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DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Randalor posted:

Jesus Christ the 2nd amendment was the worst thing to come out of the US, and that's including the racism at this point.

It's not like the two things aren't connected to eachother.

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DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Jaxyon posted:

That makes some of their voters get a sad, which must be avoided at all costs.

If they just pretend it will be fine.

Which of their voters? Despite the frankly pathetic efforts of their non-piece of poo poo friends and family to try to explain away the clear and present evil of the Republicans they happen to love, I honestly don't think there would be a single one who gave a gently caress at this point. What is there left of the mask?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

the_steve posted:

Yeah, but they usually have their kids in "good" / private schools.
I mean, I don't have the numbers so correct me if I'm wrong, but the schools getting shot up are your bog standard public schools, aren't they? Not usually the schools in the rich neighborhoods where a politician is going to have their kids.

Maybe they were referring to the voters instead of the politicians? Either way they literally don't give a slightest poo poo about dead children who are not theirs, and honestly don't seem to care that much about their own children either considering the recent years.

Jaxyon posted:

People vote for evil poo poo telling themselves they're good people. Even if that fig leaf is paper thin.

The slight distance of not saying it out loud matters to those people.

I feel like there has been so much poo poo said out loud lately that they would find a way to cope with this too. Empathy is largely a weakness for Republicans.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

DarkCrawler posted:

Maybe they were referring to the voters instead of the politicians? Either way they literally don't give a slightest poo poo about dead children who are not theirs, and honestly don't seem to care that much about their own children either considering the recent years.

I feel like there has been so much poo poo said out loud lately that they would find a way to cope with this too. Empathy is largely a weakness for Republicans.

Speaking of:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/28/tim-burchett-republican-nashville-shooting

quote:

“It’s a horrible, horrible situation, and we’re not going to fix it,” Burchett said. “Criminals are gonna be criminals. And my daddy fought in the second world war, fought in the Pacific, fought the Japanese, and he told me, he said, ‘Buddy,’ he said, ‘if somebody wants to take you out, and doesn’t mind losing their life, there’s not a whole heck of a lot you can do about it.’”

...

Asked whether there was a role for Congress to play in preventing tragedies that are exceedingly common in the US while being exceedingly rare in the rest of the world, Burchett responded: “I don’t see any real role that we could do other than mess things up, honestly … I don’t think you’re going to stop the gun violence. I think you got to change people’s hearts. You know, as a Christian, as we talk about in the church, and I’ve said this many times, I think we really need a revival in this country.”

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

pencilhands posted:

surely even a dyed in the wool republican voter would be pissed off at this

r-right?

For a split second maybe, then they remember how much more pissed off they are at the existence of trans people or black people and move on.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

BiggerBoat posted:

Post-indictment poll: Trump surges to largest-ever lead over DeSantis

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-indictment-poll-surges-lead-desantis-151150006.html

Good to know that being impeached 2x and being the first president in history to be indicted is one for the plus column. I guess one could argue that it's similar to Clinton's approval bounce after he was impeached but I think it's more along the lines that him Trump being charged is proof and validation of the deep state and all that poo poo. WHy are they so loyal and why do they love this person so much? A person who is incapable of love or loyalty and who throws under the bus then shits on everyone and anyone he's ever worked with the second they're no longer useful? Prior to that they were "brilliant" and just "the best people". But it's never Trump's judgement that's at fault. It's their character.

I think the slavish devotion from the Christian right is the one that gets me the most. THe thrice divorced adulterer who bangs porn stars is god's chosen hero for america.

Because they are terrible people with or without Trump. They aren't loyal to him, if tomorrow he admitted his wrongdoing, championed gay and trans rights and endorsed a national curriculum that taught American history accurately, they would drop him in a split second. They are loyal to the hatred he spews out, and they would switch to a more better source of it if one should appear.

The problem is not Trump, the problem is not the Republican politicians, the problem is the everyday Republican living right next to you.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

TheDisreputableDog posted:

Do you guys think it’s possible that poor white people in flyover, industrial burnout areas have legitimately been victimized in the last 50 years?

The moment a victim becomes a victimizer it is irrelevant either way.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Mellow Seas posted:

It would be ridiculous to claim that the rural poor and denizens of hollowed-out metro areas haven't been victimized. To say their situation is "self-inflicted" is just as wrong as when conservatives say it about poor inner city blacks. Blaming them for being poor because they voted for a pro-poverty party would be akin to blaming the urban poor for being oppressed by police because they vote for pro-police politicians.

