GW Death Pool 2014-2015: End Times Appreciation Station

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > GW Death Pool 2014-2015: End Times Appreciation Station

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Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

JcDent posted:

Speaking of companies mismanaging videogames, WarMachine game still seems to be buggy!

It's still in beta.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 23:46

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 09:44

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

TheCosmicMuffet posted:

Is this a commentary on our perpetual beta release cycle or are you serious? Because the full campaign was released a couple weeks ago. My impression is that it's now just a matter of DLC expansion, not hammering out the basics.

It's got problems, but it's miles ahead of every GW game release with the exception of their Blood Bowl game, which, if I remember correctly started as a rogue imitator project that later, as part of an out of court settlement became a GW official thing.

It's an early access game that got released once they hit a certain milestone, rather than because it was complete (imo). It should continue to receive updates but realistically it's still in beta.

Yes, I know it's being sold as a complete product. No, I don't think it's the right way to do things. Early access is a bloody disaster though, and I'm hopeful they'll give it the polish it needs. Besides, they'll want to monetise it with DLC so it'll need some attention regardless.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 19:17

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

WMH's tournament scenarios make deployment A Big Deal.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 22:23

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Killbox mostly means you can't afford to just sit back with your 'caster and not have to worry about getting decapitated.

Not all the scenarios affect the game hugely, but many of them do require you to care about 2+ locations on the board from the start, and with jamming and board control being such a big deal, and so many units having rough matchups, you can totally be on the back foot from deployment.

WMH also allows for more left-field movement shenanigans than most skirmish games I've played. Stuff coming from way downtown to murder key pieces / your commander is another core component of the game and there's a lot of placement and counter-placement that goes in to attempting/preventing that sort of play.

Thirsty Dog fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 7, 2015

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 22:57

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Was Warmaster actually any good? Would it hold up against "modern" rulesets, or a 10mm conversion of Kings of War?

# ¿ Jan 12, 2015 13:01

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Good to know, thanks.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2015 13:18

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Joe_Richter posted:

Most of the specialist games were actually good (Mordheim and necromunda suffered from using the old warhammer rules). Pity GW decided to double down on their two Warhammer iterations instead.

Think he means the recent Panzer General clone.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2015 14:19

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Blood bowl: updated models for each team, more variation in poses, special edition models, special edition pitches, cool / better components, etc.

You could easily see people spending hundreds and hundreds on that game. Everyone wins. Even GW, who would make money and fans.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2015 15:43

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

The main thing I took from those walls of text is that you're planning on playing Dreadfleet.

You seem like a good guy, so don't do this to yourself.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2015 20:40

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Leperflesh posted:

It was a present. And if the rules suck, I'll modify them. The ships are amazing, the cloth play area is amazing, the terrain is amazing, it's a gorgeous game.

Try this: http://quirkworthy.com/2012/01/21/dreadfleet-salvage-project-version-1-0/

(Same guy who wrote Dreadball / Deadzone / etc)

# ¿ Jan 17, 2015 00:20

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

I've never had the opportunity to actually play epic, but this and the general "roll a dice to see if your formation moves or just sits around like losers" mechanics sound pretty awful! Maybe there's something about the way that epic plays out that makes them more tolerable, but I've never seen that kind of stuff work out well in any other game. It definitely looks like a much better ruleset than GW's main ones, though.

They don't just sit around.

If you don't bother to retain the initiative, you don't roll any dice and it's a simple alternative activation system. Obviously when you're alternating, having two activations in a row - without your enemy getting one - is hugely powerful. So there's a risk attached to it, which is that you might fail the roll and the unit gets a limited activation instead of a full one. It's a "hold" activation which means 1 of Move, Shoot, Regroup, and the formation receives a blast marker (blast markers are an amazing concept).

In some cases it's very very rare to fail (usually with low-activation count armies like Space Marines) and in others it's just a throwaway gamble (ORKS!) that's worth the payoff if you succeed.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2015 00:21

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Thank god they switched to plastic kits (magnetisable for bonus points). I have two of the old metal Gladiators and I only had to assemble one of them. Some of their models are a gigantic pain in the arse.

Infinity's a different kind of pain in the arse, too.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 00:20

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

LordAba posted:

^^^ Now if they used better plastics, that would be great.

