human emotions. Some just manipulate humans for their own purposes. None are really benevolent. Tubgoat posted:Because there is a Black Lodge. When we actually see that world it is covered in a pattern of dark and light stripes interlocked together. Seems like its implying that the good and evil sides are all mixed together, and inextricable. We never see any reason to think there is a separate Black or White Lodge, that's just something a character says once. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 07:08 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 07:06
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Escobarbarian posted:We don’t exactly know their relative power. How do we know Judy isn’t more powerful than The Fireman? Do you think Laura getting stranded as Carrie Page was what he wanted? I think he wanted to defeat BOB, and he didn't care either way what happened to any human caught in the middle of their conflict. He must have had some plan for Laura, since he apparently sent her soul or essence to Earth. But Chester Desmond, Phillip Jeffries, and Cooper were ultimately treated as expendable and all three ended up lost between worlds.
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May 28, 2021 17:54
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Blotto_Otter posted:How do we know that he left Cooper stranded and confused? Cooper appeared to enter that alternate timeline/reality of his own accord, and we don't know what happens to him after the final scene. (Personally, I'm a fan of the theories that the beginning scene in the Return episode 1, where the Fireman urges Cooper to remember "Richard" and "Linda", is either the Fireman briefing Cooper on whatever plan he acts out in episodes 17/18, or is an out-of-sequence scene that takes place sometime after the final shot in episode 18.) If you interpret it that way, then I see what you're saying. I saw that scene as coming first, meaning the Fireman led Cooper to where he ended up at the end of the series. I vaguely remember an implication that the "Richard and Linda" scene took place during the long time Cooper was trapped in the other realm, but maybe that's wrong. Maybe what he was wearing in the scene is a clue to when it happened, in the context of the rest of the story? Blotto_Otter posted:It's not something a character says once. If memory serves, Windom Earle, Major Briggs, and Deputy Hawk all make some kind of reference to there being two lodges. Doesn't Briggs even claim to have visited the White Lodge? If we're going to try and read some meaning into the arrangement of floor tiles, I would argue that it suggests that the two lodges are intertwined with each other, not that we should discard the multiple textual references to there being two lodges. Can anyone else confirm how many references there are to the White Lodge in the actual show, and when they come up? I guess my overall point is that I always see fans refer to the story of Twin Peaks as a Manichean struggle between good and evil spirits, with the town in the middle. And I just don't think the actual show supports that view. There are certainly good characters and uplifting moments, but they usually come from the human side. Maybe the Fireman wants to help, but he never actually does, so why assume he has good intentions? Seems like maybe some residents of the other realm manipulate human's negative emotions, and some manipulate human's positive emotions (like giving Briggs a moment of pure, otherworldly joy). They are still all manipulating humans for whatever their own goals are. Origami Dali posted:I thought the new Lynch netflix thing was supposed to start shooting this month, but he's still boppin away at his house in LA so hmmm. Where was it supposed to be filmed? Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 20:05 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 20:01
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The Klowner posted:I think it is a mystery box but not in the sense that Everything in Twin Peaks means something, just not in the same way as a traditional mystery story with clues that eventually lead to an exposition scene where the detective explains in exposition how they all fit together. Which is maybe why the second episode of the whole series shows Cooper finding clues by throwing stones at random. That communicates to the audience that this will not be a traditional murder mystery story. And IMO the implication there is clear enough without needing Lynch to explain it to us in an interview or a commentary track. Also, I'm pretty sure writers in any genre or medium rarely plan everything ahead of time when writing series. That's just not how the creative process works, for most people. I get the impression that this expectation has become a lot more prominent with the rise of "CinemaSins", and the general popularity of the attitude where the goal in consuming media is to outsmart the movie/show/book/etc. and catalogue all of the plot-holes. Like, did Lynch plan everything from S3 with Judy and Laura's mom from the moment each of them were first introduced? Probably not. Does that mean there is no meaning to either, in the story or themes? No.
