|
Can we get a summer to update those graphs? 2007 drat! (still relevant tho).
|
#
¿
Aug 7, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
Thanks for the effort, Phil, here's some charts and poo poo for the OP that you can toss in: Costs Law school is friggin' expensive. Tuition at private universities is up at $46k per year and public isn't much better coming in at $39k for non-residents. That's up about 24% since 2010.  Of course that doesn't count living expenses, which can be significant. Of the top 14 law schools, really only UMich, UVA, Duke, and Cornell are outside high cost of living areas. Have fun in Ithaca! Let's take a peak at a few top school's total cost for 3 years of attendance: And the lovely schools (not top 14) are just as happy to take your money! Let's look at some highlights!
Also you don't "lock in" prices or anything, so expect each year to cost 3% more than the last. And don't forget opportunity cost of 3 years of lost income and the 3 additional years of work experience you just tossed out. Law schools have generally been major revenue streams for universities. It's way cheaper to build classrooms and a library and admit a crap-ton of eager liberal arts majors than to build something actually useful like a laboratory and compete for actually skilled STEM majors. Never forget you're subsidizing all those people who in undergrad could actually do calculus. Debt Of course to finance all this people are going into massive amounts of debt. The AVERAGE graduate is in for more than $110,000 in debt and once including undergrad, amounts exceeding $200,000 or $300,000 with payments of over $4,000 per month are not unheard of.  Salaries Further, lawyers have an EXTREMELY bimodal salary range - the mean sounds OK, but looking at the graph it is clear that the mean means absolutely jack.  With the recent increases in BigLaw starting salaries (at some firms) to $190,000, this is only getting worse! Let's hear from James Leipold, the NALP executive director. "“After all of the publicity surrounding the move to $180,000, I fully expected to see the national median starting salary for law firms move upwards, but what the data reveal is that for the most part only the largest firms in the largest legal markets made that move, and while many offices are paying $180,000 to start, many are not. The result is upward movement in some law firm size bands while the national median has remained unchanged.” And that big ole bump over on the right? Who's in there? Pretty much just people from the top schools. According to USNews, only the top 35 schools have median salaries above $100,000 and things fall quickly from there. If you're outside the top 130 schools, median salary is under $50,000!!!  Trends Since 2014 Around 2014, word finally got out that law school is generally a bad idea, see infra, and applications started to decline. But the decline specifically came from the more qualified applicants. That's right, the smartest, most qualified people were deciding that law school is not worth it. LSAT scores have been in overall decline across the country and many schools are filling their seats with less qualified students (who are less likely to pass the bar) or are closing completely.  So if you're really considering this, you have to ask yourself, "If the most qualified people have decided not to do this, why should I? And here's a few good resources I found: Law School Transparency ABA Employment Outcomes Per School
|
|
#
¿
Aug 8, 2018 04:39
|
|
|
I'd also add that throwing more associates at a matter adds ineffeciencies and information bottlenecks. If a matter has Task A and Task B, it's much easier to have one associate do both. Even worse if you have to split up a task that could be completed by one associate.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 16, 2019 20:45
|
|
|
Go get a job as a paralegal or any other job where you're working with lawyers. If you're having trouble getting in the door, go somewhere and offer to "intern" for free for like 1-2 days per week for a few months, even if that means working 60+ hours a week, which is something you should get used to. Then use that experience to get full time job working with lawyers. Report back in 2-3 years. The correct way to to do this is to first figure out the job you want, then figure out whether you need a law degree (and from what school) for that job. Just dropping into law school without any actual experience of the industry greatly increases the risk of failure. I've always felt that if you're lovely at finding good jobs for yourself without a law degree you'll still be lovely at it with one. It's not some panacea for all your employability problems.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 26, 2019 16:33
