Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Halloween Jack posted:

A big problem I find with superhero games is that the "superhero genre" includes pretty much everything. So people making superhero games often get sidetracked into making a universal engine. The big example is Champions becoming the Hero System.

Right. To do superheroes, you gotta do super powers, and super powers can be pretty much anything, so either a) the designers provide a finite list of super-schticks to choose from (which provides an easy route to justify supplements to add more) or b) they create a subsystem to allow players to custom build their powers (the Champions route).

I've never managed to be satisfied by either approach; option A always seems to leave out things I want, and option B always seems to become a recondite mess that's too crunchy for my tastes and/or doesn't result in powers that are balanced against one another.

So, like, I'm not sure how fair it is to use that as a criteria for grading, since as far as I'm concerned no one's gotten a passing grade yet, but it's always on my mind.

I'm always on the lookout for new superhero games that can satisfy my perhaps overly-picky standards, but so far the closest I've come are either too abstract to properly scratch my superfight itch (Worlds in Peril) and/or are games with superheroes in them, but not really *about* the superhero genre per se (Smallville/Cortex+). The search continues...

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 6, 2021

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Halloween Jack posted:

Godlike is weird and arbitrary with its physics. If a power's default cost would make it too good, they nerfed it by selectively applying physics. With Intangibility, unless you pay extra points, you can't breathe and you sink into the ground. Invisibility, by default, makes you go blind.

Godlike is also very realistic and deadly. That's fine for its WWII milieu but makes it hard to recommend as a generic superhero game. The GM chapter gives recommendations on building more powerful characters if you want a more "Four Colour" game, but that doesn't really work. [...] The nature of how powers work in the setting also means that you can be able to fight tanks and planes, but be just as vulnerable as the average Joe to e.g. poison gas. (I've only skimmed Wild Talents, so I don't know how much it differs on that front. Maybe it builds in plot armor for "street-level" types.)

Wild Talents is not less deadly than Godlike per se (I always make sure to specifically caveat "do not forget to take some kind of defense power" if I recommend WT to someone), but it does remove a lot of Godlike's limiters on superpowers (like, none of those gotchas on intangibility or invisibilty, and the Willpower struggle stuff that could just straight up turn off your powers is optional), so it allows for a more four-color experience if you build characters right and tweak the appropriate dials. Also, not taking place on a battlefield by default helps some.

edit: But now that I think about it some more, Godlike to WT is kind of apples and oranges, since Godlike is a specific setting with specifically tuned dials for its power range etc, whereas WT itself is a toolkit reverse-engineered out of Godlike to be a sort of superhero GURPS you can build a homebrew game out of-- there are several specific decisions you have to make about power caps, allowed types of powers, character point totals, realism levels (four-color vs grimdark axes), etc. and the book does discuss those.

Comparing Godlike to specific WT settings like Kerberos Club, Grim War or Progenitor is probably more on point, except pretty much nobody's read those I think!

That said...

Halloween Jack posted:

Like, you can spend 200 character points making Golden Age Superman or 200 points making a super-scientist or precog who cannot hang on the battlefield with Golden Age Superman.

This issue is definitely not fixed and is kind of a dealbreaker for me. The power-building system is cool and fun to mess around with and doesn't make my head hurt the way HERO does, but it still doesn't actually work in terms of outputting powers that are implicitly balanced against other powers of the same cost.

Basically, anything exotic or non-combat-focused is going to cost way more than a straightforward "it beats you up" effect: My group's first try at the system was a Read or Die inspired deal where everyone had 1 or a small suite of thematically related powers, and one character invested pretty much all its points into the ability to change the color and opacity of anything he could see, while another spent like 10% on a gun with ten hard dice worth of Stun and could sink the rest into a bunch of hyper-skills and -stats. I kind of don't see the point of going through the whole involved process of calculating how much powers are "worth" if it's not going to prevent that kind of wild disparity... and maybe that's just not possible if combat and non-combat effects are being compared like that.

That said, WT is the game with the infamous "here's how you turn the sun off" sidebar too.

edit:

Halloween Jack posted:

Oh it does, it's just weird and inconsistent with how it applies it. That's mostly a consequence of having a standard formula for how much powers cost (Attacks/Defends/Robust/Noncombat Utility) and then nerfing the ones that are too good for their cost by selectively applying physics.

