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Bashing Bavarians is cool too though. Also, what's up with fat male Germans wearing cowboy hats? I see this all the drat time.
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Sep 28, 2011 01:25
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I've found living in Germany to be rather horrible to be honest. I've been repeatedly shocked at how poo poo this country is with respect to for example consumer rights and public services. The only advice I could give anyone is to stay away from Germany. For reference, I'm Dutch and I've lived in Frankfurt am Main for the better part of three years now.
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Sep 29, 2011 18:40
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Baron Porkface posted:What do you mean with regard to lax consumer rights? Like when say a certain type of headphone catches on fire while you're using it. Twice. Or when Deutsche Telekom disconnects your Internet a few days before the university exams, but if you say on the phone you'll pay 100 euros for a repairman to come by, it suddenly works again a few minutes later. Multiple times. But what you said on the phone is a legally binding contract. Or when your phonebill is many times higher than it should be. Or when your Internet is suddenly disconnected for weeks and it takes double digit hours calling callcenters to get it back. Or when you buy a laptop that has a bunch of dead pixels within a week and you don't get the full price back because the company makes up a bunch of bullshit about scratches on said laptop, including sending one picture of a laptop with scratches, and another of our laptops serial number, but no proof that the pictures were of the same laptop. And these are just the things I can remember off-hand, and all of those happened in just a few years. And in all these cases, the only thing you can do is call your lawyer and sue, which takes a ton of time and is often more expensive than the company loving you over in the first place. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 29, 2011 |
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Sep 29, 2011 19:06
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niethan posted:What options do you have in the Netherlands in situations like those? Consumer protection agencies, either government or non-government, and as far as I know it's less of a bitch to independently go the legal route as well. Deutsche Telekom just fucks people over like nobodies business. We literally have a seperate lawyer who has a full time job of just working on cases against them. I wasn't surprised at all that when DT went into the Dutch market they were fined millions by the government within a few years. The kind of poo poo they pull just doesn't fly there. Previously on GBS posted:I was with you until you said you were Dutch. I enjoyed living in the Netherlands for the most part, but I found life there to so drat inconvenient compared to life in Germany. That's very interesting because I experience the exact opposite. It's amazing to me for example that you have to go to four different supermarket chains to get all your shopping, or that you have to go before certain times because otherwise stuff is sold out. I've seen supermarkets here where a quarter of the shelves were standing empty. And fruit is rotting in the shelves all the time. On top of that, they apparently also lack a good system for tracking what products get bought how often in each store, because regularly a product is suddenly gone and we have to inquire and get a the response that "they are checking demand for that product based on how many people inquire". I've studied business in the Netherlands, including the JIT system of Albert Heijn (major upscale supermarket chain in NL), and that kind of inefficiency is just unthinkable there, or any other supermarket. Except maybe for any German budget chains (Aldi, Lidl, etc) whose profit margin is entirely based on understaffing their stores and overworking said staff. And then there was the time my girlfriend almost died in the lobby of a hospital after being send away from two other hospitals on that same night. Or when the ambulance that showed up was a wrong type and couldn't help with her problems at all. That certainly wasn't convenient. What did you find inconvenient about living in the Netherlands? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Sep 29, 2011 |
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Sep 29, 2011 21:09
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hankor posted:Going the legal route in germany is not that hard either, it might or might not take longer than you are used to but usually companies are eager to settle out of court once you make it clear you are willing to go the distance. As far as consumer protection agencies are concerned the "Verbraucherzentralen" are the exact same thing and can hit companies with some rather nasty law suits. We've had 5 law suits in the last 4 years and none of them got settled out of court. Neither me nor my parents ever had the need for any lawsuits in the Netherlands in my lifetime as far as I can remember. quote:Also I have no idea what supermarkets you go to, I've never seen what you describe outside of budget chains. The Flour Moth posted:Seriously, I've never seen a single rotten fruit or unstocked shelf in Germany. We mostly go to Rewe and Real, and there it happens weekly.