|
|
|
I'm in this recent class too and probably a "success" but had a pretty unique situation. Had a good job in the legal field that I didn't need to leave, TTT part time full scholarship, to Biglaw, which pretty much was a happy surprise. I had at least one other job lined up before I even went to school and had other exit options. So, it can be a good decision, but it's for pretty specific situations.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 26, 2019 20:25
|
|
|
JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Thanks friends. Yes, very happy. My Biglaw job doesn't offer much in terms of independent decision making, so that can get a bit frustrating/boring. But, my last job had plenty of that and I'm still learning a lot so I don't mind it for a few years. Plus, the money for what I do is absurd. No. See supra "money." No time machine for me. I worked while waiting out the lovely legal market around 2010-2014 (thanks thread!) then went part time and made it to Biglaw with prior work experience and zero debt. I get a little nervous that I don't know my next move yet, but that's small potatoes and I'm totally playing with house money at this point.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 2, 2019 15:49
|
|
|
This week on Elected Judges and the American Criminal Justice system: Nowata County (OK) sheriff, staff resign over safety issues with jail; sheriff alleges judge tried to bribe her to keep it open https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/sta...80c8ae59bf.html After maybe being ordered by the judge to re-open the jail and refusing to comply... quote:“[The judge] stated to me, ‘Let’s say you go to Greece for two weeks, and when you come back, the jail is open and has passed all inspections and the prisoners are returned.’ Her resignation letter has some more details: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/b33ye1/resignation_letter_of_nowata_county_oklahoma/ No one will argue the sheriff wasted her budget on office signs: 
|
|
#
¿
Mar 20, 2019 04:13
|
|
|
Avenatti indicted in scheme to extort $22.5M from Nike by threatening to expose that Nike had funneled money to recruits. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/sports/michael-avenatti-extortion-nike.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage What a weird 24 hours. Edit : Yikes. "Amazing. Avenatti, speaking directly with Nike's lawyers, allegedly threatened to extort the company. The lawyers immediately called up the Justice Department and set up a recorded sting of Avenatti reiterating his allegedly criminal demands" https://t.co/6PkOUjsH7F Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Mar 25, 2019 |
|
#
¿
Mar 25, 2019 18:46
|
|
|
disjoe posted:Holy poo poo how stupid do you have to be to gently caress with Nike's attorneys like that. Over the PHONE. "The criminal complaint says Avenatti told attorneys for Nike on a phone call he would 'go take $10 billion off your client's market cap... I'm not f---ing around.'"
|
|
#
¿
Mar 25, 2019 19:03
|
|
|
Looking good, evilweasel!
|
|
#
¿
Mar 28, 2019 17:14
|
|
|
I think Relativity is great and have never had a problem. What issues are there? Maybe different versions? I can build any tags or searches that I want. Anything I've wanted to get done, there has been a way. I've dealt with some other lovely platforms and Relativity has blown them away.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 30, 2019 20:07
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:I’m building a portfolio in the hopes that sometime later this year or next I can move out of florida and go somewhere I can actually get paid. Dude, just wanna say go for it. I've felt like your location has been holding you back big time but it wasn't on the table to leave FL, or even your part of FL. I think you'll do much better elsewhere. Good luck! Edit: Also, Yuns, NYC to 200k this summer would be a great start. Make it happen! But seriously I hope you can accomplish some good stuff. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Apr 20, 2019 |
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2019 06:09
|
|
|
I'm going to chime in for our prospective 1L and say that there are definitely a select few situations in which it makes sense to go to law school. Tell us about yourself and let's see if you fit any! The market is also definitely better than what it was 10ish years ago. Still not great but definitely better.
