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Watching the sequels to Paradise Lost, its really hard to tell if the step-dad is a legit suspect or if the filmmakers just really really wanted a compelling alternate theory. The guy is a weirdo, and that's obvious to anyone who sees the interviews. Its easy, especially for anyone who grew up with police procedurals like Law & Order, to look at him and see the typical "gotcha" killer revealed at the end of the episode. He is suspicious for several reasons. 1. He is a known weirdo in the community 2. He is the step-father of one of the victims. The fact that he wasn't actually the kid's father makes him more suspicious to people. 3. Before the physical evidence basically proved the Three innocent, this guy just wouldn't let up about how guilty they were. He really appeared to have a vested interest in proving they were guilty, beyond the fact that they were already convicted in prison for the crimes. He seemed to care about public opinion. 4. After the bite mark was found he coincidentally had all of his own teeth pulled. Some say it was to prevent a comparison, as he was already suspected by that point. So really 3 out of these 4 points are pretty weak. Most people start to take him seriously as a suspect when they hear about the teeth being pulled, but taken on its own that really doesn't mean a whole lot. The guy is a hardcore redneck and probably had terrible hygiene, and its not like he got them pulled a few days after the bite mark was found. Still, there's something off about him in interviews, its hard to articulate what it is. There's an air of bullshit around him, and that can be pretty disturbing when he's talking about a triple murder. He may have bullshitted his way out of it.
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May 19, 2014 20:11
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Lampsacus posted:I've always known about Jonestown and read the wiki pages ages ago. But that doco.. Oh my! And that audio too! The Congressman's visit seemed to seal the deal, although what happened was probably inevitable. Jones had planned to show Congressman Ryan only a very limited, surface portion of Jonestown that they had set up specifically for his visit. I think it worked for a little while, but then like you said, multiple people handed notes to his team asking for help. Ryan's mistake was probably in being up front with Jones that several people had asked to leave instead of getting the gently caress out of there as quickly and quietly as possible. Once the Congressman was dead everybody was hosed.
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May 28, 2014 14:42
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Tea Bone posted:Yep, the fact that these were once completely normal people is really hosed up. It really hits home how anyone could be brought into cult in a time of weakness. The bit about them having to hide for fear of guards shooting them, were the guards actually instructed to shoot anyone who refused to kill themselves, or where they just there to imply it? From the wiki: "A total of 909 Temple members died in Jonestown, all but two from apparent cyanide poisoning" One of them was obviously Jones himself, I'm not sure about the other, but it looks although nobody was shot trying to escape. It's mind blowing to think that with the exception of the few who hid, nobody tried to actively resist. Also the guards themselves must have taken the poison willingly. I just can't imagine how brain washed they must have been to go through with it after everyone else was dead. The other gunshot victim was Jones' personal nurse, so its possible that they were the last two alive and he's the one that shot her. Nobody knows exactly. There was one woman on the tape, and she became one of the more well known victims because of this, that grabbed the microphone and tried to debate Jones and refute the philosophical bullshit that he was using to justify the suicide. Her name was Christine I think, in the end she died of poisoning too though. I think a large number of the victims most likely saw it as a choice between dying peacefully and getting shot. What they didn't know was that the cyanide was not a peaceful death, the first people to take the poison were carried off presumably so that those still alive wouldn't see them in pain, convulsing, etc.
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May 29, 2014 15:48
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KoRMaK posted:I'm doing my best to avoid reading the article, but are you implying that these people were forced at gunpoint to drink the kool-aid? Like they showed up, and had second thoughts about it, and then there he was with a gun to ensure that you didn't back out? I didn't know that part. Totally speculation on my part based on the fact that basically every single one of them took the poison, and there were in fact guards there with guns. It seems very very unlikely that at least some of the people didn't disagree with the plan but the alternative was clearly still death, just slightly different. When everyone came to gather around and listen to Jim Jones' final speech they didn't know that's what was happening exactly. They didn't know yet that the Congressman was dead, and Jones' speech is the first time they are told that this is definitely the end. They didn't show up to the pavilion knowing what was going to happen.