Or, that. Yeah. Which is even more pronounced when the system stops putting its thumb on the scale!

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Apr 7, 2021

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

hyphz posted:

I did run the demo adventure, as I recall there's some breaks in the system with the different purchasable dice types and stacking multiple actions. The initiative system is also a bit weird by modern standards as it has selection and resolution in different phases.

Yeah, this is one of the wacky things about the One-Roll Engine that makes me want to kick the tires on some version of it, someday-- there's no initiative "roll" per se in combat, players declare their action in ascending order of, I think Sense ratings, the idea being that characters who are more perceptive and/or battle-hardened will be able to read and anticipate the actions of those who aren't as sharp (so a Sense 3 will declare and commit to their action(s) before a Sense 5 does).

And then once everyone has declared their action, everyone rolls simultaneously (so either have lots of d10s or be playing online), because in ORE a skill roll determines the success AND the speed of the action.

So you kind of have a nuanced and somewhat unpredictable flow of combat, where canny combatants have a tactical advantage, but whether or not they can execute those plans faster than their opponent is the decisive factor and not entirely under their control. Especially since your action can be cancelled if someone hits you before you act!

It seems like a useful and fun chaos but I haven't gotten to try it yet.

CitizenKeen posted:

Emphasis mine. Smallville is absolutely not about the superhero genre, it's totally a CW emulator. But how did you feel that MHR wasn't about the superhero genre?

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying was Cortex+Action, not Drama, right? (huh, thought I specified Drama in my post, must have edited it out) Either way, I never got around to playing it.

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Apr 7, 2021

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Coolness Averted posted:

Can someone fill in some of the greatest hits about this dude? Since he sounds like he has a history.

He got banned from rpg.net for responding to criticism of his books by posting black magic invocations wishing Satan cause harm to his enemies.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Coolness Averted posted:

Like an OSR game or author that embraces the silliness of the satanic panic and is writes/stays in character as Bowser's satanist or Simon and Hecubus from Kids in the Hall could be really fun.

I’m positive that’s what he thinks he’s doing. He’s just not, you know, witty.

I can’t find his actual ban notice for spellcasting, but they do bust his balls about it when they let him back in (before he later earns a different ban).

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Tulip posted:

So Phoenix Wright, but also by way of CSI or something. Something with a good ensemble feel to it.
My mind is increasingly going towards a stealth focused game as a good option. The hacking idea CK mentioned before would feel better to me if I knew a drat thing about hacking, but having it be a system where you aren't hacking to kill people but to extort or expose or indict people might be good.

CitizenKeen posted:

Now I'm thinking of a crunchy game like Invisible, Inc., where the three main game modes are social engineering, group hacking, and stealth. You can attack people, but it better be a quick-tap-hide-the-body kind of violence, because any real combat could raise the alarm.


So this reminds me of Black Seven, a crunchy stealth game I messed around with a bit. Out of the box it does have some compulsory (if not necessarily lethal) violence, as you need to disable X number of guards to reach a bare minimum level of non-surveillance to start monkeywrenching things, but combat is non-tactical “roll this to take out 1-2 sentries” and most of the game’s attention revolves around maneuvering into position, managing suspicion, and deciding when to abandon safety/secrecy. It’s not quite what we’re looking for, I think, but it’s a step in the right direction? There’s about an hour of actual play to listen to as well.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Imagined posted:

I've always mentally put Glorantha in the same category as Earthdawn's 'Barsaive': absolutely incredible settings and fluff married to old-fashioned/mediocre rules. I know there's a 13th Age conversion of Glorantha, but AFAIK they only published a couple of books for it.

I’ve always been fond of the Hero Wars/Heroquest iteration of the rules (and it was actually my intro to Glorantha), but with the caveats that I never played enough to hit the systemic pitfalls long-timers talk about, and I think it lost something in its admittedly necessary streamlining into HQ2/Questworlds. I still think the Mastery concept is an ingenious way to handle unbounded numbers-go-up power scaling without becoming cumbersome in play.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Arivia posted:

some of those card names are incredible. "TOO MUCH MONKEY BUSINESS"

Shadowfist is full of incredible/terrible names. Furious George, Orangotank, Titanium Johnson...

