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Pieter posted:It's always the same pattern in these Apache attacks, with extra bombs dropped on severely wounded people. Isn't that a war crime? It's basically that or leaving them to die of their wounds (which chances are, won't be too long). If the enemy wounded are lucky, they'll be in shock or unconscious before then. So yea, it can be viewed as morally correct to at least ensure they die quicker than they otherwise would. EDIT: Just saw the 'off-topic' warning.
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Jul 19, 2012 01:25
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The Scarlet Hot Dog posted:To be honest I think the general media is trying to bunch a dozen groups into one simple package as the 'Free Syria Army,' for convenience. It's just not that simple. There are a huge amount of groups including true freedom fighters, fundamentalists and all kinds of other splinter groups currently in play in Syria, each with their own agenda. Just another way Assad is holding the country together 
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Jul 19, 2012 01:26
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truth masseuse posted:Reportedly, Mustard Gas, Sarin, and possibly VX. I thought VX gas was something Michael Bay made up for "The Rock", that poo poo is real? 
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Jul 19, 2012 02:10
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keyframe posted:I thought VX gas was something Michael Bay made up for "The Rock", that poo poo is real? Yes. The good news is that it doesn't melt you or turn you into a mutant in that movie before you die. The bad news is if a 10mg drop touched your arm, you'd be dead within minutes from your diaphragm spasming enough that you can't breathe.
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Jul 19, 2012 02:16
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keyframe posted:I thought VX gas was something Michael Bay made up for "The Rock", that poo poo is real? Pubmed offers some good stuff on its effects. Pretty disturbing stuff. May Sean Connery save us all. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=methylphosphonothioate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)
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Jul 19, 2012 02:18
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Banano posted:No, because they are merely combatants, therefore we can do absolutely anything we like to them. not really the main elements of international humanitarian law are 1. distinction between military targets and civilians, 2. proportionality, 3. not inflicting unnecessary suffering (plus treatment of POWs, etc) 1 has come into question recently since people are just going to claim "well we're fighting an irregular force!! it's not like they make themselves easily distinguishable from the civilians they hide amongst!! plus that baby looked threatening", but tearing wounded dudes apart from a helicopter may well fall within what's punishable under 2 and 3 then again, international law, ICC, laughing stock, etc
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Jul 19, 2012 02:20
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EDIT: Off-topic, don't want to catch a warning so I'm dropping this
Chortles fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 02:24
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^^^^ Mod threw us a warning for getting off topic. So...
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Jul 19, 2012 02:26
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HSBC is laundering money. Helping sanctions-busting by Iran. Turning a blind eye to massive cash transfers out of a Mexican border area infested with drugs gangs. Refusing to cut off a Saudi bank suspected of having links to al-Qa'ida. Funnelling hundreds of millions of dollars in suspicious travellers cheques from Russian "used-car salesmen" through Japan to the US. Ignoring its own employees who warned that the bank was awash with dirty money. A US Senate committee has just published a list of HSBC's failures to catch suspicious transactions and clamp down on money laundering, and it is a very long list indeed. A laundry list, if you like. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/accused-hsbc-in-the-dock-7953539.html I like how too big to fail has become a washing machine to terrorist organizations.
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Jul 19, 2012 02:33
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MoonTuna posted:I like how too big to fail has become a washing machine to terrorist organizations. Jesus, can't we declare that the banking industry is a clear and present danger to America and its interests and have their CEOs, chairmen, and board of directors gitmo'ed?
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Jul 19, 2012 02:38
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Young Freud posted:Jesus, can't we declare that the banking industry is a clear and present danger to America and its interests and have their CEOs, chairmen, and board of directors gitmo'ed? I'm fiscally conservative. So I would prefer summary executions. For them, and some politicians on both sides of the isle.
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Jul 19, 2012 02:40
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Pieter posted:It's always the same pattern in these Apache attacks, with extra bombs dropped on severely wounded people. Isn't that a war crime? The reasons why the pilots finished off wounded combatants are tough. The fact that it happens sucks. But there was a need a to do it in this situation. You're in a situation where you have many armed combatants approaching US soldiers. It's up to you and your wingman to prevent an engagement between the two, so you pick off the combatants a few at a time. Some are left wounded, but possibly able and willing to pick up their weapons and continue fighting. At the same time, there are still other able-bodied combatants running around. You're left with two choices - you can leave the wounded alone and take the chance of them firing at and possibly killing the approaching soldiers while you try to stop the other combatants, or you can kill them and remove that possibility. Even if all the able-bodied combatants were down, you still wouldn't be in a position to determine whether or not the wounded would continue to fight. Vertigus fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 02:47
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SexyBlindfold posted:i am very sad about Bruno being probated, I would love to see what he's got to say about this new development of the zionist plot
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Jul 19, 2012 02:50
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MoonTuna posted:HSBC is laundering money. Between LIBOR and this we really should just start the  and be done with it in a quick and clean manner.
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Jul 19, 2012 02:51
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The Entire Universe posted:Between LIBOR and this we really should just start the
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Jul 19, 2012 02:54
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The Entire Universe posted:Between LIBOR and this we really should just start the It would be interesting to see an American-spring, so to speak. Though, nothing really violent. Just a hey, James Inhofe, step down or...ya know...accidents happen. e: It's 5am in Damascus right now. Wondering what the next several hours will bring. Kempo Yellow Belt fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 02:56
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The Middle East's biggest Star Trek Voyager fan is also coming to the conclusion that Syria is now in a state of civil war. King Abdullah II also goes on to talk about the threat from chemical weapons, which seems to be becoming a big part of the narrative right now. I've got to imagine that the FSA are getting a great deal of pressure from outside to secure those stocks as soon as possible when (not if) Bashar falls. http://blogs.aljazeera.com/topic/syria/king-jordan-warns-full-out-civil-war-syria
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Jul 19, 2012 03:13
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truth masseuse posted:It would be interesting to see an American-spring, so to speak. Though, nothing really violent. Just a hey, James Inhofe, step down or...ya know...accidents happen. truth masseuse posted:I'm fiscally conservative. So I would prefer summary executions. For them, and some politicians on both sides of the isle. Even Newt talked about caring about animals.
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Jul 19, 2012 03:23
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Mans posted:You mean like a peaceful protest were in cities all over the country people make protests about income inequality and market\bank deregulation while the state makes sure the big companies never collapse? Occupy was a failure. Things are just going to get worse...gently caress it. 
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Jul 19, 2012 03:28
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Section 31 posted:He's actively making comments in this blog Bruno is just another idiot 22 year old Canadian with more money than sense. I don't really see the appeal in setting him off.
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Jul 19, 2012 03:37
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Kaal posted:Bruno is just another idiot 22 year old Canadian with more money than sense. I don't really see the appeal in setting him off. Pssh. Of course a member of the JIDF is going be dismissive of The Truth.
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Jul 19, 2012 03:38
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Nenonen posted:I wonder how the Assad clan reacts to a relative's death. The last thing Putin wants to do right now is have his people see him as open to revolution against brutal governments. Brown Moses posted:I wonder how Iran will react to this sudden turn of events. Any think there's a chance of military intervention from Iran? Iran (openly) moving their military in to Syria would be pushing their luck and make sanctions against them just come that much bigger and faster. Plus the less military force they have at home, the less people they have to put down any potential uprising like a resurgence of the green movement. If I were an Alawite in Syria I'd have probably fled the country by now because if the rebels don't take out their anger via some ethnic cleansing I'll be shocked as it'd mean those forces have all managed to temper their previous hatred towards the group. Capt Murphy posted:I love Western hypocrisy regarding democracy in the Arab world. Yes I realize you voted for him, but you voted for the wrong guy. You should probably realize that this is the same mindset the western world has for its own elections. McDowell posted:Maybe the rumors of mass defections were from an order to use chemical weapons on the people? If that were true we'd have heard about it by now as soldiers would've been very vocal on something of that scale. If you're given an order that makes you go from supporting a guy ordering you to shoot your own citizens, to defecting, you are going to tell people why.
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Jul 19, 2012 03:48
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truth masseuse posted:Occupy was a failure. Things are just going to get worse...gently caress it. People are too comfortable. When the overall comfort level falls enough, the people will begin to revolt. Main difference between the US and the Middle East is that they don't have easy access to Xboxes over there.
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Jul 19, 2012 04:01
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J33uk posted:King Abdullah II also goes on to talk about the threat from chemical weapons, which seems to be becoming a big part of the narrative right now. How long are neighboring states going to tolerate Assad's radio silence before they start agreeing that someone really should secure those chemical weapons? Maybe it's just their media portrayal, but the FSA doesn't seem anywhere near as organized or unified as the NTC was when it basically took over things in Libya, so does anyone really feel comfortable with leaving things in their hands?
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Jul 19, 2012 04:47
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Edit: I think I misunderstood you. Never mind.
zero alpha fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 05:04
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Does anyone have any idea about how Iranian civilians feel about the FSA/Assad conflict? I know the Lebanese generally support it, and Nasrallah continuing to support Assad makes Hezbollah look bad, but is the situation in Iran different? I ask because I'm wondering if they wouldn't be as eager to throw more support behind Assad in light of these new developments if it meant rocking the boat domestically. Gonna be an interesting day. VVVV Yeah, we're definitely not in Egypt anymore. There's far less of a consensus about what post-assad Syria should look like than there was with other Arab Spring countries. It's going to be a tough situation for the Syrians to figure out. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 05:29
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cgeq posted:How long are neighboring states going to tolerate Assad's radio silence before they start agreeing that someone really should secure those chemical weapons? I'm concerned that a post-civil war landscape could be much more brutal than what is currently going on. I don't think anyone outside of Syria is in much of a position to do anything about it other than try to bring the parties together and hope for a peaceful solution. Winning a revolution is the easy part, maintaining it is an entirely different thing.
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Jul 19, 2012 05:55
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Can anyone get a translation on this alleged FSA document? It supposedly details who died in the bombing and how it was executed. edit: And this video, which is mostly a lovely night vision of the Damascus skyline taken early in this morning, is particularly interesting because around the :26 mark you see what appears to be a few bursts of AA fire into the night sky followed by a notable explosion on the ground around :40. While the AA could be video artifacts (although it seems pretty linear), it seems to suggest that someone in the city is putting up AA resistance against aircraft that might be conducting bombings. I suppose it could also be illumination flares, but the trajectory seems to place doubt on that. MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 06:05
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Young Freud posted:Jesus, can't we declare that the banking industry is a clear and present danger to America and its interests and have their CEOs, chairmen, and board of directors gitmo'ed? You might have a problem with that since HSBC is a British bank.
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Jul 19, 2012 06:08
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In response to the Apache video: I think since the US has been actively fighting Islamic militants in the last decade that the general position has been that no enemy combatant is truly neutralized until he is completely 100% dead. We arent fighting nazis anymore, a gunshot wound isnt going to make a hardcore Taliban fighter want to surrender to save his life. These people want to die, and take an American soldier with them in the process. If one of these guys isnt dead then they might have enough energy to detonate a suicide vest or pick up a rifle and take out an American soldier. It reminds me of a very controversial video from the Falluja operation in 2004. A bunch of marines are in a building with dead insurgents all over the place. One of the marines sees one of the insurgents move, and the marine shoots and kills him. Now you would think this would be a major war crime, and legally speaking it probably is, but the fanatics these marines were fighting routinely were wearing suicide vests and I dont blame this particular marine for killing this insurgent and potentially saving the life of himself and his fellow marines. Im not saying its right to kill an enemy thats already wounded, but like Ive pointed out I totally understand why they are doing it. And I would feel far worse if US soldiers were getting killed because they are trying to follow a Geneva convention that doesnt make a lot of sense when fighting religious fanatics.
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Jul 19, 2012 06:13
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:You might have a problem with that since HSBC is a British bank. If anything that would make it easier. No law restrains us in dealing with so-called "foreign nationals."
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Jul 19, 2012 06:13
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http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2012/7/18/syria-and-beyond-live-coverage-un-talks-damascus-fights.html#disqus_thread That blog cites a twitter saying that fixed wing aircraft are over the city. The AA fire could be FSA against that, maybe?