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May 29, 2014 16:19
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BioMe posted:
A scary prospect isn't it? What if it turned out that's how it actually works? To get along day-to-day humans have a need to "know" themselves. But the brain is a very scary in how much it controls our "self" and it is not easy to come to terms with the idea that something going wrong in there changes everything about us. Basebf555 has a new favorite as of 16:40 on Jul 30, 2014 |
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Jul 30, 2014 16:37
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BioMe posted:Most people like that do in fact cope without committing several murders, yes. No arguing that point, you're right. The person at fault for the murders is 100% Dahmer. I'm not sure why you think that's the issue being discussed though.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:36
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I think some people in this thread really don't even understand what the word "sympathy" means and what it entails. That in itself is scary and unnerving, but sadly not very surprising. Speaking for myself only, I've found I can feel sympathy for literally anyone if I learn enough about them.
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Jul 31, 2014 15:18
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ravenkult posted:It's kinda hosed up though to say ''I feel bad for Dahmer'' yet no one is talking about his victims. Where's the sympathy for the actual people that got murdered because of this rear end in a top hat? Dude's famous and nobody remembers the victim's names. That's certainly a fair point, it sucks that Dahmer's name will go down in history and nobody will ever remember the names of his victims. As for sympathy of course I have plenty of sympathy for any murder victim, but I think sometimes its easy to assume that something like that goes without saying. Sympathy for Dahmer himself is a more interesting topic for discussion because to me it says a lot about the human condition in general.
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Jul 31, 2014 17:17
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Solice Kirsk posted:Do yourself a favor and read the wikipedia page before you watch it. I found it to be very dry and uninteresting until I read up on the murders and gave it a rewatch. I agree. The movie sometimes drops you into scenes where you may not fully understand the circumstances if you don't have knowledge of the case beforehand. There's a few very disturbing scenes in the movie but knowing what happens off screen makes it even worse(or better I guess depending on your viewing tastes).
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Jul 31, 2014 18:54
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Cobweb Heart posted:My unnerving experience is realizing that some people are worried they might run out of sympathy, and they apparently think they can mathematically determine who's worth it. I know that's not really what you think, but look at what you wrote! You knows sympathy just means pity or regret in these contexts? It's like saying "ain't that a shame". You put it more clearly and succinctly than I ever could(and I tried). The only thing I'm still hoping is maybe there is a semantics problem here, like maybe sympathy has taken on some new meaning I'm not aware of.
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Aug 1, 2014 02:23
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BioMe posted:Plus it doesn't let you be holier-than-thou with people whose hearts aren't bursting with love for all of humanity. The people you're saying are holier-than-thou were simply defending themselves. The discussion wasn't an argument at all until you and others posted about how disgusting it is that somebody could feel sympathy for Dahmer. So who was really holier-than-thou in that situation?
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Aug 1, 2014 14:54
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SheepNameKiller posted:I choose not to have sympathy for these people, because there's no need to. I actually do think what people choose to talk about causes a limited amount of attention to be directed towards more important issues. Even if sympathy is an infinite resource, where you pay your attention tends to determine how you direct it. See I would love to be able to do that, and I'm being 100% sincere when I say that. It doesn't feel to me like I have a choice of whether or not to feel sympathy or empathy, it kind of just happens. I think you make a good point though because the more I learn about somebody it becomes impossible to not feel sympathy, but maybe that means I'm spending my time learning about the wrong people. I have a criminal justice degree so I've spent a lot of time in various classes hearing about terrible people. Basebf555 has a new favorite as of 15:45 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 15:36
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Seems like the chances of humanity surviving long enough for any of that to matter should be incredibly small.