The sunglasses-in-the-Ram-in-the-parking-lot-of-his-exploitative-small-business-unhinged-rant-video bougie conservative caricatures aren't the entire party, most Republican voters are people who haven't examined their own ideology at all and don't think about politics almost ever (like most Democratic voters.)

The reasons why an poor inner city black Democrat votes for pro-police politicians is because their survival as people is predicated on a complex web of clawing out all possible revenue that has never been given to them due to being enslaved and/or excluded from society and the social support system of the country for hundreds of years. Sometimes that includes participating in the political machines of their respective urban areas, and there has not been a political machine that was not tied to the police force in some way since police forces were invented.

The rural poor vote for pro-poverty politicians because they hate black people, immigrants, Muslims, women, Jews, LGBT, and so on being equivalent to them in a society. Their entire way of life used to be predicated not on pro-or-anti poverty but not being excluded from society and having a superior position in that society to the above mentioned groups, until MAYBE the last 30-50 years or so when they were relegated to closer to those groups in power and status by the increasingly urbanized middle class and the wealthy.

For the first, pro-police is seen a necessary evil that they try to actively mitigate to the best of their ability. For the second poverty is seen as the consequence of other excluded groups being included more in society, and getting a bigger share of the pie of full societal participation. They try to actively mitigate that participation so their own share of the pie is bigger. They were fine with social programs and social progress pies as long as it was white-only, and if they can make it white-only again you would see them being fine with it again.

To say neither have not examined their ideology or don't think about politics is insulting.

- The former have a very clear understanding of what keeps them above the water and can't help but think about politics on a daily basis because it is directly tied to their survival. They are completely correct.

- The latter have a very clear understanding of what KEPT them above water (using the former as a raft) and have a very clear understanding of what is the right way to regain that situation. Fascism. They are also completely correct.

Just because someone has not thought about their ideology and politics from the perspective of most of the people in this forum does not mean they have not thought about them. Republicans have. They very astutely see that they have always been hosed over by the wealthy and the middle class, their antecedents were fine with this as long as the trickle down was restricted to them.

Maybe self-inflicted is not the best descriptor because the situation for them has never changed. But they have never been victimized to the degree of the actual victims of American history and have no claim to stand on the same boat.

Republicans are evil, they are not illogical, or stupid. They simply have different goals coupled with non-existing morals beyond the basic imperative of being nice to their in-group, how they want to meet their goals is perfectly logical and has worked for them and people like them well enough until very recent history.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Apr 3, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

TheDisreputableDog posted:

This is the heart of the matter - poor white people are the only group the left feels empowered to punch down on. Taking a poor white person whose direct environment is endemic with worse education, lower real wages, shorter lifespans, more violence, and rampant drug use and sneering down at them about white privilege and claiming they aren’t “real victims” is exactly how we got Trump.


No, we got Trump because a large part of United States are lovely people. Poverty is not correlated with being the kind of a piece of poo poo who votes for Donald Trump. Poverty is not an excuse for obviously evil and immoral actions.

I'll punch down on people who aren't white and are more poor than I am and try to gently caress over others. It is just that there usually aren't any people defending them so there is not much need.

quote:

“Republicans are evil” feels good in a juvenile way, but from a realpolitik perspective, that’s not a solution. Seventy-five million people (about 2 in 10 of them minorities!) aren’t going away. Put another way, you wouldn’t hand-wave Muslims away as evil because their belief system and be used to oppress and cause violence, right? People are products of and influenced by their environments.

There are plenty of realpolitik solutions to the problem of Republicans. Do you think rural poor in other countries possess as dominating of an influence?

And say, Islamists or Wahhabists are evil as much as Republicans are evil. Conflating a single political party with a worldwide religion is pretty juvenile, by the way.

Mellow Seas posted:

There are white people in the US who absolutely have not been kept above water, there are white people who were born underwater. And I really think you overestimate how much people in politically homogenous areas (i.e. pretty much any reasonably remote area in the country) think about politics, or the outcomes of their actions in the voting booth. (Meanwhile, the ones who do think about politics are being blasted with unanswered propaganda every day of the week.)