I played a loooot of 'Fist during and after college. One of many dead CCGs we picked up cheap, but one of the few that had staying power, and one of the even fewer that eventually came back to life (I think just that and Netrunner). Still have a lot of fondness for that game and Feng Shui.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Tulip posted:

God I want to know what the term for this is and how to advance it as a discussion. Theorycrafting is the best term I'm aware of but that just refers to a subset of actions, not the experience or the generality. My private language for it is "planning as play," mostly because I really love Zachtronics games (e.g. Opus Magnum) where the actual game play is planning out an order of operations and the execution of it is just done for you perfectly.

I seem to recall this being referred to before as “lonely play” but I don’t recall where and google results aren’t making it seem common.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Arivia posted:

I haven’t run it yet, but my dream pre made that I would want to run someday with exactly the right group (other people with specifically training in literary criticism) would be the Dracula Dossier for Night’s Black Agents, since we could just geek out on diction and run the campaign as a thorough deconstruction of the novel itself.


I have sat in on two different attempts by geopolitics wonks to run Dracula Dossier and seen them both admit defeat. Perhaps one day there will be a third.

Conversely, I have tried and failed to run Chuubo’s and admitted defeat, let alone Glass-Maker’s Dragon (and I’ve run Nobilis and WTF). I’ll likely try again someday.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Arivia posted:

In case it wasn’t clear i meant people with English literature degrees and related disciplines, not geopolitics (not sure how that would help???)

You were clear, I was kinda-sorta free-associating.

And sure, you can take a textual analysis lens to DracDoc, but the spycraft/technothriller angle is just as baked in.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

now if you REALLY want an incomprehensible art object disguised as a TTRPG, there's always Wisher, Theurge, Fatalist :v:

WTF is harder to read than Chuubo’s, but my group found it easier to actually play. Maybe we just weren’t ready for such a rules-heavy version of textual analysis.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

FirstAidKite posted:

The pdf also included a coupon code for their line of "gaming scents" to really set the mood of any tabletop game night.




Adventure Scents crack me up. I went to their booth a couple Gen Cons back and did not bring back any gamer potpourri, but I did get this themed cookbook of equal utility;

https://oddfishgames.com/products/cooking-with-dice-the-acid-test

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

FirstAidKite posted:

What are your thoughts on the cookbook, I am considering picking up the pdf maybe some day but definitely not anytime soon.

I haven’t actually used it or anything, it was more of a self-gag-gift. I’ll post more if I can figure out where I put it.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

SkyeAuroline posted:


I don't even know how you would run a zero combat RPG and still keep it interesting, but I clearly can't keep combat interesting either and I'm tired of "kill our problems" being the solution to everything. Even infects my solo game experiments because it's an easy fallback.


I have thoughts but I think we need to unpack the question a bit first.

Is the issue "an RPG is only interesting when the characters' lives are at stake", "RPGs have more interesting mechanics for fighting than talking", or both?

Nessus posted:

I think Alita would work very well for a PBTA system of some kind on the macro-level because it's all about trying to pursue your wild unrealistic goal and then either grow through your failure to achieve that goal, or worse, to achieve it. I don't think anybody in that comic ever actually gets what they want, but by gum they keep chasing it!

Tenra Bansho Zero contains pretty much all of Battle Angel/Gunnm's ingredients (at least original flavor, Last Order and onwards is a whole other thing), along with a lot of other stuff you may wanna scrape off for a purer cyberpunk experience, but the crucial bit is that it 100% commits to the character development bit above, almost as literally as possible-- mechanical development of your character is directly tied to their emotional development (you can also totally go out in an apotheosis of glory like Jashugan). It also has, I think, enough cyberware and martial arts crunch to be interesting without going full Shadowrun gear porn levels. I love that game.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Leraika posted:

I've always found the kijin stuff to be the most numberfuck and least interesting part of TBZ.