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Aug 2, 2014 05:58
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The fact that Jack the Ripper knew the police patrol patterns in that area doesn't mean he was some suave Ted Bundy type, and it doesn't mean he couldn't have been mentally ill, or a Jewish immigrant. There were a ton of Jewish immigrants in Whitechapel at that time and a guy like Kosminski would have blended in with all the rest. Its one reason he wasn't arrested or charged, because there were a ton of similar immigrants in the area and even some of them had names almost identical to Kosminski. The attacks were brutal and frenzied, overkill to the extreme. The double murder in Mitre Squre demonstrates that this was a guy who wasn't really all that focused on not getting caught. He didn't get what he wanted/needed from the first one, so even though police were alerted and the smart thing to do would be to leave the area, he instead felt compelled to find another victim ASAP. If the facts of that report do end up checking out, I think it goes a pretty long way towards closing the book on the Ripper. Its just too much of a coincidence for me that the clothes a victim was murdered in have DNA from one of the top-5 suspects in the case. There were plenty of prostitutes in Whitechapel, and plenty of guys patronizing them. For this one specific guy's DNA to be found on this one specific prostitutes shawl is pretty conclusive in my mind.
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Sep 11, 2014 15:37
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Noisycat posted:
Good for you for making the decision to call, the bottom line is its the right thing to do. If you find yourself hesitating because you're worried about how your grandmother will be treated, think about the families of the people that were poisoned, and how they have never had any answers as to what happened. Don't use the fact that he's dead as an excuse not to call, because there are people still alive who suffer because they don't know what happened to their loved one. Sorry if that comes of as judgmental, and it sounds like you've arrived at the right decision, but please follow through.
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Oct 23, 2014 15:20
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VidaGrey posted:This was excellent, loving sad, and frustrating to read. It's pretty terrifying how Corrll was able to manipulate 2 seemingly normal teens to do horrible things and I cannot believe how everything was just sort of brushed off by the police. Even afterwards, everyone wanted to pretend like this huge crime never happened. I never even heard about it until I read this article. The article pointed out that part of the reason it didn't get attention is because right around that time there were a few other serial killers who were caught and ended up on television and having very public trials(Bundy, Berkowitz). Corll was dead and there weren't even very many pictures of him, so it wasn't as good a story for the media to run with as a guy like Bundy who was a complete ham.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:33
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Jack Gladney posted:He has an IQ of 70: 69 or below qualifies for disability services and qualifies as an exemption from the death penalty. I have no problem believing he was led to say everything in his confession and that he was incapable of understanding what he was saying. Yea it seems fairly common with false confession cases that the person had low enough intelligence to where they didn't understand that confessing means they will be in jail for a long time. I think in one of the Paradise Lost movies Misskelley said he thought at the time that if telling the truth wasn't working then the only way to be allowed to go home must be to just say what they want me to say. Innocent people with low intelligence don't seem to be able to put it together that the cops don't believe they are innocent are looking to close the case above all else. A lot of times you'll even hear convicts of normal intelligence say stuff like "Well I knew I didn't do it, so I couldn't even wrap my head around the idea that I might actually get convicted." A person with Misskelley's IQ could have had that kind of childlike innocent quality but dialed up to 11.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:43
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Good News Everyone posted:
^^^^Didn't see that until I had already posted, I'll shut up now. I actually fall a lot more on your side of things than the other. I certainly don't believe the WM3 should have been convicted, but I don't feel like I know with 100% certainty that they're innocent like a lot of people seem to. I think what you're having a hard time with regarding the confessions is how the mind of a person with Misskelleys IQ works, especially in such a high-stress situation. Its very believable to me that his mind simply didn't make the connection between what he was confessing to and any negative consequences. Misskelley, knowing he was innocent, may not have ever realized that anybody would think he might be lying. So in his mind confessing was a technicality that would allow this to be over and he could go home, of course they couldn't actually think he did it.
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Dec 12, 2014 16:10
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Yea I always thought it was strange that the cannibal guy from Japan has been able to live such a public life without any real problems that I know of. I mean I know Dexter isn't real but I'd think the guy would have to fear for his safety, or at least become a recluse and withdraw from the public. What about the family of the girl he murdered? Do they get like half his income or something?
