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the best moment in my thief 3 replay was early on when one of two hostile guys who are part of the, two unique sidequests that appear in the first day of the open world and then completely stop occurring, exited their Zone and just ran around murdering random people for no reason. and then everyone pinned the murders on me and started killing me. thief 3 ends with a mildly annoying boss character chasing you throguh the open world while you... put plot items in plot receptacles to activate a plot beam. so it's basically the same thing. god late ion storm games just. they just suck. they just aren't finished. they don't work. deus ex is also unfinished but at least deus ex still kinda works. you're so broken by the end of deus ex that you can largely charge through everything it throws at you. you can do the same in thief 3 cause enemies are so stupid but you can't really do that in invisible war cause all of the enemies have annoying long range super lasers and a ton of hp and you have piddly guns and a universal ammo system that makes the very act of shooting a gun feel wasteful in a bad way
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Jan 26, 2022 08:41
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I should replay Anachronox some day
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Jan 26, 2022 08:42
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i wanna play anachronox this year cause i respect that tom hall's first decision upon leaving id was to make the opposite of what john carmack thought a video game should be
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Jan 26, 2022 08:43
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The Colonel posted:i wanna play anachronox this year cause i respect that tom hall's first decision upon leaving id was to make the opposite of what john carmack thought a video game should be Hell yeah
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Jan 26, 2022 08:44
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The 4 types of silent protagonist personality are 'emotionless', 'weirdo', 'cool' and 'Mario'. And Bumblebee Elephant Parade posted:Yeah. Even Robin suffers from the classic self-insert problem of being unable to do any wrong (no, being mind-controlled into stabbing Chrom doesn't count), but it doesn't stand out because the narrative is constructed in such a way that you never really expect them to. Fates, meanwhile, has an entire route predicated on Corrin making tough choices with no right decision, only to... take away every choice at the last moment through a series of increasingly flimsy justifications. Hey don't be too light on them. Robin failed to predict an ambush and Emmeryn sacrificed herself because of it. Snooze Cruise posted:the silent protag just feels awkward in rpgs because they tend to be ploty games, but you don't see this compliant as often like games of other genres that have silent player characters but are less about plot and specifically about interacting with other characters, and nobody would try to call that a failure of writing in those cases Yeah it's not an issue in Animal Crossing for example. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 08:45
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to amend my previous statement its not even really plotty games. like the problem is when ya comes down to it is if you see the other characters as if they are played by actors on a stage, the pc is an actor as well, they are just inexplicably silent. it pops up more as a problem in plotty stuff because that tends to follow a more typical story structure so the player character feels more like an actor.
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Jan 26, 2022 08:47
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Console RPG Cliche #18, Crono's Complaint: The less the main character talks, the more words are put into his mouth, and therefore the more trouble he gets into through no fault of his own.
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Jan 26, 2022 08:55
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the warrior of light in ff14 mostly works but tbf a mmo is working under very different expectations and its impossible to have an mmo with a single defined character. the old republic comes the closest and you still choose between like 20 different options (if youre counting gender/race on top of class) and still have a dialogue wheel so its closer to mass effect or something.
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Jan 26, 2022 09:12
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Endorph posted:the warrior of light in ff14 mostly works but tbf a mmo is working under very different expectations and its impossible to have an mmo with a single defined character. the old republic comes the closest and you still choose between like 20 different options (if youre counting gender/race on top of class) and still have a dialogue wheel so its closer to mass effect or something. Not quite; The WoL in FFXIV is broadly defined as being this big noble heroic person by their actions, but you still get options for personal nuance through dialogue options in cutscenes to influence the tone of their personality like with Persona games. There's almost always an option to be a total dick to people if you really want to be. (Even if it's just, broadly speaking, your responses to requests for help being a range of "Sure, I'll do it!  " to "Okay, fine, it gets me out of [other thing]"  .)
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Jan 26, 2022 09:26
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The biggest problem I have with silent protagonists is that I generally want the point-of-view character to be the most interesting person in the story. When you're handing off every third line to some mute idiot, it kind of kills the moment.
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Jan 26, 2022 09:51
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exquisite tea posted:The biggest problem I have with silent protagonists is that I generally want the point-of-view character to be the most interesting person in the story. When you're handing off every third line to some mute idiot, it kind of kills the moment. I have to be honest, I don't think I can name many games where the PC is the most interesting character, silent or not.
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Jan 26, 2022 09:58
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RPGs, or games with heavy amounts of RPG in them, with class changing/ascension are fun to me. I like to be able to customize a character's development by finding the right amount of levels to put into a certain class, then changing to another. Or get the right stats and ascend to an elite class. What are some good examples of this? Games I'm thinking of are the Wizardry series, Might and Magic 6-8, Wizards and Warriors (PC), Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Demise: Ascension, Infinity Engine games, and Pathfinder.
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Jan 26, 2022 09:59
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Nobody Saves the World is on game pass at the moment and while its an action RPG, its entire gimmick is unlocking, leveling, and cross class splashing the various forms you can turn into.
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Jan 26, 2022 10:02
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How did Robin and Corrin come up anyways? They're not silent even if they're player standins, but those are two different things. The thing I like least about silent protagonists is when they try to pretend there's two dialogue choices that just say the same thing and the NPC doesn't even pretend to react since the options could go either way. The only examples of silent protagonists I can think of don't do that and say Mother 3 sure as hell wouldn't be improved by being able to make a clever remark nobody reacts to at random points. Endorph posted:her relationships with her other siblings are strong, It's far from the most egregious thing about fates, but I really wonder why they felt the need to include leo wanting to bone her as a side comment in an art book. The Colonel posted:three houses also, again, responds to the issue by giving its cast way more options amongst each other. to the point that game reviewers complained there weren't enough gay options, because it turned out a lot of the gay options were between the different characters and not with the protag and none of them considered this they got dialed down so much I don't blame random people for not knowing which pairings were gay though. The Colonel posted:i think persona almost gives you character outlines but it kinda only ends up making the fact that they're all mute, even more annoying. that poo poo should've been gone by persona 2 making joker an incredbly suave dashing rogue from the start was a mistake imo The Colonel posted:invisible war is Fine until you hit the... antarctica? area and they make you repeat the same levels but now there's power armor guys everywhere and you can't knock them out and the only decent weapon against them is the railgun which completely nulls nonlethal playthroughs and forces you into a much narrower set of viable playstyles and they stop putting any real alternate paths in areas and instead force you out into wide open spaces and narrow corridors with enemies you physically can't avoid bumping into and aaaaaaaaaaa i loving hate the back half of invisible war I would argue that things like the objective markers, hud and loading screens make it kinda subpar even before that. Acerbatus fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 10:04
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Hel posted:I have to be honest, I don't think I can name many games where the PC is the most interesting character, silent or not. Yeah, there's Dante, Kirby, Spider-Man, Majima and the Saints Row 2 boss but that's all I've got.
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Jan 26, 2022 11:05
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Cloud is probably the best character in ff7 tbh.
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Jan 26, 2022 11:08
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Monark Demo: Shockingly hefty. It's basically the prologue/first chapter, about 3 hours if you take your time and try stuff out. I mentioned the whole 'buy consumables with the currency you use to upgrade skills' thing being an annoyance, but I actually really like how every time you purchase a new skill or upgrade an old one, the character's level increases by one. In a lot of games, increasing your skills is either based on your level or is level-agnostic, but here's it's reversed-your stats increase as a consequence of learning new abilities, not the other way around.
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Jan 26, 2022 11:09
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Node posted:RPGs, or games with heavy amounts of RPG in them, with class changing/ascension are fun to me. I like to be able to customize a character's development by finding the right amount of levels to put into a certain class, then changing to another. Or get the right stats and ascend to an elite class. What are some good examples of this? Games I'm thinking of are the Wizardry series, Might and Magic 6-8, Wizards and Warriors (PC), Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle, Demise: Ascension, Infinity Engine games, and Pathfinder. You should play Stranger of Sword City Revisited. It's from a company that's made about a million Japanese Wizardry clones but SoSC is the one that most rewards extravagant multiclassing.
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Jan 26, 2022 11:45
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Thuryl posted:You should play Stranger of Sword City Revisited. It's from a company that's made about a million Japanese Wizardry clones but SoSC is the one that most rewards extravagant multiclassing. Be warned it can be a little bit of a grind to get the most from the multi class system. You unlock skill slots at certain levels of each class and it's difficult to build complex classes without these. That said it's really cool when you do and you can make some unbearably broken poo poo.
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Jan 26, 2022 13:59
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Levantine posted:Not sure, I downloaded it and then went to yoga! I'm about to fire it up so I'll let you know shortly. Thanks for the quick summary. I think I'll take your advice and give the demo a spin. Seems like I'll probably wait for some longterm reviews to see if it's worth buying.
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Jan 26, 2022 14:04
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Hel posted:I have to be honest, I don't think I can name many games where the PC is the most interesting character, silent or not. I'd argue Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium.
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Jan 26, 2022 14:05
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Thanks for the quick summary. I think I'll take your advice and give the demo a spin. Seems like I'll probably wait for some longterm reviews to see if it's worth buying. Yeah, that's the boat I'm in now. There's a LOT of games coming out in the next couple months and this one feels like a "wait for a discount" title to me, just based on what I played.
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Jan 26, 2022 14:24
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Endorph posted:the warrior of light in ff14 mostly works but tbf a mmo is working under very different expectations and its impossible to have an mmo with a single defined character.
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Jan 26, 2022 14:25
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Zereth posted:*nods stoically* *smiles, punches fist into hand*
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Jan 26, 2022 14:49
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Endorph posted:the warrior of light in ff14 mostly works but tbf a mmo is working under very different expectations and its impossible to have an mmo with a single defined character. the old republic comes the closest and you still choose between like 20 different options (if youre counting gender/race on top of class) and still have a dialogue wheel so its closer to mass effect or something. I'll always be amused by how mad some people people are that they have to be a helpful person in the XIV story and can't epically own the characters they don't like and whine that it's "railroading"
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Jan 26, 2022 15:08
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Leraika posted:*smiles, punches fist into hand* There's a bit even acknowledging it somewhere in, I want to say Heavensward or maybe late ARR somewhere, that goes like; "You're just going to stare knowingly, nod, and walk away aren't you?" *Smiles, nods and walks away*
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Jan 26, 2022 15:23
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I really like the characterization of WoL that comes from the Lv50 DRK quests. Just because they're going along with some of the inane bullshit that happens doesn't they're not grumpy about it.
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Jan 26, 2022 15:39
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Acerbatus posted:I would argue that things like the objective markers, hud and loading screens make it kinda subpar even before that. it's not great from the start but you can have fun with stuff like the melee combat insta-ragdolling dudes. the load screens are funny cause someone made a mod for thief 3 to remove most of them in that game and it turns out once you remove the load screens from thief 3, what you are left with is, mostly the same maps but there are really obvious load screen transition points that are just long empty hallways or something so removing them didn't actually like. change. anything.
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Jan 26, 2022 16:34
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i've joked before that Deus Ex Invisible War was almost solely responsible for setting back console/PC player relations by like a decade because so many PC players assumed the game's awful engine-related limitations were due to console limitations and that all console/PC releases in the future would be like that
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Jan 26, 2022 17:44
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I will never forgive the X-Box 360 for consigning Legion to Disc 2.