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Sep 29, 2011 21:57
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Previously on GBS posted:Housing I'll give you that. Dutch housing sucks due to the mortgage being tax deductible in full, meaning everybody always wants a bigger house because it ends up being a net benefit, which means almost all new houses built are big, meaning the low end of the market is totally jammed. It was a big issue last elections, but the right wing parties promising they'd change nothing won out. As far as I know about rooms in student cities, you either have to commute a lot or get on the waiting lists for rooms years ahead of time. They did have a big initiative a while back to go after illegal subletters hard though. You just ask your neighbours to put out your trash bin once though, or find a dumpster for it I guess. quote:Dutch bureaucracy was another thing I found hard to handle. My impression is that there is an insane amount of rules and regulations that, being practical people, the Dutch know can't all be followed. So it seems that everyone just picks a subset of rules that seem reasonable and works off that. At least that's the only way I can make sense of it. Being German after all, I found that very hard to deal with. I spent many nights frantically programming and writing essays before I realized that a Dutch deadline and a German deadline are two very different things and that I'm the only person who ever hands in stuff on time. This sounds like its mostly about university, and I totally don't recognise it. Throughout high school and uni, deadlines meant deadlines, and handing in late meant failing or losing a mark (out of 10) for each day it was late. On the other hand, if you have a good reason to be late, like death in the family or illness or accident, you can probably get in touch and work something out. Something which I've found much less possible in Germany. I've certainly found German university bureaucracy to be worse though, with a lot of very important administration here in Frankfurt still being done on paper and without copies. quote:There's more but this is much too long already. Despite all the bitching I really like your country, I just don't find it very easy to live in. I like a lot of the places in Germany, and loads of German people, but I absolutely loathe the country. Don't take it personal though 
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Sep 29, 2011 |
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Sep 29, 2011 23:37
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DerDestroyer posted:Live in Canada or the United States and your opinion will quickly change. Both myself and my relatives who live there love Germany. When there are so many things fundamentally wrong with your home country you quickly give little things like this the benefit of the doubt. Be happy Deutsche Telekom doesn't throttle your connection and limit the amount of bandwidth you use per month. Also be happy the German government doesn't pass laws that allow them to monitor your activities on the internet and telephone without a warrant and log every detail of it. Actually DT has sold our Internet activities to third parties, which resulted in a law suit. Stuhlmajor posted:I doubt anyone will, but I also strongly doubt your view is unbiased. You may not have loathed the country before being there, but I'm guessing a couple of things went wrong for you or adjusting to unfamiliar things inconvenienced you in a way that subsequently amplified everything else you experienced adversely. A bunch of horrible poo poo definitely happened very soon after I moved here, with the highlight being my girlfriend almost dying in a hospital lobby and the staff not giving a poo poo. Most of the bad poo poo usually ends up happening to my girlfriend, and even her parents have trouble believing the amount of poo poo we get here in Frankfurt. So maybe you're right and it is just Frankfurt, in which case you need to read my "stay away from Germany" as "stay away from Frankfurt". On the other hand, it's been an interesting experience. We've sort of had a light-version of living in poverty, where we get about what we need to get by from our parents every month and living in a single room and so on. It makes it very easy to imagine what would have happened to us if we didn't have our parents to fall back on every time something bad happened, which was often. If we had been working poor making the same as we were getting, which is altogether possible, we'd probably both be unemployed, in heavy debt and possibly homeless by now if it wasn't for being able to call the parents. Some of the things I talked about really hit us hard, and my girlfriend has had some psychological problems as a result. The only thing we want now is get our degrees and then get out of Germany as fast as possible. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Sep 30, 2011 |
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Sep 30, 2011 12:33
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elwood posted:Details pls. They sold our internet activity to a bunch of law firms, which proceeded to claim copyright violations to things they don't even own the copyright to as far as I can tell (and they weren't representing the copyright holders either). They then tried to intimidate us into signing a statement saying we were guilty, we'd pay something like 10,000 euros and we wouldn't do it again, which would also do something ridiculous like allow them to monitor our internet activities for 20 years. Fun times getting a threatening letter like that on every holiday and birthday for months. Eventually ended up with a suit which I think we got dismissed because they brought seperate action for each claimed violation through seperate third parties rather than everything together.
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Sep 30, 2011 12:55
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elwood posted:They didn't sell poo poo, the law firms got a court order (probably Landgericht Köln) to hand over your details. They also didn't force you to pay € 10.000, they wanted you to sign a document stating that you stop uploading xy and in case of further violations you agree to pay € 10.000 per infraction. That declaration would have been valid for 30 years. OK, I'm just going to trust what the letters and our lawyer said though, if you don't mind.
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Sep 30, 2011 13:06
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elwood posted:I think we all agree that the Abmahnungs situation is a disgrace and needs to be dealt with. Also Telekom, although apparently not necessarely related.
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Sep 30, 2011 14:00
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We have what I believe the Anglo-Saxon world calls "tracking" in Dutch schools as well, starting in high school (after 8 years of primary school, starting at age 4), and I've always thought it is a really good idea. It helps that there's pretty good mobility between the various kinds of secondary education. I don't know how much of that Germany has, but it's certainly possible to have either way. I've also heard that a lot of the stuff you learn at American undergrad in university is highest level high school level stuff over here, probably as a result of everyone being in the same class in high school over there. I can see how you can make arguments against tracking, but the allergic reaction I tend to find in US media about it is just so completely alien to me.
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Sep 30, 2011 20:50
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^^^ Yeah, but you already have that gulf, but instead of having different levels of high school education, whether within the same school as in the Netherlands, or different schools as I believe Germany does it, you have it with the difference between innercity and suburbian schools. You just pretend they are the same on paper. Furthermore, social mobility in Germany is higher than the US, although I believe lower than Canada. Like I said, it's not that there's no arguments against tracking, but I always feel like the arguments for tracking are never fairly considered in the US, precisely because of emotions about "cultural values" and fear about race relations.
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Sep 30, 2011 21:16
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Anti-Hero posted:On that note, how do you Germans communicate with your Dutch/Danish/etc. neighbors when visiting? Is German enough of a lingua franca that they speak it, or do you all just switch to English? There's German in high school in the Netherlands, and a good number of speakers of both the 'decent' and 'lovely' variety, but English is usually a lot more convenient I've found.
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Oct 1, 2011 01:21
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dreamin' posted:Why does it work in other countries, like Finland, that routinely end up far far ahead of the german schools in all comparative studies? Seems like its perfectly possible. I don't know how it is in Germany, but if I recall correctly, all teachers at all levels in Finland have to have a Masters degree in their field and a teaching degree. I bet that has a lot to do with their good results.
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Oct 2, 2011 01:46
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Holy poo poo. I had no idea you had this kind of insanity going on. I was going to make a post about how at least you guys aren't like the Japanese who try to trivialize their actions in WW2 but it seems you're more like them than I thought. In the Netherlands we also don't have video or audio recordings of police interrogations, and on top of that you don't even have the right of a lawyer being present, as far as I know. It's backwards as hell but it's also tradition and very convenient for the police, so it's very hard to change. It's no surprise that in many high profile murder cases of the last decades, the police has ended up getting tunnelvision and hounding the wrong suspect for years. This must be some kind of weird northern-continental Europe thing or something. I wonder how Belgium and Denmark do these things. I don't really see what any of the examples DeusEx gave have to do with WW2 though. I find that the younger generations of Germans are really good about WW2, and the older the German the higher the chance gets of them still holding some pretty reprehensible views. I don't think that's unique to Germany though. Although there's a shocking amount of hate for Turks sometimes. The most shocking to me was when we needed an emergency dentist and went to a hospital that had some, and there was a lot of people waiting and all the dentists were very busy, except for one Turkish woman. People would rather suffer dental pain than be treated by her I guess. There was a good chance she was going to lose that job, and it was a pretty drat sad situation. We've also seen some casual racism in stores from middle aged or old Germans, and our elderly neigbhour with his bloodgroup tattood on his arm is about as racist as you'd expect, but the younger generations are again much better. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Oct 2, 2011 |
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Oct 2, 2011 19:36
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In NL it's based on teacher recommendation + 1 standardized national test + 1 more standardized test of the schools choosing. Teachers recommendation usually counts double though, but a discrepancy between teacher recommendation and test result is certainly going to raise some eyebrows. On top of that we only seperate at age 12, and the top 2 types of schools (having roughly 20% of all high schoolers for the top and 30% for the second highest type) can share a mixed first year in high school before being fully seperated in case there's doubt. I think the bottom 4 (each subtypes of the same schooltype, really) have a similar shared first year, but I'm not sure. Then on top of that, a lot of schools have multiple schooltypes in the same building, meaning each type can have the same teachers teaching them.