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Dec 19, 2014 16:53
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Kimmalah posted:No people kind of jumped to the conclusion during the media craze because of the old "it's always the parents" thing, but there really wasn't a whole lot of proof to support that. Most people who actually investigate the case seem to conclude the evidence points to an intruder. Yea I believe it took a while for it to be released to the public that DNA not matching the Ramsay's had been found on her underwear. The fact that the body was in the house the whole time is a big one that convinces people it was the Ramsay's but it was big loving house and there were rooms or something off to the side of the basement that nobody ever really spent any time in. That's on the police for not checking every nook and cranny, but sadly poo poo like that does happen.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:08
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Jesus Christ what the hell were the parents thinking? I had no idea what happened exactly until I read that Wikipedia page. So apparently the Mcanns just left her in an unlocked room while they went down the block to eat dinner like it was no big deal? My parents took me on plenty of trips as a kid, they'd never have let me out of their sight, and I definitely wouldn't have been left to my own devices in an unlocked hotel room. I can certainly see how it made them look suspicious, that's not just everyday negligence.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:34
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When I grew up it would have probably been more that my parents didn't trust me to sit patiently in an unlocked room and wait for them, not any fear of strangers or sexual predators. I'd have opened the door and gone out to explore at least a little bit. Leaving a sleeping kid alone is worse, what if they wake up and don't know where you went? They're guaranteed to leave the room and wander around in that case. There's just too many bad things that can happen, even in the late 80's my parents never would have done that.
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Feb 9, 2015 21:02
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KozmoNaut posted:That is some Valhalla Rising-type hosed up poo poo right there Seems like it would make a great movie. There's like 4-5 awesome parts there that I could see legitimate actors being excited to play if it was done right.
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Feb 24, 2015 16:03
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Anoia posted:Modern ghost ships like the Kaz II are pretty freaky. You'd think it wouldn't happen with all the technology we have, and yet... Well if the video shows them bullshitting on the boat not wearing lifejackets, they probably were hit by a wave they didn't see coming and swept overboard.
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Feb 24, 2015 21:38
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The problem with Everest is that most people who go there to climb it have put in a shitload of their financial resources to make it happen. So what ends up happening is when somebody dies the expeditions keep going pretty much as planned, which from the outside seems very uncaring and distasteful. Consider that last year when a bunch of sherpas dies the others refused to continue for the rest of the season out of respect. The sherpas care more about respecting the dead on the mountain because Everest is a job to them, they don't have their personal pride and life savings wrapped up in whether or not they summit on this or that particular attempt. In my opinion it shouldn't be legal to climb a mountain if its impossible to get an incapacitated climber down and the only option is leaving someone to die. Just close the whole loving mountain and just let everyone enjoy beautiful photographs of it.
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Feb 26, 2015 18:24
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Leon Einstein posted:What is it about Everest that generates such terrible opinions? Yeah, let's close off anything that might result in death and cover the world in bubble wrap too. Yes, this is exactly what I said. Precisely. Most other stuff that's dangerous at least allows for rescue. loving space astronauts are able to be rescued for godsakes.
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Feb 26, 2015 18:49
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Leon Einstein posted:Perhaps there is the illusion of contingency plans for astronaut rescues, but the Challenger and Columbia tragedies show otherwise. Those accidents weren't out of the blue; they were foreseen and nothing was done. Climbing Everest is pure recreation at this point, there's no new discovery to be made there. There are countless reasons why it's in our best interest as a species to continue to go into space regardless of the danger. When people walk by a dying person and continue climbing, they are doing so because they value getting to the top over another human life, regardless of whether or not it was possible to actually rescue the person. That's the problem with the heavy investment it takes to climb Everest, when somebody gets killed bungee jumping or something like that nobody has any problem packing it up and going home for the day. People who have a significant chunk of their life savings invested in Everest are usually showing up there in the wrong mindset from the start.