|
|
#
¿
May 18, 2019 21:17
|
|
|
Valentin posted:Finally have the chance to sit down with some of my NY bar review materials (taking it through Kaplan) after wrapping up graduation/family stuff. Am I correct in guessing that much like law school itself, bar prep is going to be a mostly straightforward endeavor which anxious type-A people have overcomplicated with inane bullshit? Not that I expect the bar to be easy, but generally I found throughout law school that my classmates engaged in over-elaborate studying rituals mostly to quell their own anxiety rather than to actually learn, and this looks like more of the same. I'd say, overall, yes you are correct but there are some caveats. The first is that, even if you were pretty relaxed in law school about studying, the stakes are so high for the bar that you can't help but feel some stress and really push yourself. The bar is a pass/fail test given every 6 months on which your future employment depends. As a "relaxed" law student myself, the calculus of when and how much to study for the bar was totally different from school. In law school, some extra studying and stress is mayybee going to move you up half a grade. But for the bar, you've set aside these 2 months to exclusively study, you never have a great sense of when you know "enough", and the consequences of failing are dire (or at least a giant pain in the rear end). I often found myself thinking, "What are the odds the next 2 hours of work make the difference, 1%? .5%?" Even that low it made sense to keep pushing. I passed comfortably and probably "over studied" but I'd do it the same again. Second is that there's just so much material for the bar you're never really "done" studying. It's a constant cycle of learning new material and refreshing the old stuff. It's the truth that you'll never know more law than on the day you take the exam. Also, even if you're going to pass, the acts of taking the test and waiting the 2-3 months to get your results are a lot more pleasant if you feel like you put all you could into studying and were comfortable with the material. Basically, your classmates are probably going overboard if they're pulling 12 hour days, not sleeping, and getting physically ill. But no joke you should be doing 8-10 hour week days and maybe 3-5 on the weekends (with a full day off here or there) for 2 months. And as far as the "rituals", you should just stick to whatever the study plan is from your course, anything beyond that is probably overkill and your course would have enough work to keep you fully busy.
|
|
#
¿
May 29, 2019 16:11
|
|
|
Toona the Cat posted:Did any of you use some sort of flash cards or software for helping to memorize rule statements for essays? Are you going through a test prep company or just trying to do this on your own? If through a company, just follow what they lay out and just keep doing the draft essays (probably in outline form is fine) then compare to the model answer. Try to pick up 2-3 points each time that you missed. If you're just doing prep on your own you should really consider going for a prep program, even at this point. You're shooting for a raise right? So it's easy to justify the cost. If you won't do that, maybe there are similar essay questions and model answers publicly available.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 21, 2019 15:16
|
|
|
Pinky Artichoke posted:I don't think the top big law firms are jumping over themselves to hire (much) older second-career A-/B+ students, so I don't think it's a huge loss for me personally. Sorry for going a few pages back to quote this, but don't assume this is true. It seemed like a trend in my class a few years ago to get people who had worked 2-5 years or even a few folks with entire career changes. I know a few former teachers (not TFA like, years), a reporter, then a few just "business" people. I think the experience is viewed as an asset. Knowing how to write an email gives you a leg up to some extent.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 25, 2019 02:13
|
|
|
You know being a junior Biglaw associate actually isn't that bad for getting the sense of completing a task. A sense of accomplishment not so much, but at least at the end of the day I'm done with something and have sent it off and can do no more. I've actually found it lower stress than prior jobs where I'm responsible for prioritizing multiple medium to long term projects to meet deadlines. As a junior, I just handle what shows up in my inbox from midlevels and call it a day. If you're comfortable telling people "No" when you're too busy, even better. Little partner interaction, no client interaction, not bad. Of course the meaninglessness of my actual work would/will drive me nuts after a few years, but that's a future Fuzzie problem.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 6, 2019 15:03
|
|
|
At least on the litigation side (and maybe this is firm specific), even the on demand aspects of the job aren't too bad. I'd say most of my stuff is 3-4 hour assignments that have 24 hour turnarounds or 10-15 hour assignments that have 72 hour turnarounds. That leaves me reasonable flexibility to get stuff done. I've probably had fewer than 10 true ASAP assignments, and even then, I knew they were likely coming and there was a good reason for the deadline. My firm is great about work from home so even as a junior I'm doing 1-2 days a week.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 6, 2019 20:28
|
|
|
Hoshi posted:2.25x as deadly, I love seeing lawyers try to do math it's the best Wait, not 2.75x, 11/4? I'm a lawyer who is bad at math I just need to know how bad. Edit: gently caress me I suck at math AND reading now. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 15, 2020 |