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 3, 2011 |
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Oct 3, 2011 18:43
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Plankalkuel posted:I knew American Exceptionalism, but German Exceptionalism is something new. Don't let the fact that I'm railing against the segregation fool you into thinking, that that's my only beef with the system. In fact smaller classes and more money for education would be great. Never going to happen under the current economic system. I don't know anyone who is against it though.
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Oct 4, 2011 21:05
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^^^ That's the difference though isn't it? You grew up close to the suffering caused by authoritarian socialism (which an incredibly small number of people support or want nowadays, by the way), but most of the suffering caused by capitalism is far away.
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Oct 6, 2011 12:36
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az posted:My favorite planned economy story is the chandelier industry in <some town i forgot>. They got orders to increase their output, and their output was measured in kilos. One clever idea later they used extra lead they had lying around to put on more weight to meet their new quota. The only problem there is a poorly designed measure.
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Oct 13, 2011 15:41
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Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedingungsloses_Grundeinkommen
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Oct 13, 2011 23:19
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Ymel posted:Things have to be scaled correctly. This is so true. Also look at the bailouts. The German people don't want their money going to Greece and the Greek people don't want to have the money and guess what happens? None of the politicians give a poo poo about the people in the street.
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Oct 19, 2011 16:34
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Hungry Gerbil posted:So it really doesn't loook as bad as I thought. Now everything depends on the effectiveness of the Bild propaganda campaign. Enjoy chancellor Guttenberg within the next 12 years or so.
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Nov 28, 2011 14:32
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Boner Slam posted:Edit: okay BGE (1000€), minimum wage and now there's a restriction of upper wages These are all excellent suggestions though. Basic income in particular is easily the best thing a non-socialist government could do.
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Dec 3, 2011 18:55
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Nobody is worth it beyond a certain amount of money, and everyone is worth having enough money to live. If you combine a basic income with high upper marginal tax rates, it doesn't matter that you're also giving money to the rich, as you're getting it back anyway, and it conveniently combines all kinds of welfare programs into one comprehensive program. And ensuring that a person can live doesn't entitle you to demand poo poo from that person, it's basic human decency. There's a good reason the basic income is supported by 5 winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics, including noted socialists like Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek. It's literally the single most civilized thing any non-socialist government could institute and it'd help the economy a lot as well. As for a factual reason to restrict wages, it is no coincidence that the most propserous times in the history of the UK and the US, for two examples, occured when their upper marginal tax rates exceeded 90%. Wealth inequality leads to all kinds of very serious problems, most notably the current global crisis of capitalism.
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Dec 3, 2011 21:49
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Telekom is the physical embodiment of evil. That should answer all your questions.
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Mar 11, 2012 17:09
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ArchangeI posted:Call me back when the NPD reliably gets double digit results in federal elections. NSDAP had 2.6% of the vote in 1928. Things can change very very rapidly. All that was needed back then was a global economic meltdown. How's the Eurozone doing again? Oh...