Literally everyone thinks about politics and everyone who goes to the voting booth thinks about the desired outcome for that action. The desired outcome for a poor white Republican is for other people who are oppressed to suffer more so there is more left for them of the trickle down, not to change anything about the trickle down.

You once again mistake lack of political knowledge for the lack of political thinking or conception. I can guarantee a poor person does not consider politics less than you - they may not be able to analyze it to such a deep degree as you do, or have the energy to execute their political wishes even just by voting, but they consider politics on a daily basis. They are consistently faced with the negative end results of those politics.

quote:

As for urban blacks, I was excusing their voting for politicians like Adams and Frey, which I find very understandable, so I don't need you to defend that choice to me.


I am defending them in that though both groups are looking to survive, one is looking to do so through victimization. Thus their own status of being the victim - of the same thing every non-wealthy American is a victim of - is not really relevant.

quote:

Eh...

I hate to play the "you don't live here" card but the poverty rate for US whites is almost 8%. That appears to be 40 times the poverty rate in your country. For blacks it is 100 times what it is in Finland. I really don't think you're accurately envisioning what these people's lives are like and how little time or mental energy it leaves for any kind of personal philosophy.

It's not just a different perspective from politics-obsessed goons, it's an entirely different depth. Their intellects (which I am not disparaging) are not engaged on any of these issues whatsoever. Their biases, while unconscionable and abhorrent, are completely unchallenged in their day to day lives, and in fact encouraged.


None of that means that they are not thinking about politics any more than an illiteral miner isn't thinking about structural safety because they are not a middle class engineer. They may not express the same issue with similar concepts or in similar environs but they consider it among their groups and debate the related issues with what they have.

Everyone has a philosophy, even if they don't have the words to communicate it effectively or even a desire to spread it. Very few people are completely apolitical and every person who claims to be so is usually revealed to have very specific political opinions and desires that are under the mask of "idc".

quote:

I agree with the overarching point you've tried to make over the years those who can challenge those biases should, instead of keeping their mouth closed for social convenience. (Bear in mind that there are a lot of ways to challenge them that are unhelpful or counterproductive, here is some info about that.)

Personally I don't really see the logic between thinking these people are political blank slates immersed in the heart of American right-wing propaganda that has turned them into *points at your average Republican* while also believing deprogramming them is even possible by a non-professional except in the tiny minimum of lucky cases. It doesn't seem to have much data to support as particularly effective by amateurs either.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 3, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Mellow Seas posted:

Sorry, but this is about the same level of cogent analysis, and about equally useful, as saying poor people are poor because they're lazy or wicked. Tell me, is there something in the water that makes Americans lovely? Something about in their genes?

I feel like this is the classic European arrogance of "well of course if we had a diverse population, my society would be cool about it and not close ranks around our dominant ethnicity." Many of your neighboring states have already demonstrated what a load of hooey that was. You have not been challenged by this aspect of human nature the same way the United States has. (Yes, this situation is a direct result of our history of subjugation and slaughter of non-whites, but everybody alive today already had that baked into their cake when they were born.)

I'll accept that a large part of the United States are lovely people, sure, but I disagree with the idea that they are particularly unique in that respect.

We're being challenged by it on a daily basis and the reaction is very similar to Republicans in some people. In some countries where the rural poor have more power through gerrymandering it has already resulted into a very Republican-like situation. In the countries where they aren't given extra power they are not. The cities where there is more diversity vote less conservative, so it isn't directly tied to the amount of minorities in your near-vicinity either.

I don't think Americans are uniquely lovely, I think you give more power to your rural poor, as represented by the political system, and I think the lovely people are more tolerated and more excused in your society.

I don't excuse the local people voting for fascists. They are also lovely people. They are a minority through a more logical political system and less tolerance and excusing of their poo poo.

If anything it is the Americans who cry that I can't possibly understand America who make the excuse there is something uniquely lovely about their piece-of-poo poo relatives or fellow Americans that means that I can't call them evil.

Rappaport posted:

I'm sorry to butt in to an American conversation, but it might help you to know that Darkcrawler's nation just voted the reactionary, racist party as the second largest party in our parliamentary system in Finland. Turns out there's racists in Europe too!

And percentage of the population is...20%, BTW.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Apr 3, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Epic High Five posted:

20% sounds about right, that's the share of total population Trump got in 2020 and he only got 1% less in 2016. He also got the least amount of votes between the top 2 each time, or would've if these votes were actually for the President and not a non-binding statement of opinion for one of the relative handful of people who actually get to vote for POTUS. Most democracies as designed have a red carpet laid out for any conservative minority (by design and declaration, it's not a conspiracy) so I wouldn't count yourself as in any better a position than we are, just maybe not as far along the path just yet.

Percentage of the voting population, not the total population. Total population is one out of ten. Definitely in a much better position than you are.


Rappaport posted:

Sure, but a naive approach to the "don't phone granny anymore" tactic would suggest that it should be less, no?

And in a parliamentary system, those 20 percent add up! It's not like Cock got 51 percent, either.

Why should it be less? Like half the parties refuse entering a government with them outright, that is definitely a point for the "don't call granny" method rather than against it. And even if they get into government there are multiple obstacles for full space fascism unlike in the United States. I have never claimed that anything in my approach is meant to make these people dissappear, that is entirely a fabrication by people who are pissed off about calling their evil relative evil.

If you find me a country where at least one out of five voters are not raging racists I would be surprised.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Rappaport posted:

But doesn't your "don't call granny" tactic kind of fly in the face of this? You (general you) would want more voter engagement, if we presume 20 percent are useless then there are those who are not. Right?

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Fister Roboto posted:

It's not that simple though. It's not like they're being presented with honest and objective facts and they're just deciding that they'd rather gently caress over minorities instead of have a better life. The problem is that they are being told over and over again that the minorities are the reason why they don't have a better life. They're being told that voting to gently caress over minorities IS voting in their own interests.

It IS voting in their own interests and they are deciding to gently caress over minorities because of that. That the people they vote for are not directly addressing ALL poverty is completely, 100% fine for these people. They want minorities not to have access to the trickle-down that has always been what non-wealthy Americans get. They are not looking for improvement in social support, job training, etc. or for any other solution until they are aware and certain that minorities are not provided access to it.

Stop trying to pretend these people are tricked. If they all were comfortable they would still vote to gently caress over minorities, like so many other Republicans are and do. Because they are lovely, terrible people with lovely, terrible morality where the main goal is to gently caress over minorities even if that has no direct effect on their own financial security.

Rappaport posted:



You're right, that was an awful post, I'm sorry. I suppose what I meant was that if roughly 40 percent of Finland votes for reactionary right-wing nonsense, what hope does America have? Of course you are correct that the US has fewer checks and balances, as it were, so their elections carry more weight.

Not all right-wing nonsense is equal or even reactionary (NEOliberalism) or fascist. I don't think roughly 40% of Finland votes for the type of politics exemplified by the Republican Party - full blood and soil politics.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Apr 4, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
California is not wealthy because of government policies, but the wealth is more accessible to the wider population due to them through progressive legislation, even if that wealth is not represented by direct money but spending on various aspects of society. Not massively more but enough to mitigate some of the worst effects of the wealth concentration of the highest echelons. No difference if you are say, homeless, but...better weather usually at the least?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Epic High Five posted:

DC if you have any interesting comparisons or observations stemming from being a foreigner watching all this from afar compared to your own system that is fine, but making broad declarations as to the fundamental nature of all of American voters when you dont live here or participate in our dumbass fake democracy is a doomed endeavor I'm going to once again ask you to stop. Direct that energy locally, or if you think a fascist rightward lurch is truly impossible there and the left is ascendant forever take that argument to FinnPol or whatever.

Uh, I can back anything I say about Republicans with actual evidence-based data and studies if they are requested. They are not requested.

For example:

TheDisreputableDog posted:

You are objectively, demonstrably wrong. White, blue-collar workers voted for Bill Clinton, and their lives continued to get worse. Thirteen percent of Trump voters also voted for Obama, without which the contest wouldn’t have even been close. Those people aren’t racist or motivated by race.

There’s no dearth of valid criticism to level against the right, but painting the voters as one dimensional cartoon characters isn’t one of them.

Why do you believe African-Americans to be the only minority group Republicans hate? Obama was anti-gay marriage and turned on that, anti-illegal immigrant, not a woman, etc. Why are you limiting this specifically to anti-African American racism? I said "minorities", that is a pretty wide swatch of people.