I don't disagree, but like I said it's got enough moving parts to play with without becoming completely numbing (I can't even get through Shadowrun character creation any more). I like pretty much everything else in TBZ better but the cyber stuff is fine and gets the job done. Its greatest sin is just being vanilla compared to all the nuttiness of all the other subsystems.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

PurpleXVI posted:

Speaking of death and resurrection... the way I handled it last I made a homebrew was that a single character that "died" in a fight never died, they were just beaten unconscious. They'd eventually recover next time the party made camp, but pick up an "injury," some sort of temporary debilitation. If not treated, said injury eventually became a "scar," a sort of sidegrade based on their randomly rolled injury(like having a poorly-healed leg wound might make your walk an odd hobble that made you move slower but made it hard to predict so it was a permanent passive defensive buff), which it would require expensive medical care or magic to unfuck.

PurpleXVI posted:

I mean, you don't even need to do something directly to the players.

The villain KO's them and they spend the next week or two breaking out of Bad Hero Jail or slogging out of the Chasm of Very Large Snails that he tossed them into, in the meantime, the villain's plans have advanced, possibly even faster than planned because he now no longer has to worry about the PC's for a bit(or, he thinks, permanently) or because he wants to hurry up and complete them because now he knows someone's aware of his plans.

Maybe that advancement of his plans steamrolls Niceville, where the players spent level 1 fighting extra large squirrels and making friends with the townsfolk. Some of them might've died defending their homes, others have had to flee or are now under the oppressive yoke of Big Villain.

If your players actually give a gently caress about the setting and some of the people in it, it's entirely possible to "punish" them for failure in ways that aren't just killing or crippling their characters.

Empire of Dust, a game I apparently never get tired of banging the drum for, had good answers for all of this more than a decade ago; PCs that go to “0 HP” (glossing over the exact combat mechanics for now) are unconscious but can be revived by teammates. If they are damaged further (or take especially nasty kinds of damage while healthy) they are “gored” and removed from the battlefield entirely in a quantum state of health; after the combat is resolved, their player decides if the PC is dead or lives on with a scar of some kind (which equates to stat damage, which isn’t necessarily a big deal due to the way characters advance).

Fights end when everyone on one side is unconscious or gored. A TPK results in a roll on the consequence table, which ranges from left for dead, robbed and left for dead (with a trail to follow), taken captive, etc. I believe it might also potentially include a roll on the long-term consequence table (which also gets used when significant amounts of time pass, the party gets lost or waylaid traveling the badlands, etc) which changes the state of the game’s overall war against Sci-Fi Satan (cities change hands, important NPCs are assassinated, etc), but not necessarily to the detriment of the players.

EoD is great, super fun beer-and-pretzels “let’s go fight some dudes” sci-fantasy van art game.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Shadowfist adapted to run a Feng Shui game could be awesome

The conversation has moved on, but one thing I never got around to doing was dealing a hand or two out of a Shadowfist deck and using that to construct a Feng Shui adventure.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

theironjef posted:

Nah, Everway uses goofy poo poo for character creation (look at five pictures and describe how they're your character!) but the actual mechanics of the game are a 1D10 roll over (or under, it's been a minute).

Don’t forget the Fortune Deck! That is the true spirit of Everway to me, the GM responding to PC action by making a pseudo-Tarot draw and just kind of following the vibes.

That said, Everway had like three or four different suggested resolution mechanics, another of which was just “directly compare stat rating to a suggested difficulty” which may have been a hat-tip to Amber.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Absurd Alhazred posted:

What's a good game that uses FATE as a toolkit properly?

Fate of Cthulhu does a lot of things with it that I never would have extrapolated directly out of Fate Core, mainly because instead of being a generic Mythos game as the title would suggest, it is actually a very specific “using future knowledge and occult knowledge to change the world and oneself” that is about 50% Terminator and 12 Monkeys by volume.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Gray Ghost posted:

I’m curious: is there any room for a new simulationist system that uses dice pool mechanics? I’ve been struggling with both D&D 5e and Invisible Sun’s respectively incomplete and baffling sub-systems and I’ve really fallen in love with Heart’s “Knack” and Difficulty dice pool mechanics.

I feel like there’s gotta be a way to marry streamlined dice mechanics to a really engaging combat and skill system. Ideally, I want to be able to make both those skill and combat systems intertwined rather than separate like 5e.

I would recommend having a look at some One-Roll-Engine games; Reign in particular has a lot of martial arts styles and combat maneuvers as well as non-combat tricks (Esoteric Techniques, I think? It’s been a while) as well as (more abstracted) large-scale political/social subsystems.