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Jul 19, 2012 06:14
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Charliegrs posted:In response to the Apache video: I think since the US has been actively fighting Islamic militants in the last decade that the general position has been that no enemy combatant is truly neutralized until he is completely 100% dead. We arent fighting nazis anymore, a gunshot wound isnt going to make a hardcore Taliban fighter want to surrender to save his life. These people want to die, and take an American soldier with them in the process. If one of these guys isnt dead then they might have enough energy to detonate a suicide vest or pick up a rifle and take out an American soldier. This is a grotesque apologia for barbarism. You should be ashamed of yourself. "Legally speaking this is probably a major war crime, but I don't blame him for doing it?" loving Christ, man. "These people" don't want to die, they want the U.S. occupying forces out of their country.
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Jul 19, 2012 06:14
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Augure posted:This is a grotesque apologia for barbarism. You should be ashamed of yourself. "Legally speaking this is probably a major war crime, but I don't blame him for doing it?" loving Christ, man. "These people" don't want to die, they want the U.S. occupying forces out of their country. Im pretty sure jihadists want to be martyred. You know, the whole going to paradise with the 72 virgins thing? Why do you think suicide bombers are so prevalent in conflicts that involve islamic fighters? And like I said, Im not apologizing for "barbarism" But Id rather see a half dead insurgent get a bullet in his head than a US marine get blown to pieces trying to provide some medical aid to said insurgent.
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Jul 19, 2012 06:20
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Charliegrs posted:Im pretty sure jihadists want to be martyred. You know, the whole going to paradise with the 72 virgins thing? Why do you think suicide bombers are so prevalent in conflicts that involve islamic fighters? And like I said, Im not apologizing for "barbarism" But Id rather see a half dead insurgent get a bullet in his head than a US marine get blown to pieces trying to provide some medical aid to said insurgent. You either have a child's understanding of the last hundred years of Middle Eastern history, or you're doing a pretty poor job of trying to troll a very informative thread. e: looking at your post history I see that you post in this thread fairly often, so how in the goddamn hell can you still think this way?
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Jul 19, 2012 06:24
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Just a reminder that mods said cut the Apache talk. Maybe rules of engagement could be its own thread? edit: And if the FSA is putting up even limited AA in Damascus proper I'd say that represents a noteworthy step.
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Jul 19, 2012 06:27
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Augure posted:This is a grotesque apologia for barbarism. You should be ashamed of yourself. "Legally speaking this is probably a major war crime, but I don't blame him for doing it?" loving Christ, man. "These people" don't want to die, they want the U.S. occupying forces out of their country. Just a reminder that the Taliban are complete pieces of poo poo who will continue to murder their own people with or without a U.S. presence there. There's room for debate about how that situation should be handled (although not in this thread), but I don't have any more sympathy for these people than I do for Assad's soldiers getting executed. Vincent Van Goatse posted:You might have a problem with that since HSBC is a British bank. It still was a top ten bank in the United States. Swiss and French banks also have huge influence here in the States. Edit: Truthers in Syria http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/18/in-wake-of-damascus-killings-a-bizarre-scene/ quote:The attack took place in the heart of Damascus. And Van Hoorn reports, “Nobody has given me a good explanation for how it could be that only one hundred meters from the site of the supposed blast, people were just acting as if nothing had happened. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 06:36
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On topic please. Nobody gives a gently caress about your moral outrage at what another poster said. If you absolutely have to continue discussing it, make a new thread.
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Jul 19, 2012 07:21
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Volkerball posted:Edit: Truthers in Syria I wouldn't dismiss this yet. The situation around these attacks remains unclear, and it may have been a coup attempt rather than an FSA bombing. Are there any photos of the bombed area? That video captured near the site really does look as though nothing happened.
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Jul 19, 2012 07:29
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MothraAttack posted:edit: And this video, which is mostly a lovely night vision of the Damascus skyline taken early in this morning, is particularly interesting because around the :26 mark you see what appears to be a few bursts of AA fire into the night sky followed by a notable explosion on the ground around :40. While the AA could be video artifacts (although it seems pretty linear), it seems to suggest that someone in the city is putting up AA resistance against aircraft that might be conducting bombings. I suppose it could also be illumination flares, but the trajectory seems to place doubt on that. To me it looks it might be a ricochet. If they were truly trying to put fire on an aircraft they probably would've shot at it for an extended period.
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Jul 19, 2012 07:46
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