I am not objectively wrong until you prove that all those people were full on huge social progressives. Maybe the anti-black dichotomy just was not their cup of hatred?

It is far from the only one.

DarkCrawler posted:



Because I somehow expected that somethingawful.com is the last place one would have to elaborate on the numerous ways that the Republican Party and it’s supporters are awful, but ok.

Republicans are loving terrible and it is a great thing that these Republicans all of you know and love just can’t loving wait to prove me right every time they are asked, otherwise I might have a hard time proving their adherence to fascist ideals and policies en masse.

So obviously, the vast majority of Republicans either support Donald Trump, think Donald Trump himself is too controversial or too crass but his aims and politics are okay, and think that their political representatives should follow him.

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/ncna1279062

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/02/12/a-large-share-of-republicans-want-trump-to-remain-head-of-the-party-cnbc-survey.html

https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2021/new-marquette-law-poll-finds-majority-of-republicans-favor-a-trump-run-for-president-in-2024.php

https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3810

They have abandoned recognition of democratic elections if they lose them, alongside with countless other anti-democratic aims, supported by the majority of the party:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/22274429/republicans-anti-democracy-13-charts

Voting rights are opposed by the majority of the party.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/04/22/republicans-and-democrats-move-further-apart-in-views-of-voting-access/

Immigration of really any kind is opposed by the majority of Republicans, with particularly vicious attitudes towards illegal immigrants. 84% want THE WALL.

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/research/public-opinion-survey/republicans-and-democrats-different-worlds-immigration

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2B919J

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/republican-views-on-immigration-are-shifting-even-further-to-the-right-under-biden/amp/

Oh boy, race relations. When a full 70% say that American culture and way of life has been worse since the loving 50’s, 62% think it is integral to American identity to be born in America, 53% believe racial diversity is a weakness, a third think increasing diversity is negative, 54% think there is no such thing as systemic racism and 80% think that race poses no barriers to anyone in society, I think you know where we’re going here. 87% oppose Black Lives Matter.

https://www.prri.org/research/competing-visions-of-america-an-evolving-identity-or-a-culture-under-attack/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7974595002

https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?uncertainty=true&annotations=true&zoomIn=true

Abortion, obviously. 63% want it to be illegal.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/246278/abortion-trends-party.aspx

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/06/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases/

Gun control? 44% think the current situation is a-ok, only a third want stricter gun laws.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/03/24/poll-views-gun-laws-after-atlanta-boulder-show-even-deeper-divide/6963810002/

Vaccination? Only a rough half have vaccinations at all, and only a third are willing to take boosters.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/02/politics/booster-partisan-split-analysis/index.html

Drugs? Probably not surprised that 59% of Republicans are against decriminalization.

https://www.cato.org/blog/poll-55-americans-favor-decriminalizing-drugs

Environment? Well, according to the vast majority of Republicans we are neither facing a climate emergency, and nearly half believe human activity has nothing to do with climate change.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.y...-185118987.html

LGBT rights? Lol 61% oppose the 2021 Equality act and think discriminating based on sexual orientation and gender identity is just great.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-poll-shows-americans-overwhelmingly-oppose-anti-transgender-laws

Religious freedom? You know aside from loving 68% believing that God has a specifically granted America a special role in history and 63% believing that being Christian is important to being American…do you need more on this topic? Because there is more, like 74% believing Islam is opposed to American values and way of life.

https://www.prri.org/research/competing-visions-of-america-an-evolving-identity-or-a-culture-under-attack/

Police brutality, well 79% of Republicans believe that police killings of African-Americans are isolated incidents, so you can probably divine the rest there

https://www.prri.org/research/competing-visions-of-america-an-evolving-identity-or-a-culture-under-attack/

Now you can find individual disagreeing in every case, but not a single loving Republican disagrees with most of those or finds ANY of them a deal breaker.

Furthermore, saying that 13% of Trump voters voted for Obama is in no way limited to the rural poor white blue collar voters:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-trump-democrat/2017/08/04/0d5d06bc-7920-11e7-8f39-eeb7d3a2d304_story.html

At no point did I claim there are no non-racist Republicans actually purely motivated by economic interest. It is just that after the Bush era it was pretty clear you needed a Democrat to secure faith in the markets amidst McCain appointing a proto-Trump as VP and his campaign imploding. No doubt some people voted for Obama because of that. Them not being racist specifically does not mean they are not some other form of bigot OR that they aren't amorally simply interested in cash.