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Apr 8, 2022

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

pog boyfriend posted:

the mechanics are so complicated new players will not be able to have a good time but the mechanics are so bad veteran ttrpg players will not be able to have a good time. this system sucks! has anyone here played ryuutama

It’s so wild that they either reinvented or stole In Nomine’s d666.

I have run Ryuutama a couple times! I dig it.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

NotNut posted:

What's the best story-focused RPG like Fate?

Tenra Bansho Zero and Microscope are probably eccentric picks, but they are both designed specifically to create memorable, coherent stories within a single session and I’ve had great results with both of them. On the flip side, it’s a little hard to make ongoing campaigns of either (and Microscope is arguably only technically an RPG, though it is definitely a game where you role-play).

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Once you reach certain levels, you gain the ability to use powers at certain levels reflexively. Once you do so, you no longer require slots at those levels and can use powers at those levels at will, as if you had an endless number of slots available.)

You know, I actually like this as a way of showing growth (Worlds in Peril had a similar schema of “power stunts you can do easily, with effort, and rarely” but I thought it wasn’t well-mechanized). The group check-in during the debrief stuff is also nice, and I laughed at the list of “races”. Wish I liked the basic D&D chassis at all though! Guess I’ll wait around to read when it gets a FATAL&Friends writeup.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

nobilis has a reputation for being impenetrable because everyone gravitates towards 2E, which is a beautiful toilet reading book, an okay game, and a terrible instruction manual, and not to 3E, which is a brilliant game only slightly held back by a superfluous optional lifepath system -- but oh god no it has cute cartoon artwork to save on budget, the horror, the horror

I actually have the opposite take, that 2nd has a whole lot of GM advice and worked examples of play that 3rd almost completely lacks. I like most of the changes 3rd made to the system but I found them less intuitive and more poorly explained in the book proper. Like, I had to read WTF before I really understood what was happening with the mortal-scale action rules.

I also prefer 2nd Ed’s more rigorous rules about what kinds of miracles trump others to the squishier “yes, but” methodology of 3rd, but that’s more an issue of my tastes than a knock on 3. Haven’t read Glitch yet, but I’m looking forward to N4!

… has it really been ten years already? Yikes.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Yeah, I can't even imagine trying to reconcile a game with Nobilis's scope and degree of player power with rules that function on an ironclad basis, despite the latter normally being my preference as well. The best thing about Jenna Moran's work in my opinion is that rather than relying as much on, let's say "the authorial voice" to control the narrative direction of her games, she includes uncertainty by design and then gives you extra-diegetic, contextual instructions on how to resolve it: "if your players care about it, it exists," instead of "if this is what would happen in a detective novel, that's what happens" etc.

I usually prefer a “squishy” resolution mechanic myself, but for a game like Nobilis where genuinely anything can literally happen, I feel like having that kind of mechanical absolutism is useful to the GM so we can quickly determine what happens when the unstoppable force meets the immovable object and then move on to the next crazy thing instead of getting bogged down in narrative haggling.

And I do enjoy a good narrative haggle! I enjoy freeform resolution mechanics because they empower players and open up the possibility space during play. But Nobilis empowers the players and characters so much by default that I think it’s better served by the rules putting on some bounds.

I also think maybe part of it is enjoying the “fiat lux” part of the fantasy of divinity, where you just get to proclaim a thing and it definitely happens (or is outright parried by another god) as opposed to the lese majeste N3’s partial or mixed successes bring in. There really wasn’t anything else quite like Nobilis 2, maybe not even Nobilis 3. It’s me, I’m the Nobilis grognard… except I don’t think I can go back without hacking in Estate Properties, Bonds/Afflictions, and maybe Treasure, and I also kind of don’t want to do the work.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:


Glitch is:

i made a dadjoke about an NPC we just met, everyone cracked up -> i earn XP and the joke becomes true in the narrative

A tiny explosive went off in my brain the day I realized an “experience point” in Chuubo’s literally marks the point at which you experienced a thing.

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 15, 2022

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

theironjef posted:


No but seriously I absolutely agree about preferring flat math to endlessly identical bonuses on either side of a boring stalemate dice war. It just doesn't actually have anything to do with THAC0 or BAB. The choice to let bonuses spiral forever probably had more to do with trying to appeal to video game players who were tuned to love seeing big numbers (though that's entirely conjecture on my part).