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Jan 26, 2022 17:45
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i've joked before that Deus Ex Invisible War was almost solely responsible for setting back console/PC player relations by like a decade because so many PC players assumed the game's awful engine-related limitations were due to console limitations and that all console/PC releases in the future would be like that Eidos did kind of shoot themselves in the foot be saying that they were console first game because of limitations when announcing them, so it's not really the gamers fault in this one case. https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/05/18/e3-2001-thief-iii-and-deus-ex-2-come-to-consoles-first
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Jan 26, 2022 18:40
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oh yeah and it wasn't the only case of that, Rainbow Six Lockdown and one of the Ghost Recon games, I think, got versions that were considered cut-down versions early in the 360/PS3 years IIRC it's funny how that attitude died down kind of silently. setting aside what happened post-release, of course, you had something like Cyberpunk 2077 being a multiplat and I don't remember anyone being pissed it wasn't PC only even though first-person FPSRPGs are classic PC stuff. and now even stuff like Uncharted is coming to PC.
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Jan 26, 2022 18:43
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Acerbatus posted:How did Robin and Corrin come up anyways? They're not silent even if they're player standins, but those are two different things. we were talking about Fire Emblem and Corrin came up before the conversation even shifted to silent protags
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Jan 26, 2022 18:48
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Yeah, the original complaint wasn't about silent protagonists, it was about self-insert characters that all the other characters are potentially in love with.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:02
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Feels Villeneuve posted:i've joked before that Deus Ex Invisible War was almost solely responsible for setting back console/PC player relations by like a decade because so many PC players assumed the game's awful engine-related limitations were due to console limitations and that all console/PC releases in the future would be like that It certainly did for me, no joke. I was so hyped for Deus Ex 2 and then, that.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:04
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Feels Villeneuve posted:oh yeah and it wasn't the only case of that, Rainbow Six Lockdown and one of the Ghost Recon games, I think, got versions that were considered cut-down versions early in the 360/PS3 years IIRC It died during the PS4 / XBOX One era, because they had enough power/RAM that limitations weren't so severe anymore, outside of the still common designed for controller stuff. And during the PS360 era we had worse issues what with a lot of games just not getting a PC version at all(usually blamed on every PC owner being a dirty pirate, which is very different from how it's approached now). And Platform Wars in general have mostly died out, outside of the weirdoes fighting about PC game stores. Hel fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 19:05
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the funny thing with invisible war to me is that so few of its issues are actually a result of the shift to a more consolized design ethos. even if the game had wider open maps it still makes a whole ton of decisions that aren't fun and don't make sense from either pov. the game is not only smaller than the original it's also just. worse. less finished. you can make smaller areas and still offer multiple routes and solutions and options and invisible war just... doesn't. not outside of a few different choices of augs and some token story stuff, it just, doesn't offer interesting gameplay variation after a point cause the design of the game is clearly just rushed and unfinished lol
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Jan 26, 2022 19:20
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None of the Deus Ex games have done it for me. Invisible war was close but I went pure stealth so couldn’t beat the bosses.
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Jan 26, 2022 19:36
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are you like. mixing up invisible war with human revolution. invisible war barely even has enough stat or loadout stuff for it to matter, you just get the railgun and use the railgun on anything you can't thwack and if you can't do that you just kinda run past them. game barely has boss fights to speak of either, hr is the one with the big big bosses who you mostly beat by exploiting mechanics
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Jan 26, 2022 19:44
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This is hardly a hot take but I really dislike silent protagonists in character-heavy games because it means that everyone else has to do the lifting for them. To give an example that's been done to death, in the Persona games, especially in social links, you basically have no input and it's another character talking themselves through their problems and then thanking you for picking one or two lines of dialogue. You're a cardboard cutout and everyone else is filling in your blanks. It doesn't add anything, and personally I've never been able to map onto a character in a game so the idea of putting myself in their shoes falls completely flat. If there has to be a player avatar character, at least let it be a character, not a void that everyone else has to fill. (Not that this is a perfect solution either, especially when the game really tries to let you know that you're special and everyone loves you, but that's more a writing failure on the part of the game than an inherent flaw of the design.)
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Jan 26, 2022 19:46
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