If you want to stay in the topic of the discussion about the white rural poor, in your words "the only group the left is comfortable in punching down", limit your data to that. How many percent of the Obama-Trump voters were rural poor whites?

If there is a reason the above reply is not somehow according to rules or a valid line of questioning or does not provide evidence but is instead an unsupported "broad declaration" I would like to have some other justification for that besides "you are foreign".

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 4, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Yeah, "they" being poor rural white Republicans, the topic of the conversation. I didn't think people were talking about well-off people when considering self-inflicted economic damage. What percentage of Obama-to-Trump voters were rural poor whites?

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 4, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
Compromise with any Republicans, anywhere by any means, sucks.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Name Change posted:

I struggle to think of how you could more shame yourself as an institution or bring down a bigger shitstorm of negative attention from all directions.

This makes their supporters happy. America is not a democracy, and in Tennessee most voters are the type of people happy about this anyway, so they only have to care about their supporters. There is no negative attention from that sole direction.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
Fascists are never not a minority and thus even if they are dying (debatable) minority their lack of majority support has never been the deciding factor in their success. Either the government defeats them because they are viewed as a threat to their power or the opposing political party defeats them because of the same. If they fail in that, they gain power and it is left for society or a foreign power (or former with the help of the latter) to defeat them after they do enough poo poo.

They never just go quietly in the night and everyone who counted on that historically did not end up having a lot of fun. Fascists are mainly incredibly incompetent people, they win when the opposition is more incompetent. Establishment Democrats can eke out comfortable blue islands to sustain their careers until the end of time and I am pretty sure that is their actual goal so they are competent in that. The Left Democrats and competence don't exist in the same hemisphere.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Apr 8, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
When mine-related things gently caress up your energy and they're not even actually mining anything physical...

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
The exploratory committee: "We've come to the conclusion that...you're black. So no."

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Vahakyla posted:

Requiring them to drag their rear end into there and out of there is genuinely good for democracy.

Is there any country where this has had an any sort of positive effect on democracy? Especially in the case of United States I seem to recall plenty of times it was used to prevent democracy, by preventing some representatives from being present by tricks or physical force. I really don't personally give a poo poo where the voting happens as opposed to how they vote.

Blind Pineapple posted:

like a normal person, the white homeowner shot him through the screen door, went outside and shot him again.

If this isn't attempted murder....

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Apr 17, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

...it's literally stopping it right now, that's why its a topic of conversation. it's forcing McConnell and Feinstein out.

Uh, stopping what exactly? Is there a positive effect on American democracy when you have to be seriously injured or a demented vegetable to be maybe carted out of politics because you can't make it to a particular room?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

cr0y posted:

Saying that we need to let people do everything remotely is basically saying "well if we make them come in then it will just be a tool to obstruct". The problem is they will do that anyways, oops I don't have cell coverage, sorry I didn't know the vote was taking place, etc etc.

My main argument for making people physically be in a chamber to vote is that it makes it harder for an elected official to treat the office like a side hustle.

...it really does not seem to make it hard in the slightest and politics being a side hustle seems to be more a rule than a exception. Personally I like living close to the politicians I vote for from an influence standpoint, and I don't see why that should be the case for only those living in the capital. If a politician wants to benefit from their office, they do it regardless of the method of voting. Their success in that depends on the levels of corruption in the country in question. I'm not sure if there is any country where you can vote without being present so it is

But it really does not seem to preclude any of the things people say it precludes. Like the corruption in United States is pretty drat open regardless of them having a second home in Washington D.C.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Sorry if late but the United States, for example? The first vote I ever was old enough to cast was 2012, yet 2020 was the first time I voted while inside the US

I don't think you are an U. S. Representative...?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

TheDisreputableDog posted:

I brought it up in response to a statement that abortion can never be framed as wrong or unethical.

Based on some of these responses, I hope there’s never a genetic/developmental test that predicts a fetus’ orientation or gender dysphoria.

You can do completely mundane things for unethical reasoning. You can make objectively GOOD things for unethical reasoning. Why is this relevant?