I really love the way Questworlds(fka HeroQuest) handles unbounded number scaling with the concept of Masteries. So simple, so elegant.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

hyphz posted:

Isn't this the kind of thing that Summon Skate was designed around?

Ha, good catch! The game even has an investigative component, but it’s more “narrow down your symbol choices from a list” than “figure out what the symbol even is” (i.e., by the time you have to start drawing you already know what you’re supposed to draw, rather than just doodling and hoping you guess right).

I did manage to get Summon Skate working on a Roll20 map, but it wasn’t the smoothest experience.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

xiw posted:

There's a fundamental problem with the alignment systems used in rpgs that hasn't really been touched on yet

Everything that's actually interesting about moral behaviour in fiction is about inconsistency and regret and when people make decisions that don't mesh with the rest of their selfimage. To produce interesting games we have to go out of our way to actually make choices that produce this kind of situation - having an alignment or virtues or ethical guidelines on your sheet actively kneecap anything interesting happening, because they shortcircuit player decision making and make it really obvious what choice is the 'correct' one to make in any given situation.

Like, in a TTRPG, you don't actually have any costs for taking actions that match your character's selfimage - it's not actually challenging or interesting in any way to follow a code of conduct or similar, because you just do it, there's no laziness or distraction or doubt or anything that gets in your way of 'hmm, i'm a paladin, i do paladin things'. Exalted had the same issue with virtues - if you see valor 5 on your sheet, you're not going to try and run away because it feels like you're playing wrong, same with compassion etc.

But the most interesting gameplay comes up when characters in the fiction do things outside of their defaults - the paladin is thoughtless and causes harm, the baddie is struck by compassion, a character's focus shifts. The mechanics should be about incentivising this kind of behaviour - if I make a Valor 5 exalted character, punishing me for trying to run away is completely rear end-backwards because obviously i'm just ... not going to.

Set up the mechanics instead so we can do 'my selfimage is the person who never runs - let's have me fail at that, and we can explore what that does in play'

This is the core gameplay loop of the Cortex+ Smallville RPG and it loving owned so hard. Instead of ignoring the source material’s penchant for melodrama and cheap irony it mechanized it by giving incentives for characters who valued Truth to lie, lovers to betray one another, etc. The most excellent example of Ken Hite’s dictum about bad media making for good gaming.

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Sep 5, 2022

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Splicer posted:

Are there any crunchy games with Wound/Injury/Madness analogues but no HP/Stress analogues? You can gain qualitative problems but there's no number counting down?

I’d almost forgotten about this, but Legends of the Wulin (Fatal &Friends writeup) works exactly this way, no HP or alternative damage tracks at all, any and every source of damage, curses, emotional distress etc are modeled as Chi Conditions, which are most similar to Fate Aspects but have their own distinctions (most notably that they aren’t linked to a resource economy and can be created as either carrot or stick; i.e., “be bound by this condition and get a dice bonus” or “be bound by this condition or get a dice penalty”).

LOTW is streamlined from its previous edition Weapons of the Gods, but still several steps crunchier than something like Fate thanks to its interest in making lots of mechanically distinct martial arts. That said, I think 3.x and onwards D&D is extremely high crunch and that’s probably a lot of people’s baseline…

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 22, 2022

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

PurpleXVI posted:

Every time I've tried to parse Legends of the Wulin, my brain has just refused to understand it. I'm not sure if it's down to the rules, the way the rules are presented or down to me, but I just cannot manage it.

I put an incredible amount of effort into parsing and running the sample adventure for the downright recondite Weapons of the Gods, so Wulin seemed much easier to grasp, but I am extremely Jenna Moran poisoned at this point and have run Continuum more then once so my mind has likely been bent out of shape by so many tomes of forbidden wisdom.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

KingKalamari posted:

I'm talking about the problem the magic system and the wizard's relationship to it causes for implementing psionics in other editions that are still working off some version of the Vancian casting system.


I don’t think their actual spell list really bears this out, and I’ve never seen any designer comments on it either way, but when I saw the original version of the Sorcerer in 3.0 I immediately saw it as an attempt to implement the “I have mysterious spell-like abilities that don’t use the standard Vancian system” aspect of the psionicist without either devising a completely unique subsystem or having to deal with the genre-busting ‘70s sci-fi baggage.