<rant>

I'll be honest, I don't really care about the quality anywhere near as much as other people. I want ease of assembly and something that'll look decent on the battlefield with a reasonable number of poses. My painting is awful and my desire to do any is practically non-existent. I developed a sensitivity to CA glues which makes assembly of fiddly models a massive drama.

If it's something like Mantic's first Dreadball teams, which were a) ugly, and b) surprisingly fiddly to put together then it's a combination of total suck.

Just... take the massive assembly overhead out of minis gaming please people

It's why I'd rather buy prepainted off eBay or stick to stuff like Epic scale which is a piece of piss to get ready.

</rant>

e: Aren't colossals / gargantuans mostly resin with a bit of metal?

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 00:31

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Look, SALR's avatar/text removal has a few downsides but it's totally worth it in the long run

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 00:38

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

LordAba posted:

It is "useful idiots" like you that means we get poo poo components to good games. Just like there is nothing wrong with making a game balanced to all levels of play and it makes the game stronger (even though newbs complain about the evil power games), there is nothing wrong with making components and models better because it helps people new to hobbies by increasing the ease of painting details that make even a drybrushing look good and increasing the ease of putting things together with actual *gasp* instructions.
Stop buying Mantic's fantasy poo poo and maybe they will make an elf army that doesn't look like fried rear end.

Oh do gently caress off, champ. I don't buy any other Mantic stuff, I kickstarted Dreadball and was disappointed with the quality of the sculpts particularly when it didn't come with the payoff of them being easy to assemble (Veer-Myn in particular were a serious pain) which is something that Mantic had originally made a big deal about. Given the vast amount of plastic that I got from the Kickstarter it represented a serious overhead just to get up and running.

I have no problems with GW or whoever making better models and better components. I'm asking that they also put some thought towards not making the assembly process a massive headache. PP are particularly bad for this, but getting better, and while their plastics have some issues they generally won't make you swear like a sailor when assembling them and the detail + posing are both pretty good. It's more a case of production issues with them, i.e. mold lines and the like. Older metal miniatures were a genuine problem to assemble, particularly models that had separate components for arms and the weapon they were holding in both hands, and gaps where there shouldn't have been gaps (I'm looking at you Cyclops Savage / Bane Lord Tartarus / etc).

Corvus Belli stuff looks nice but some of those models take "fiddly" to a new loving dimension.

In case you missed it: I get ill using CA glue unless I take a lot of precautions. CA glue is usually the only thing that works on this stuff in a reasonable amount of time. The harder the assembly, the higher chance I'll gently caress it up & restart or just have to shelve it for now.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 09:50

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Big Willy Style posted:

i think the only elves that look worse than mantics are the nyss in the PP horde range

Please. As if anyone has ever successfully assembled a unit of nyss.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 17:54

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

El Estrago Bonito posted:

I'd rather use an entire army of EM4 plastics than touch those ugly rear end mantic elves. Compare them to GW's Galadhrim, IE: good looking cheap elf minis.

Tubby fuckers though:

(Also they defaulted the site to Swedish Krone for me for some reason. Good work, GW.)

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 20:59

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Ignite Memories posted:

AND WHY NOT?

Shadowrun seems like the only setting where elves can even get fat. I can understand if they have great metabolisms and eat leaves or whatever but surely there is still some variation within the species!

Because Elves are eternally those annoyingly thin vegan fuckers who don't seem to have any fun and look down on anyone who might enjoy junk food.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 21:10

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

They used to sell Horus Heresy novels at reasonable prices.

Then they decided they'd sell them at inflated prices while hardback copies were the only physical ones available. These inflated prices were justified by the ebooks being special "extended" editions. By this, they meant literally 2-3 pages of lovely art in addition to the text.

Then they "forgot" to go back to normal pricing once softbacks were available.

What a shock.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2015 00:03

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

For sure. But those champions will still be valid in five years time.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 17:38

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:

Sternguard have been a constant in Space Marines for at least 7 years, possibly 10 (I don't recall if they were in the 4e Codex when I looked through it)

Those five stern guard have been a legal unit all that time?

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 18:31

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:

Of course people 'believe' them. They're in official releases. It's a thing that has happened. My point is, we have no idea what's happening after the End Times, so unless the rules section of Archaon is 'There is no more game! Gotcha!' literally selling off hundreds of dollars worth of toys based on rumors is a bit loving silly.

They were rumours that proved to be spot on when the books released but you and that other insufferable guylord have decided to ignore that so you can forge your own narrative about you being right, everyone else being wrong, and GW leading us aĺl into a beautiful new dawn of gamimg.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2015 10:52

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Night10194 posted:

If they ever did an End Times for 40k, do you think they'd end it in Chaos Wins Everyone Dies Lol? On one hand, GW loves jerking off over how invincible Chaos is, but at the same time, they love jerking off over Space Marines. So it'd be the two favored groups for the writers up against one another and I have no idea who'd win it.

I know they're not doing End Times for 40k yet, before anyone objects, but anything to get this off goddamn 3d printing.

The main Nid fleet shows up, everyone is eaten. Full story written in a short series of 87 books released over fifteen years, yours for the low low price of £5k.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 12:36

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

BFG, Full Thrust, err one other that always gets mentioned alongside Full Thrust, Firestorm Armada v2, Star Wars Armada (unrelated).

That might be in order of quality, too.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 12:44

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

NTRabbit posted:

Peter F. Hamilton is a better example of 'How does this guy keeping getting published when I can't?"

Nah. Aside from his love of a deus ex machina, his desire for his main characters to interact no matter how unlikely the event, and his creepy fixation with teenagers having sex, Hamilton writes amazing space opera with a lot of imagination going into both technology and alien races.

Flawed but mostly worthwhile.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 18:24

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Zombie Al Capone was such a dumb idea.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2015 23:11

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

adamantium|wang posted:

Someone stat up Paula Myo for 40K

Angela Tramelo is basically from one of the lesser Officio Assassinorum shrines.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 00:28

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

BlackIronHeart posted:

Someone mentioned a game that had units rolling different dice (one might roll a d6, another a d8) to show how hard or fighty they were. Can anyone recall which game uses that mechanic?

Stargrunt, Tomorrow's War (spiritual successor), Force on Force, and a bunch of other fairly grognardy games use the same system.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2015 11:46

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

There does seem to be this idea that every new WMH player is guaranteed to get smashed by Iron Gauntlet champions every time they take the table.

Realistically, new players are going to end up learning off mediocre players and the game is fun enough and easy enough to understand that losing isn't awful and the prospect of being able to do the cooler poo poo keeps you going. Especially if you take everyone's advice and start small.

# ¿ May 5, 2015 09:00

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

That book was ace. I met Ian Watson in 2013. All round cool dude.

# ¿ May 7, 2015 18:09

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Cthulhu Wars is fantastic. Dreadball is a good shout but assembly is a bitch.

# ¿ May 16, 2015 14:11

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Jesus, some of those ships are going to be *huge*.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 15:31

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

berzerkmonkey posted:

It will be bullshit. Everything is guesses or unfounded rumors until GW sends out the info to retailers.

Not bullshit judging by the leaked photos. It's slightly cut off but it sure as hell looks like "lean down and see if you can see any part of the model" or along those lines.

https://twitter.com/Chumphammer

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 21:35

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

quote:

I have touched the promo set. I have seen it. It is real. Here's what I know.

- you do not need to re-base your armies. Bases have one function only; to make your model stand up. All measurement is done from the model itself. A wing, a horn, the very tip of a sword sticking out...doesn't matter. If you want to re-base your army, stick your models on tiny weights so you can group them up as tightly as possible. Why? Because each model now fights against any model in a 360 degree arc that is up to 3" away.

- army books are gone but the new rules are free. And not just the rules but the rules for EVERY FANTASY MODEL GW CURRENTLY SELLS. So you're going to want to buy a printer because each unit comes with it's own card. The old stats are gone and have now been replaced with the cards. Whether a Human swings at a Dragon, a Steam Tank, or a Zombie, he hits on a 4+. Zombies however are easy to hit so on the Zombie card they might have a rule that anything swinging at them gets +1 to hit so the Human would then hit on a 3+. However when the Human swings on a Chaos Warrior, he may hit on a 4+ but because of their armor, he may be -1 to wound them. Every unit has its own cards (I now understand why this is a low model count game). You can now field anything from any army. If you want an army to consist of warp lightning cannons led by a Wood Elf on a dragon, knock yourself out. But the minimum unit size is whatever was sold in the box. Witch Elves are sold in boxes of 10 so that is their minimum unit size. Only 1 Screaming Bell comes in a box so minimum unit size is 1. There are no maximum unit sizes. Weapon specifications also come on the cards. Elvish archers have a bow, it shoots 24" and always hits on a 4+ for example. Orcs have Choppas that give +1 to wound on the charge. It's all on the cards themselves which is why the rules pack is so small.

- Brettonians and Beastmen still exist. There are cards for EVERY model.

- Whatever your units used to do, it has all changed. It might be the same. But it probably isn't.

- Wizards have cards just like everyone else. But they list the spells they can cast. So magic does exist. A Goblin Shaman casts different spells than a Necromancer.

- This game cannot be used for tournament play. When Player A achieves one of a handful of victory objectives (like killing Player B's General), Player B then gets a "hail mary" shot where they can specify a particular condition they have to meet and if they do it, they win. For example, Player A kills Player B's General. Player B picks the option to kill player A's General within a single turn. If he does it, Player B wins. If not, Player A wins. It's like adding weights to the winner to make his actual winning more difficult.

And then we run into the real problems. I am going to guess that the geniuses at GW did not bother to playtest the game because I saw no rules for fielding armies. Just show up, put down some models.
"I brought 39 Skaven Slaves led by an Ogre. What did you bring?"
"I brought 40 Star Dragons."

WTF?! There is no points system? Like...none?!?!?! Just throw some **** on the table and start rolling dice?! Are you freaking kidding me??????? Ok, I get that you can now buy a box of anything and you can play. They figured out a way to beat the high entrance cost of the game. But...words fail me at the stupidity of the game. In its current release form, it is completely unplayable. In absolutely no way do I see how this could be even fun as it is. Without some kind of balance, there is no game. Now the rules are free and in theory they could update them at any time with point costs. And if that happens instantaneously, great! But IMHO the folks at GW needed to get it right and in the beginning or there will just be an exodus of players. If they fix this 3 months from now, people will have found a new game they like and not bother with the train wreck this looks to be. I would guess they have 30 days to fix it or their fantasy product is done.

#8theditionforever

Dude from the UK WH forum

The hail mary poo poo sounds like the worst of Dreadfleet

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 22:38

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

You can look at the screenshots for confirmation of the "just bring whatever" aspect of it.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 23:01

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

GW Death Pool 2014-2015: As long as you've got your elf, that's the main... oh

# ¿ Jun 30, 2015 17:44

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

It feels like they considered Dreadfleet to be an excellent starting point for their rules moving forward.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2015 20:57

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Spiderdrake posted:

Where do you get an ore from a god-king

Depends how much fibre he has in his diet

# ¿ Jun 30, 2015 21:53

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

enri posted:

So today me and my mate are going to play a 3 warscroll sized game.... yay? or nay?

That's cool. You get your unit of 12 dwarfs with hammers, your unit of 12 dwarfs with pickaxes, and your hero dwarf on his shield with some adorable dwarf buddies.

He takes a unit of 30 mounted chaos warriors, 30 dragon ogres, and his super-saiyan motherfucker general on a dragon the size of a house.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 11:24

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 09:44

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

ijyt posted:

I keep seeing this pop up and like, are you guys too timid to talk to your opponent (preferably you're playing with friends??) and be like "that's bullshit"?

Oh, make no mistake, the only GW product I'm likely to play with friends is Epic. Because we actually like Good Games with Good Rules.

My group is focused mostly on boardgames where you live or die on the quality and clarity of the rules, and balance is a legit thing. We're friends but that doesn't mean we don't see the opponent as a challenge to be beaten. The rules are there to facilitate a contest.

Having to bargain with your opponent over something as core as what models you're allowed to bring and how many without any defining framework beyond the vaguest of groupings is a loving dumb situation. Even the grognards who play Tomorrow's War and games of that ilk understand that there has to be some sort of balancing factor, even if it's just the scenario and you're not intended to "win".

# ¿ Jul 1, 2015 15:21

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