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Mooseontheloose posted:

i know we've talked about this before but who votes for these dipshits. Who honestly believes that this is the most PRESSING thing in America? Like I kinda get the low tax people because at least it effects your paycheck in some way but who goes, YEP this is the thing that's going to make my life easier.

Republican supporters, to whom oppression for minorities is the main concern and political goal. Someone knows a non-wealthy Republican? Related to one? Friends with one? The reason why they are a Republican is to specifically make the life of a minority or multiple minorities bit more of a living hell, and believing anything else is a coping mechanism. It is not about making their own life easier and really never has been. This is also a reason for most of the wealthy ones but they actually benefit on a personal level as well.

TheDisreputableDog posted:

I’m talking about morality, not legality - you said abortion is never wrong, but there’s real and demonstrable harm being caused by the way it’s being selectively applied, right?

It is being selectively applied because of various other societal factors. The act of abortion itself remains morally meaningless.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Apr 21, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Judgy Fucker posted:

What data do you have to support this? Even personal anecdotes? How many Republicans do you, personally, know in real life?

This data to start with:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4028078&pagenumber=23&perpage=40#post530950726

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

to those of us who actually have to live under republicans, grew up with republicans, grew up with literal klan kids sitting in the desk next to us at school-

you really don't get what makes them tick no matter how many times you repeat your same hot take and we have enough problems trying to make this place ok without needing yet another loving foreigner telling us how everyone knows the truth except the people who live this poo poo every day, not forums days, the actual irl days of our lives

you do not know or understand how these fascist fuckers work. nobody needs you to explain them. please stop.

Your fascist fuckers are not special or unique, the same things motivate and drive them that have driven and drive fascists in other places. Unless you can actually demonstrate what it is that I have missed or don't understand beyond vaguely defined nativist appeals, I'll keep on describing Republicans with accuracy, thanks.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Judgy Fucker posted:

Your cited articles do not back up the claim "The reason why they are a Republican is to specifically make the life of a minority or multiple minorities bit more of a living hell...It is not about making their own life easier and really never has been." That is an egregiously spurious extrapolation of opinion polls of registered Republicans, and not "Republican supporters."

I have a feeling based on your non-reply you know zero Republican voters in real life, and why would you? You live in Finland. If you actually knew the average person who votes R once every two or four years you'd know how full of poo poo you are.

The vast, vast majority of people who vote in Congressional and Presidential elections don't know anything about politics. They don't know what the GOP or Democratic platforms are. They aren't thinking about how awesome it would be to keep People of Color or queer folk down. They vote based on tummyfeels or legacy bullshit like "I've voted R my whole life and I'm not about to change" or "Republicans are the business party." That's it. I've even met a person who has unironically told me they vote for the candidates who had the most yard signs they saw on the way to the polling place.

You know nothing about this country and really just need to shut the gently caress up about it.

(I don't know of any Klan kids I sat next to but otherwise everything else is the same)

It is not actually possible to know the average Republican personally, and I don't know why you think knowing a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of Republicans makes you or any other single individual an authority on the issue. That is why we determine the dominating currents through wide-ranging interviews, polls, studies, etc. And over literal decades we have a pretty clear picture of what it is that makes a fascist.

I already posted why it is infantilizing and downright offensive to paint people whose conception of politics is different or less articulate from yours as "not knowing anything about politics" or not being political actors. Refer to that.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=4028078&pagenumber=21&perpage=40#post530923996

You seem to believe that a single statement about why someone votes is an accurate picture as to their political conception, without any other exploration of their political beliefs. If you would bother to do so, you might actually find that their conception of what the world is or ought to be matches very well with the Republican philosophy. Legacy voters are not political tabula rasas who pull the lever like automatons.

Someone who votes based on yard signs is obviously not a Republican. I am not sure what your goal is with that anecdote.

Nativism is not substitute of actual arguments and one sentence is not the entirety of someone as a political actor.

Gumball Gumption posted:

Yeah, you're wrong about what drives fascism everywhere else. You're a moralist and moralism doesn't say much about how the world actually works. Your entire philosophy is "evil people are evil and I know they're evil because they're the evil people with the evil people signifiers" and no one can actually do anything with that.

That's not my philosophy, though. That is your lie about my philosophy that you are unable to support with actual evidence.

CuddleCryptid posted:

Are there a lot of white nationalists in Finland, a nation where by American standards your entire population is already white?