(And then they brought psionics back later anyway, Because It’s Tradition)

Much like I always thought of 4e’s Warlord as implementing a version of the Bard-style support class that didn’t have the aesthetic baggage the Bard had accumulated (like, there’s two guys swinging swords, one casting a spell, and then another one jamming out on a lute?).

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

I think it’s kind of un-groggy to say “hey, this engaging action-comedy story is actually completely unsuited to being adapted back to the game it’s ostensibly based on, let me name-drop some other games that are actually in the same spirit”. I remember having these thoughts about a lot of the D&D novels back in the day (and those thoughts led me to leave D&D for some of the very games mentioned in that post).

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011
I feel like almost any RPG ever written would struggle if you’re looking for literal logarithmic character advancement at every single stage of mechanical improvement. The old DC Universe RPG from Mayfair did in fact work on a logarithmic scale (every point in a stat was twice as strong as the one before it) and I think there’s a retroclone of it (Blood of Heroes, I think?), so that’s probably your only reasonable starting point if that is really genuinely what you’re looking for instead of something even slightly more abstracted.

Either that or some points-based supers system like Hero and just give everyone like another couple hundred build points whenever they hit some story-based milestone to unlock the next stage of their potential.

Parkreiner fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Mar 25, 2023

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Huh, my first encounter with the concept was this book:

https://www.publishersweekly.com/9780553561166

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

AmiYumi posted:

Oh, no, is this looking fucky? I kinda stopped paying attention to Kickstarter project emails because of personal life stuff, but it's depressing how many times I picked the wrong horse.

So many projects with 1,000+ comments, but not the good kind like you want.

You made me double-check whether OVA shipped, since I recalled getting my copy (not that I’ve played it…).

I dunno, it’s certainly not good when stretch goals don’t materialize, but I put that as a lesser sin than just straight up not delivering the core product. I have a bunch of RPGs I kickstarted that got the main book out and some to none of the stretch goals, but I think Mountain Witch 2nd ed is the only one that completely fizzled on me.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Leperflesh posted:



Instead of six scores measuring how good you are at things, you have six scores representing things that undermine you and hold you back. That way when you roll you're already anticipating disappointment and failure.

Doubt
Indecision
Fear
Distraction
Ignorance
Decrepitude

It’s been quite a while and I don’t have it to hand, but I recall Pelgrane’s Dying Earth game (and likely its non-IP descendant Skulduggery) having ratings for six archetypal character flaws like Pedantry, Lechery, etc, and in play you had to roll to resist giving in to your worst impulses at inconvenient times.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011
I like the idea of Negotiation a lot, but yes, in my one stab at running RM (via the very complete and complex QuickStart adventure, mostly for ease since I did read the full book first) it was really just Way Too Much to get your head around at the very start of the game, especially since it then has almost no bearing on gameplay during the actual mission.

I like Red Markets 1 very much as an artifact and a statement of intent, but it probably does need a lot of editing and adjustment to be a good game manual.

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Shrecknet posted:

Matt Forbeck just published the Marvel Multiverse RPG and going through it, it has the same problem every super hero game has: enemies are created exactly the same as heroes, which means if you aren't using AIM Lackeys or Doctor Octopus straight from the book, as a GM, you're gonna have to actually create, from scratch, every. single. villain. which is exhausting and taxing on the GM. When will more games understand what 4e did, that monsters and heroes are different and serve different purposes and should have different creation rules?

I feel like this is one of many ways in which the superhero genre as seen in comics is a surprisingly poor fit for an RPG game, or at least ones built along the tactical wargame lineage of D&D. Like, whenever a superhero has a significant power boost or addition to their power suite it’s a really big deal that usually comes along with its own storyline and usually goes away eventually, whereas in RPG circles it’s kind of unusual if characters do not continually make incremental or sizeable improvements in power and skill.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Parkreiner
Oct 29, 2011

Nehru the Damaja posted:

Any suggestions for an RPG with oldschool gonzo fantasy feel (e.g. crazy violence, wild sci-fi crossover, and a heavy emphasis on weird poo poo) but without trying to go all OSR in mechanics?

Empire of Dust.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply