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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Mr. Nice! posted:

I mean, what 1L doesn’t get a little excited at legally haunted house?

Hey, wait, I know the answer to this one! "One who shouldn't be in law school," right?

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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

yronic heroism posted:

Apocalypse World solved the riddle of how to design tabletop and all RPGs about being a law student must now be AW reskins and written in IRAC form.

All PbtA moves are practically written in IRAC form.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Phil Moscowitz posted:

You obviously aren’t familiar with the training navy seals have to do. I did the training (not officially but I kept track of all the laps and sit-ups and such and also had my friend Bobo scream in my face with a megaphone to simulate combat). They are ruthless killing machines that can raid some dictator’s palace without a trace, justifiably homicide him, and exfiltrate with extreme prejudice. Robots can get hacked. Navy seals? No way.

The naturopathic method is to have state-sponsored killing performed by actual seals.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Mr. Nice! posted:

Maybe I should set up a kangaroo BDSM court for all of these people to sue each other. Can treat it as a form of binding arbitration ala Judge Judy.

Judge Booty?

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Pook Good Mook posted:

Norwegians are hardcore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kkgIe1TI5k

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

blarzgh posted:

Another success story!

How long ago was the previous one?

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

I can't tell whether this thread likes nerdy law questions. I guess we'll see!

True story: my classmate's break room at work was getting a new refrigerator, so everyone was given a week to clear their stored food. She noticed a frozen meal in the freezer that was a kind she liked, and began to scheme -- if the owner didn't claim it within the week, she was totally going to eat it. Every day she checked, every day it was still there. On the last day, 20 minutes before the deadline for removal, she gave in and took it. As she was clearing the ice off the package to refer to the heating instructions, she uncovered her name on the box, in her own handwriting.

We talked for a bit about whether she was guilty of anything, especially attempt.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

HFRO is good and a sub is definitely a sandwich.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

ActusRhesus posted:

1.To your first point... the US doesn’t have a comparable violent crime rate to a lot of developed nations. So I’m not sure that’s really workable. You’d need to get the crime rates on par which is another huge discussion.


By what percent would the prison population be reduced if those convicted of nonviolent offenses paid their debt to society in a way that wasn't prison? It sounds as though you think it's a small number. It's not a small number.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Discendo Vox posted:

tyvm this is my jam and unironically going to rock

I hope you're going to get a book teaching you Old Norse via the Prose Edda, rather than simply reading the translation.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

ulmont posted:

Honestly, the people who were bottom 30% of my class? Those people shouldn't be practicing law. Or doing anything more complicated than maybe trash collection.

The lowest performers in my classes are usually the people putting a lot of things ahead of school. For some, it's jobs and/or their children. For others, it's day drinking and/or naps. The Dunning-Kruger students are pretty rare.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The main one discussed at the conference was client intake. In the nonprofit legal world a lot of grunt time is spent listening to the legally ignorant complain and figuring out if there is any remedy for their complaints. A lot of that could potentially be automated with sufficiently sophisticated tools.

Past that there are increasingly sophisticated legal research and drafting tools.

But yeah "within five years" in tech terms means "there is a problem nobody has solved yet but we think somebody might soon."

And you're correct about subcontracted legal work too.

The client intake thing is already happening in British Columbia with their Civil Resolution Tribunal's Solution Explorer. Menus direct them through to see whether they have a legal issue, and the CRT itself prompts litigants to deal with each other directly first, then with a mediator, and then finally to an adversarial process. The CRT started with small claims, but is spreading into other kinds of cases. At no point (yet) is there an AI, though.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Mr. Nice! posted:

Also 4.0 through first semester of grad school.

There is no curve in most grad school, and the lowest grade you are likely to receive is a B+.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

evilweasel posted:

such as requesting to get high during the test

how else would one get a high score?

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Sab0921 posted:

The Phantom Menace isn't even really a part of the rest of the series - it stands alone and nothing that happens really affects the future course of events other than the twenty-something Queen grooming an 8 year old.

It shows how the Jedi were probably wrong about how great it is to brainwash children into emotion-suppressing soldiers, and how it's not a great idea to give corporations a seat in your representative government.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Petey posted:

should i apply to law school y/n (for 2019)

it's pretty fun

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Petey posted:

the (perhaps/probably wrong) way I am thinking about it is that most people in positions I aspire to have a terminal degree/doctorate of some kind, and that means a JD (very expensive, fast), a PhD (moderately expensive, slow), or a part-time EdD (somewhat less expensive, slow, mixed on whether it's seen as adequate or a diploma mill depending on audience)

My experience in higher ed has been that those with PhDs respect a JD less, but fear it, so you can maybe get the same results in a lot of circles. I think you're right on with the EdD.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

mastershakeman posted:

If I lived alone without pets and no alarm I could probably sleep 70 hours a week. And this is with me powering through a half dozen cups of coffee a day plus often having some at night before bed

My experience is similar, but I have noticed that when I have cut back on caffeine, the ability/desire to nap diminished. That amount of caffeine is likely tiring you more than it's wiring you.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Hopefully the Visicanucks will sack DC soon and put us all out of this misery

Our problems are more reminiscent of the end of the Roman Republic than they are the end of the Roman Empire.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx6w3j7cWa0

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Chuka Umana posted:

okay maybe i was being ridiculous cuz lsat studying is being a pain. Am I supposed to do exercises like this for most of law school? The LSAT isn't extremely difficult in its questions but I find it extremely easy to make simple mistakes so I guess practicing is the only solution.

Practicing is the best way to get good at the LSAT and nothing at all like law school, in any way. Before you study any more, you should talk to as many lawyers as you can, as soon as you can. You have no idea what you're getting into, and finding out what you're getting into is shockingly easy (and it didn't even occur to you to look into it, which should worry you now that I've pointed it out). I don't know you, law school might be perfect for you, but whatever you're imagining it is...it isn't that.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Lawyers do occasionally affect (and even effect) public policy changes, but this is done via strategic lawsuits, and these strategic lawsuits are often planned and orchestrated by the public policy people above the lawyers working the case. For the sake of your future self, volunteer or work with an organization that works for the reform you feel most passionately about, and have lunch with every attorney and strategist there. Talk to them about what they love about their job and what they dread, and what they would do differently/do if they were you. Pay special attention to the opinions of people who love what you love and hate doing what you hate doing.

But seriously, talk to people about it. Law school is absolutely not what you think it is. It might be better (it was for me), but it's probably worse, and might actually kill you.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Mr. Nice! posted:

Would anyone here mind looking at a pleading of mine and comment on it's quality as a writing sample?
Introduction
Plaintiff has asked this Court to look at a pleading of his. The writing fails to conform to correctitude, and the motion should be denied.

Grammatical argument
Its is the possessive form, "belonging to it." It's is the contraction of it is. Plaintiff wrote it's instead of its, which is incorrect.

Conclusion
The laws of this Court's great jurisdiction are clear: Plaintiff's argument fails, and his request should be denied.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

SlothBear posted:

I never understood the complaint about closed book tests. Everyone is playing by the same rules, sure your answer is less perfect but so is everybody else's. It's all on a curve, right?

Especially in bar prep classes if the idea is to prepare you for the bar exam, until that's an open book test the prep for it should be closed too.

Closed book: forces you to memorize more, prepares you better for the bar, lowest-quality answers for instructors to read
Open book: forces you to prepare your notes better, prepares you better for real life "tests," better-quality answers for instructor to read
Take-home final: you can make your life as hellish as you want by over- or under-preparing, most like real life, best-quality answers for instructor to read (provided there is a page or word limit).

There's good reasons for each, but generally, I think closed book is the least good idea. Synthesis > mimesis, and if you haven't committed anything to memory in an open-book exam, you won't have time to finish the exam.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Dumbest question on my Contracts I exam, where not once did we discuss the judges in any of the cases, worth 10% of the grade:

“Which judge do you believe had the most significant impact on the law of contracts, and why? Use specific cases in your discussion.”

If it were "person" rather than "judge," I would have picked Karl Llewellyn.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Discendo Vox posted:

Karl Llewellyn

Richard Posner

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

A battle of store-brand Scalias is pretty cool, but that one had too many pages.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009


You don't have to be a Savoyards expert to see he's the very model of a rabid murder animal.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Phil Moscowitz posted:

I too think it’s important for lawyers to represent fascists when they justify making children sleep on the floor in cages. How can we know that their representation is bad just because we think it is now? Maybe in fifty years we will think separating children from their parents and putting them in cages to be sexually abused and die of easily preventable diseases was, in fact, good. Lawyers arguing for slavery are important too—without them who will push for people to be enslaved? Who’s to say really it’s very complicated

Maybe in fifty years we will see some difference between defending despicable state actions and defending despicable people from debatable state action. If 2020 is any indication, 2070 could have some weird stuff!!!

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Loucks posted:

Not a lawyer even though I’m still considering law school just for kicks.

My experience is that people phrase it this way because they don't want to say why they are actually considering it--maybe they fear being told their real reason is dumb, maybe they fear being told it's a bad idea (it might be) or they don't have what it takes (you probably do, if you have a college degree). There are a few good reasons to go and more bad ones, but either way, if you pursue it, you'll get asked why you're doing it A LOT and will probably be happier with a better answer than kicks.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Nice piece of fish posted:

Had a lot of presidential value

I am writing this joke down now so that I can be hilarious outside this thread in November.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Vox Nocua

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Look Sir Droids posted:

Please don’t say “ACB.”

My understanding from this thread is that the correct sentence would be "Who knows what ACAB thinks."

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Nonexistence posted:

You'd have to hang a shingle or go to a non-lawyer profession where having a jd is a pay boost like banking or govt


Or find a solo attorney whose business is taking off faster than they can manage and they don't relish the thought of hiring a very young person who went straight to law school out of college. I am finishing law school as an old person and found such a situation.

You could also consider forensic accounting.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Hellblazer187 posted:

This sounds good. This sounds very good. Big dollars and easy poo poo are like, the two things I want out of life.

You may have to duel other experts in your reports and testimony, which won't always be easy, but you get to charge tens of dollars for that too.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Declan MacManus posted:

i'm studying for the lsat, i'm gonna go to law school. i am on a quest to not spend any money in this process as i have been told it is a bad idea (both to do it and to spend money on it).

-i have spent only $85 out of my own pocket so far, to cover the cost of study materials (mike kim's book which i read maybe a third of and then a service which i'm receiving a steep discount on because of the next thing)
-i applied for and was denied lsac's fee waivers but appealed it and was approved, so two tests and my first six packaged applications are being paid for.
-my practice tests are in the 165-170 range; i'm signed up for june's lsat and i'm hoping i can test closer to the 175+ range.

i'm 30 years old, i hosed up my undergrad experience by being sad and having undiagnosed adhd so i graduated with a 2.45 ugpa about 8 years ago (my school didn't do grade inflation, but it's not MIT so whoopsie); it's not impossible for me to end up at a t14 school just incredibly unlikely but my goal is to get into a t1 on a full ride (i have family in dc so george mason seems promising) or failing that managing to land somewhere with decent clerk placement (wustl, vandy, florida, fordham, etc.) and failing that going somewhere decent to live with as much scholarship money as someone will give me.

not strictly looking for advice or anything (you won't change my mind and i will freely admit you have told me so), i just know that not a lot of 0Ls post in here, on this, the lawyer thread in the dead comedy forums, and nobody i know personally actually cares that much about all this worthless yet specific knowledge i have filled my head with.

I think you missed the big bubble on full rides anywhere, unless you have a characteristic or five that will make you attractive to schools. I went back to law school even older (just graduated in December) with a full ride to a low-ranked school. Because of that full ride, I don't have any regrets about it -- I really enjoyed law school a great deal, and not in the Toona way -- but after a year as a law clerk in litigation work, I realized I absolutely do not have what it takes to do that specific job. The expectation was that I would write, more or less continuously, for 8-12 hours per day, 5-7 days a week. I am a good writer and could not do it and had to quit. Not only that, the things the other side and the other side's counsel would do were frankly appalling. It's a profession that attracts a lot of lovely, miserable, and extremely broken people.

Nobody is going to talk you out of it, as you said. I am not even trying to talk you out of it. I am, however, urging you to talk to as many practicing lawyers as you can, like loving yesterday, because it sounds like you do not know what you are getting into. And you can't just look at what an attorney is doing now and think "well that sounds pretty good, I could do that" because it leaves aside what you will have to do to get there, what jobs you are likely to get right out of school, and your odds of success generally speaking. My path forward to six or low seven figures was through the door marked "do this for just a few years" and could not see myself surviving it. YMMV.

A full ride or close to it is the only way to go, because it's the only way you can walk away from the smoldering crater still smiling, if you have to.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Vox Nihili posted:

I strongly recommend being fluent in Spanish if you actually want to commit to the type of work you've mentioned.

I have seen a couple dozen job postings that really want proficiency in a language other than English. They usually specify the language, but do not always.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Declan MacManus posted:

the most economical choice to a better life would be to learn a trade

Also economical would be a reputable coding boot camp program, if you are on board in general with drudgery that pays well and occasionally rewards creative thought.

You could also look at a second degree. The second undergrad degree is an unusual path and would likely require you to pursue either a non-liberal arts degree or at least a non-B.A., depending on your local schools' curricula. Normal government financial aid would probably not be an option. On the other hand, you would need fewer credits, because your previous undergrad degree would fulfill many/all liberal education ("general") requirements.

If what you actually really want is a master's degree, talk to your nearby graduate school about taking graduate classes as a non-degree-seeking student. As far as I know, all schools have this mechanism, though it is seldom used. The classes wouldn't count towards a hypothetical subsequent master's degree unless somebody high up deeply loved you, but you can show them (and any other schools, via your new set of good grades) that you are capable of the work in that discipline.You also get to find out relatively cheaply whether grad school is right for you. Having done both, I will tell you that academic graduate work is much harder than law school. Professional master's degrees (e.g. an MBA) are different still and vary a lot. Executive MBAs, at least, let you in based far more on your professional success than your GPA.

A law degree would also establish a new GPA, but because of the curves in law school classes (especially with your competition in a T14 school!), yours is likely to be unspectacular. Also, advanced academic programs really care most about academic (rather than pre professional) grades, and care about grades in their specific discipline far above all else, so a law degree won't open that door much.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Ur Getting Fatter posted:

Kind of a weird question but I'm doing some research and need a real world example of how a US judge would order a forensic audit done on the electronic devices of a big company (specifically, Google). Does anyone have any precedent or articles I could look up?

The specific scenario is that some time ago the Wikipedia article (and other content that got SEOd to the top) for a local notable person got edited to say some defamatory stuff and Google's information sidebar automatically updated to reflect that info, so for a few hours if you Googled that person it would say something like "Jane Doe - C.E.Hoe of Bitch, Inc.", and now Jane Doe is suing Google for defamation, and as part of the suit has asked for a forensic audit to be conducted Google's servers to determine stuff like how many people saw the sidebar, the sources Google used, it's vetting process, etc.

I'm not counsel for either party, obviously, I'm just writing up a short blog post about it and was hoping to find some background on how an audit like that might even take place in a real country since the local judge clearly has absolutely no idea how to handle this.

I think Google would write "fishing expedition" in 48-point font on every page and any motion to compel production of *the entirety of Google's servers* would instantly fail as overbroad and not proportional to the needs of the case. If you haven't already looked at the Sedona Conference's website, start there.

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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Ur Getting Fatter posted:

To be fair it's dumb that Google just goes around automatically amplifying information with absolutely no human vetting, and they should 100% be held accountable for it, but that doesn't mean that Karen has to get root access to Google's servers.

do you know how much information Google "amplifies," and whether there have been enough humans born in the entirety of human history to actually vet all of it?

I don't know either but my guess is no on both counts

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