10-15% of the population. There are non-white people here, including myself.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Apr 21, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

the_steve posted:

Other people already posted links to studies proving trans athletes don't have the advantage that critics claim they do, but my kneejerk reaction was "Well if you concede that trans athletes shouldn't be allowed in sports, then you're tacitly admitting that you are not a 'real' man or woman, that you are some sort of Other." and that just seems like ground you shouldn't want to give up.

To my knowledge there is not a single case of someone going through gender-reassignment surgery just to benefit in sports. In fact I think there was an East German athlete who was actually kept from transitioning to a man. The East German athletes were also doped with enough steroids and other illicit poo poo to sustain a decade of Mr. Universe competitions. I feel like any person who was willing to undergo surgery or even simply lie about their identity, just to win in a given sport would probably have crossed that particular disqualifying bridge already.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Grimnarsson posted:

Isn't there a bit of a difference in accounting when comparing a multi-party parliamentary system and a two party system? If Finland had a two party scheme then plausibly the white nationalists would be part of the right-wing umbrella and therefore anyone who voted that big party would be a fascist, inflating the numbers. I think that might be a factor.

Yes, a two-party system is far more suspectible for potential radicalization and the Overton Window. At least after the lessons of WWII in mind for European countries in particular. Still, you have examples, the Tories probably being the Ur-Example (de facto If not de jure two party system due to FPTP).

The Republican Party is not fascist because fascists are a part of it. In its tenets, communications, ideals, political goals, and so on, it is specifically an openly white nationalist, anti LGBT, anti-immigrant, Christian dominonist, anti-democratic and atrocity/genocide denialist party as much as it is say, openly capitalist. A vast majority of its voters ascribe to one or more of those bigotries and they are core tenets of the party platform. Fascism is not a part of the coalition, it is the primary driving factor.

Pure Capitalism is the secondary factor, for a minority, and they certainly have the wealth and education to not miss on what their tax cuts were built on.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Mellow Seas posted:

The New Jersey suburbs offer a contrast and illustrate the potential economic benefit of building.

New Jersey seems to be one of those "location is key" success stories but built around housing as opposed to trade, which is pretty rare to my knowledge beyond the level of individual suburban cities as opposed to states. I suppose the tiny states of the Northeast megalopolis count in a way but Jersey is more densely populated than any of them regardless. Even "the Garden State" seems like clever marketing for people looking to live cheaper/less polluted than NYC or Philadelphia. And because many of those people are still wealthy, you get huge taxes.

I mean obviously it is not all of its economy but seems to be the foundation all of it is ultimately built on. I don't think any other state is (on paper) as thriving by many statistics while also having as lovely of a reputation. Kind of fascinating how much being next to New York can affect your general media image.

DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Apr 22, 2023

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Dubar posted:

What is the functional purpose of having children undress in a communal space anyway? It seems like the stripping of privacy and imposed shame are the point. That experience was probably the first clear memory I can have of anxiety, and that is without any added baggage from dysphoria

The functional purpose of it is the cruelty and humiliation that all Republican voters either desire or are completely ok with the full knowledge that their vote advances it.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Willa Rogers posted:

:confused: I think you either misunderstood some context or don't realize that this doesn't occur only in Republican areas. Locker-room undressing is standard at just about every school & athletic facility in the country, although there are usually a few nods to privacy barriers for those who require them.

Sorry, mistook this as a reference to the genital checks proposed for youth sports by the conservative movement.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

Gyges posted:

It's because they almost entirely are unaware that trans men exist. No matter how many times it's brought up, it just goes in one ear and out the other. It's the same thing as it was with gay men and lesbians.

They're aware. Willful ignorance is not ignorance. Don't attribute things that are clearly the byproduct of active malice to unawareness. It is more efficient to take about evil male perverts hunting your daughters when trying to paint transpeople as child molesters, so that is what they go with.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
What if this is Murdoch plot to somehow pin the Smartmatic case on Tuck-Tuck :v:

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
There is black on white of Carson making GBS threads his pants over Trump. He would be eaten alive.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
What progressive could even conceivably run against Biden without it being a total humiliation? I don't think anyone besides maybe AOC having anything approaching Sanders' profile.

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DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
Kamala seems almost depressed to be where she is and I don't think she will run after Biden, anyone planning that would be doing something more. But she won't be dropped from the Biden ticket.

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