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Mar 27, 2012 19:26
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az posted:Re: That family guy recap someone did (couldn't see the video obv.), that's very unlike Germany actually. Japan is the Axis major that completly ignores and denies everything from 1930 to 46. Germany is very self conscious about the period and trying to ignore it away wouldn't go anywhere here. Germany's self-consciousness has a strange duality to it though. I mean, yes, there's pretty good education and discussion about nazi-times in German schools, although I did find it weird that my girlfriend told me she learned nothing about the actual war part of the war, having instead focused solely on the social and societal aspects of it. It's also completely unacceptable in public life to glorify the period in any way shape or form. Contrast with Italy, for example. However, denazification did not go as far as we all may like to believe or as it should have. Only the absolute top of the German hierarchy was prosecuted after '45, and people who were influential or even powerful, albeit to lesser extents, before the fall of the nazis continued to be so after. Some of the people killed by the RAF, for instance, garner no sympathy from me. And then there's the cases of Klaas Carel Faber and Heinrich Boere. I've made a more extensive post about the former here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3493762&pagenumber=28&perpage=40#post405941768 The short of it is, Germany provided shelter to a convicted Nazi war criminal and member of the SS for nearly 60 years, up until his death. Perversely, the reason Germany cited for doing so was because this man had German citizenship, which he was only granted due to a law granting German citizenship to all SS members. So here's a guy who got away with his war crimes by virtue of being a member of the SS. That very severely does not sit right with me, and to be quite honest, casts incredibly severe doubts on any of that atonement stuff Germany likes to pride itself on so hard. I must ask, if atonement and PR was really such a huge priority, why could an actual convicted SS war criminal not be punished for his murders and why did it take nearly 60 years for another convicted SS war criminal to be punished for his murders? That said, Japan manages to be a lot worse, but I don't think they're really a good standard for anything in this regard.
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Nov 10, 2012 14:08
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az posted:I think you shouldn't indict the whole country for letting a few bad people get away. Most of the really bad Nazis and SS officers got what was coming to them at the hands of the allies. The fact that denazification was pretty toothless is not actually a German thing, it was an allied decision, mostly the US's. They needed West Germany to be stable in the face of an increasing Cold War, especially with the Wall coming up. Everybody who wasn't a really bad, well known Nazi got pardoned, in essence, to allow them to fill in positions in German politics, the Police and especially the Military. The US Army was very much interested in keep as many east front veterans as possible in the Federal Army, because they had been fighting the Soviets and knew their style and tactics the best. For example, most German officers that were moved to America in Operation Paperclip were put to task to help them establish doctrines and intelligence efforts against the Soviet Union. All in the name of fighting Communism. I'm well aware of this. As more often than not in the post-'45 world, if something bad is going down, the US is involved. Same reason why Japan is as hosed as it is with respect to WW2. quote:And how do you mean, no sympthaty for those killed by the RAF, are you one of those that believe every German that died in the war had it coming? Because you know, the RAF especially targeted population centers on purpose and ignored the infrastructure leading east, in an effort to a) kill the people and undermine morale (which never works) and b) let them keep fighting the Soviets to reduce the amount of land they'd eventually get in a peace settlement. The RAF was run by literal warcriminals and committed so many horrible acts it is absolutely indefensible. I'm talking about the other RAF. quote:If you want standards I think Germany is probably leading in a scale of how educated and apologetic a country is after doing something really awful. Some japanese college students I talked to about it did just barely or not at all know there was a war. Those who did had no idea about any specifics besides the nuclear bomb drops. The official stance is to completly ignore any Japanese involvement in WW2, especially towards China. I agree that Germany is probably the best when it comes to "countries that have done horrible poo poo and how they are dealing with it now", but I think even so, there's still plenty of room for improvement.
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Nov 10, 2012 15:10
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Also while we're sorta on the subject, I just want to point attention to two parts of history that are sadly often glossed over. The first being the German and Italian resistance, and the second being the German and Italian volunteers who joined the International Brigades, who, if such a thing is possible, were even bigger heroes than all the other volunteers, and thus are likely to have been the biggest heroes of the 20th century.
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Nov 10, 2012 15:53
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elwood posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDkxq5gbRoE While certainly extremely commendable, this isn't the International Brigades.