|
#
¿
Feb 15, 2020 01:21
|
|
|
I was in a vaguely similar situation when I started my evening program. I went for free and I had identified 3 or 4 paths that the JD would help with, including advancing in my job at the time. It's definitely worth doing for free if you are comfortable with the time commitment. My other thoughts are that 4 years is a long time and opportunities may pop up that you weren't expecting. I ended up in Biglaw for example, which was not on my radar at all but has worked out great. Since you already have a good job, a lot of the pressure is off, unlike your classmates. Still, keep motivated during the 4 years on the job side and seek out those legal aid organizations you want to work with, continue to make connections in your current library field, and even maybe consider interning in a firm to get the experience. If your job is flexible and would let you take a leave, maybe even try to land a Biglaw summer associate spot just for the money (and "experience" lol). Basically, there are a surprising number of doors that are only open to students and, even if you already have a solid job/plan, they're worth checking out just to see what happens and to make connections you might not have been expecting.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2020 18:38
|
|
|
Flip Yr Wig posted:Ended up nabbing a 170 on the LSAT. A few weeks ago, I was thinking about that kind of score would make it harder for me to resist applying to a school that I actually have to pay for. But given everything else, I'm barely excited with my big dumb number. Apply to a bunch of schools you'd have to pay for, maybe even the whole T14. Even if you're only going to a TTT and/or evening program, you can use acceptances from higher ranks schools to negotiate scholarships. This strategy made me an easy $50k. Well worth the effort. Fake Edit: I just remembered you might be able to go for free anyway? Still, advice stands for others, even though you're like the only fresh meat we've had in like 2 years.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 17, 2020 17:58
|
|
|
Flip Yr Wig posted:I wonder if that would be seen as a credible possibility, since I've already met with the admissions officer and said I intend to continue working here and am only interested in the part time program. It might be worth applying to my city's other part time programs, though. I need to figure out if I need to request new letters of recommendation for them. Yes! Apply to anything and everything, T14, other part time, lower ranked schools that will give you $$, anything you can use as leverage. You just need one other offer to make it work so just send out a bunch. My part time program increased their offer because I was persistent and leveraged what they perceived as my other options even though I was like 99% sure I was never going anywhere else. Even if the chances of success are slim, the hourly return on the minimal effort is ridiculous. I probably made $50k for 5 hours of "work" of applying and phone calls to "negotiate." Negotiating consisted of me calling admissions like 2x and saying "I'm thinking of going to [other school], what can you do for me?" They said they'd go check with the committee at the next weekly meeting. After like 2-3 weeks they got back to me with a full ride.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 18, 2020 00:20
|
|
|
For anyone considering waiting out the recession by getting a JD, see 1:25 in the video for a view of the kitchen of a law school success story. Neat video though. Good for him. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 18, 2020 |
|
#
¿
Mar 18, 2020 20:45
|
|
|
Been liking this one lately: https://youtu.be/q5OnAkxNH18
|
|
#
¿
Mar 27, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
Rogue AI Goddess posted:It appears that my choice now is between WashU St. Louis with a nice fat no-strings-attached scholarship and Georgetown without one. Given my complicated circumstances, it's not an easy one. Don't you already have practice experience in your country in some form and like almost a decade long career? Do you have a specific job in mind for when you get out? If WashU gets you there then I wouldn't worry about the rankings and I'd take they money. As someone who waited a few years, I think that debt would be a lot tougher to deal with at like 34 vs. 26. That said, negotiate both sides. Ask for more from WashU as you're on the fence and ask for something from Georgetown.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 11, 2020 02:14
|
|
|
With data apparently not previously released, here's the top 100 schools ranked by mean first year salary: https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/median-salaries-by-first-year-law-school-graduates/ The drop is... precipitous. The link name and article title are in conflict, but if that is indeed mean data and not median (probably as the numbers aren't round), this is even a rosier picture than a true expected salary. Even those bottom schools are probably factoring in a handful of $190ks. Yikes.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2020 16:29
|
|
|
My firm has been relatively optimistic, saying we're well positioned. They even mentioned lowering hours requirements to get bonuses. I'm usually pretty cynical, but they have seemed like they're in good shape and made points about our balanced practice areas and talked about how they were able to handle 2008 with minimal damage. I'm also fully aware that everyone will be saying things are fine until they aren't, but so far so good.