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Aug 21, 2021 21:37
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or jj's oeurve is. in JJ world the mystery of the supernatural is simply a justification to advance the emotional conflict. the mystery itself is irrelevant and unplanned by his own admission. on the other hand, David Lynch has never given a clear answer about what's going on in twin peaks. Is twin peaks just doing the JJ thing where none of it actually means anything substantial and Lynch is just smart enough not to say that out loud and spoil it?
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shoeberto posted:Yeah the whole explosion of "exposé" type web content looking at the DARK HISTORY OF or the intense interconnected symbolism of what the gently caress ever has sort of ruined people in a lot of ways. And I think we can absolutely blame shows like Lost for setting up that expectation. Lost was sort of half and half, with that. There were tiny clues and easter eggs encouraging dedicated viewers to piece together the complex history of the Island and its inhabitants, which never fully came together into a cohesive whole (because it was never planned out 100 percent, by the writers). But while the show was airing, and perhaps even now, the biggest impacts came from the execution of Big Moments like the Island moving, or the "we have to go back" scene. And that is actually a lot like Twin Peaks. We all remember the first Red Room sequence, even though not everything about it was ever fully explained and fit neatly into a pre-planned mythology.
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Aug 21, 2021 22:13
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The Klowner posted:My reason for belaboring this is that I think categorizing Lynch's work as entirely intuitive takes away from what makes his art so unique. Lynch has a story about the creation of Mulholland Drive that may shed some light on this topic. I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the Mulholland Drive TV pilot had just been rejected, and he wasn't sure what to do next. He was washing his car, and suddenly inspiration struck for how he could turn the pilot into a feature-length film. The idea just came to him, as if fully-formed in that moment. So, where did the idea come from? You could say from his intuition, or his unconscious mind. But it was a specific idea for the resulting film's concept. Once he had that, every other decision to actually complete the project was built on that blueprint. It wasn't just improvised from whatever his whims were, day to day. That's how David Lynch works. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Aug 22, 2021 |
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Aug 22, 2021 05:21
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Blotto_Otter posted:I am... not entirely sure that having a white woman show up in yellowface is the best example to point to when bragging about Lynch trusting his actors IMO there should be a distinction between a white person playing another race and a white person playing a white person who is pretending to be a different race. Like, was it racist for Leonardo DiCaprio to play a racist in Django Unchained? Blotto_Otter posted:I've read claims that Joan Chen had asked to be written out of the show in order to do a movie (which flopped; allegedly she regretted leaving). So in the writers' defense, they didn't wake up one morning and decide they had to do something weird and off Josie in the lamest way possible; they got asked to write Josie out (and then tried to do something weird/"Lynchian" but failed spectacularly). I just wish they wouldn't have tried to connect that whole part to BOB. That's what cheapened it, to me. Otherwise, it actually was kinda Lynchian.
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Sep 9, 2021 19:28
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Blotto_Otter posted:"Racist" isn't a race, so I don't think the DiCaprio comparison is a good one. The most recent situation that springs to my mind is Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, where he played a character who is a white actor who then appears in blackface. (And even there, Downey and crew arguably get away with it only because the movie attempts to acknowledge the problems with blackface and provide its own commentary on it.) Obviously racist is not a race. My point was that a character doing something racist is not the same thing as the actor, writers, or show/movie being racist.
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Sep 9, 2021 21:55
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Blotto_Otter posted:Sure, of course it's not the same thing. But the problem people have with Tojamura is not that Catherine Martell the character did something racist, it's that the writers/Lynch/Piper created a whole plotline based on a lazy caricature of a racial minority. Nobody cares if Catherine Martell acts racist, they care about Piper and Lynch thinking it was a good idea to dress Piper up in a bunch of obvious prosthetics, communicate in nothing but grunts and a terrible Japanese accent, and have all the other characters act like this is all normal and fine and not racist at all. Seems fitting for people to act that way in a small town in America, especially when that's also in a campy soap-opera context. These same people also don't realize something's up with Leland, aside from normal grieving, when his hair turns white and he's running around doing musical numbers.
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Sep 9, 2021 23:36
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