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Nov 10, 2012 18:20
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flavor posted:I'd say those aspects are about a thousand times more important than who fought what battle with what exact type of weapons. They are, but having some kind of timeline to place events in the context of how the war was going seems important. flavor posted:I also seriously don't think having been in the SS and being proud of it is enough to warrant killing someone. It's enough for severe punishment. When that doesn't come because of German and global political reasons, well, as I said, no sympathy for SS scum.
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Nov 11, 2012 10:35
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dreamin' posted:Nazi-symbols traditionally were a big "problem" in computer games in Germany because of the slightly hysteric reaction to violent computer games per se over here. "Real" media (film/tv/arts...) was able to use them just fine as long as it was obvious that the intention was not to glorify them. And as long as you were not some leftist anti-fascist in glorious Bavaria, where everything leftist is suspect Speaking of Bavaria and its perception as "the Texas of Germany" and ofcourse "the birthplace of Nazism" kind of stuff, what exactly happened in Bavaria? The impression is very much that Bavaria is this kind of has-always-been-backwards part of Germany that nonetheless very much influences how Germany is perceived in foreign countries (what with the Oktoberfest and lederhosen and the feathery caps and such) and is also still very Christian. However, on the other hand we have the Bavarian Soviet Republic, which got a whole lot further with the whole communist-revolution shtick that was pretty popular in '18-'19 than most of Germany. Sure, there was the revolt and occupations in the Ruhr area, and Hamburg and Berlin are pretty left, but Bavaria? You certainly wouldn't know it today. It kinda reminds me of places like Oklahoma in the US having been communist strongholds in days past. So yeah, what happened to produce this shift? Riso posted:That's because the Antifa is usually the first to throw stones. And we all know fascists have never done anything to deserve something so violent. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Nov 11, 2012 |
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Nov 11, 2012 16:11
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I said perception, as opposed to reality. As for the rest, that's all well and good, but other than going from poor to affluent doesn't really answer my question as to how a place that had apparently such support for far-left ideas is now the most conservative part of the country.
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Nov 11, 2012 18:37
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flavor posted:You seem to be very prone to excuse violence if it's from "your" side of the political spectrum. No, just against fascists. Especially when the government doesn't do much against them.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:27
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So Dutch news is reporting that the German intelligence agencies had connections with German and Dutch neonazi organisations, including tipping them off when home searches or arrests were going to happen. Apparently this is a big thing right now, anyone got more info?
Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Nov 13, 2012 |
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Nov 13, 2012 14:46
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Does anyone like the Yanks? Plucky little Israel.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:23
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elwood posted:Let's just make marriage a religious thing and keep the state out of it. Call everything else civil unions, change the constitution to reflect it and be done with the whole mess. This is a terrible idea. Why let bigots control the discourse?
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Dec 4, 2012 18:43
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I'm not Turkish. Religious symbols in court rooms is loving stupid and has no place in a secular democracy. It is backwards, casts doubts on the impartiality of the court and exclusive. I guess you'd all rather go on discussing how bad Turkey is in the German thread though.
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May 8, 2013 01:19
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Humans Among Us posted:Kinda curious too what you think about Erdogan coming to the Netherlands and stirring up some poo poo about a young Turkish boy being raised by lesbians even though that went pretty fine apparently before he showed up. Don't really care to be honest. Whole world has always been bitching about Dutch progressive policies with respect to drugs and gay rights, abortion and euthanasia. France and Germany have been going on for decades about how terrible our drug policies are and that we ought to change them ASAP. Basically, we're right on those things and they're wrong and they're some of the precious things my country actually gets mostly right so whatevs, haters gonna hate. What's much worse is when stuff like those I listed get actually threatened by regressive fucks in parliament, threats which always come from within the country rather than from outside of it. Plus, in respect to Erdogan, his explanation for even talking about it was that the boy has a Turkish passport and so he's a citizen of his and thus he ought to care for him, which I find pretty solid, actually. Just in this he is wrong about what is best for the boy. Also the boy is Dutch-Turkish, as in dual nationality, not Turkish. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 18:09
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BCR posted:Hey German thread, quick question, whats the word for ALDIs business model? Cost leadership is the word for their strategy.
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Jul 16, 2013 11:17
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