|
|
#
¿
May 8, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
Flip Yr Wig posted:I’m glad I did, because I ended up receiving a full-ride from a considerably better school than the one I work for, and I’m starting with an early-start summer class in Crim Law this month. Congrats on the full ride! Now you just need to make sure you don't gently caress this up by- Flip Yr Wig posted:I might as well put something back into the world and go into some form of public interest practice. Oh no.... Seriously though, I'd let other stuff like enjoying the work and comfortable pay dictate your job over some need to repay society over the scholarship. But like you said, you have 4 years to figure that out. Don't feel indebted by the scholarship. It's a business transaction. You're trading you're high score stats to the school for tuition and giving up the opportunity to go to a better ranked school. They're getting what they want out of you and they aren't just giving out money because they're nice. Also, you're working too hard already and taking too many notes, but you're a library type so that might just be what works for you. Anyway, congrats! You'll be realizing how huge the full ride is for the next 15+ years in many different ways. Unfortunately you'll be realizing it as many of your classmates are hamstrung by debt, but it is what it is. Don't feel bad. It's a business and you earned it, or at least we're smart enough to make the system work for you. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 11, 2020 |
|
#
¿
May 11, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
Flip Yr Wig posted:Yeah, I don't actually think that's a sufficient reason to go into public interest law, but it's certainly my main area of interest. If I'm not going to be paying off debt, that makes it that much more viable. Of course, odds are I do an externship at the public defender's office and feel like taking mental bleach bath, so I'm not rushing into any decisions. Also, you should do whatever you can to get a Big Law Summer Associate position. Even from a lower ranked or part-time program you can (pre-COVID crash) get something if you're top 10%ish. It'd probably be between year 3 and 4 for you. Call in your favors at work to see if you can take a leave for the 12 weeks and make bank and go to free social events for practically no work. Do the summer associate thing even if you don't want to end up in Big Law. But if you're thinking of careers outside the library, Big Law with no debt is worth considering. Even if it's not your cup of tea, the job is a lot easier to handle when you don't NEED the money. Knowing you can walk at any time having just made 2-3x your annual salary in any other job is a pretty good stress reliever.
|
|
#
¿
May 11, 2020 23:41
|
|
|
How much are straightforward estate planning docs these days for a couple in a high COL area? I'm getting quotes at like $2k, which I guess seems fair, but I thought I had like $500-$700 in my head for some reason.
|
|
#
¿
May 14, 2020 01:05
|
|
|
Nice piece of fish posted:We have a discord. It's.... Uhhh.... It's a thing alright. How do we join? Do we need DMs? New things are scary!
|
|
#
¿
Oct 5, 2020 19:16
|
|
|
Nice piece of fish posted:First, go to law school. Fuzzie Dunlop fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Oct 6, 2020 |
|
#
¿
Oct 5, 2020 22:33
|
|
|
Worst part of 2020 (so far) is reading this thread, then checking in on discord and finding out I am one of the dirty suses. Sir, I am a lawyer and then some. At least this upcoming week can't be any worse. Good day.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 1, 2020 06:14
|
|
|
nm posted:Your name is fuzzy dunlop, and you're insulted we think you're something some crooked cop came up with to spy on wire communication? Crooked cop I could accept. Forgettable Biglaw loser breaks my heart.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 1, 2020 17:47
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 16, 2024 22:55 |
|
|
And to add more color, this is like the first thing you learn in law school and, even if you forget that class from decades ago, it's so fundamental important in establishing a constitutional claim that it's insane to have no idea what it is.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 18, 2020 01:33
|
|