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Feb 26, 2015 20:06
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Leon Einstein posted:I still think anyone making moral judgments about leaving people on a mountain is stupid. I'm not necessarily judging the decisions some climbers are forced to make up there to protect their own lives, I'm saying the decision should be taken out of their hands because nobody should be up there anymore. Close it down.
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Feb 26, 2015 20:59
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I just don't know any other recreational activities where its every man for themselves, and deaths are expected and part of the deal when you sign up. I guess cave-diving but I feel the same way about that; caves deemed dangerous enough by experts should be closed permanently to the public.
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Feb 26, 2015 21:31
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NiceGuy posted:
I remember this kind of issue coming up in the context of Jeffrey Dahmer some months back, probably in this thread. Having sympathy for someone who had a severe mental illness isn't the same as excusing their actions, which is an idea that some people seem to have a problem with. So while I agree with you that people like Elliot Rodger or Breznik should face the consequences for what they did, I also believe that's possible without "condemning them as the monsters they are". When you take that attitude towards someone(or a group of people), you are closing off the opportunity to learn about them and maybe prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future.
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Mar 27, 2015 18:29
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The Master is a really insightful take on how cults like Scientology can exist and thrive, and the process by which people are developed into true believers that will fight ferociously to protect them. Joaquin Phoenix's character is an amalgam of every type of person who would be susceptible to this type of thing. He's a severely damaged(by war and earlier traumas) and pretty much doesn't function as a human being anymore. Even worse he's become invisible, he stumbles around drunkenly groping at the world in general and nobody even notices anymore, he's part of the background. When he stumbles onto the Master and his group all of that changes, all of the sudden here's a bunch of people who seem to care about him and root for him to succeed(at their bullshit "tests"). They feed him and put resources into him, they value him. Its pretty easy to see how all of that becomes addictive, and he doesn't want to give it up regardless of whether the actual Cause is legitimate or not. I'd guess pretty much every person who falls victim to a cult has at least one quality in common with Freddie Quell.
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Mar 31, 2015 16:24
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Ernie Muppari posted:this is that december 11th thing right? Be honest, did you even know what the term "ground zero" meant in a general sense?
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Apr 24, 2015 15:57
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outlier posted:That case has always puzzled me. There's just so much that points back at the friend, it's staggering he wasn't prime suspect number 1 from the start. (With the caveat that we don't get to see the decisions made in an open case, so just maybe the police were able to dismiss him early on.) In my mind its finally solved because the friend(Owens) has now proven that he's the kind of guy that will straight-up murder people if they have something he wants bad enough. He killed that couple so he could take all the expensive poo poo they had in their house, and he killed Quinn probably because he had a wad of cash to pay for the car they were going to look at. Or he killed Quinn because Quinn bumped into his car and Owens is a psychopath. Either way I find it incredibly unlikely that anybody but Owens did it. The only mystery left is what the deal was with the puppy and lipstick on Quinns car, but there could be any number of reasons for that. Maybe Owens did some random poo poo to try to throw attention away from himself, if the police are looking for some random serial killer they aren't looking at him. Who knows.
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May 19, 2015 16:33
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I feel like those are the faces of bullshit, and not in the sense that Scientology is bullshit(that much is self-evident), but I don't even think these people believe what they're saying. They're probably struggling actors who have latched on to Scientology as a way to climb the ladder and this is an opportunity to get their face out there in the Scientology community. These are the same kind of hyper-enthusiastic facial expressions you see from a salesperson at the furniture store or something like that, people who have actually reached some sort of true wisdom or enlightenment in their life are more chill about it.
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May 21, 2015 14:59
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Kurtofan posted:it's depressing how many American actors are scientologists, what the hell happened to this industry that so many adhere to a scam alien cult. If I were seriously trying to make a career as an actor I'd probably go that route too, because I really don't give a poo poo about any religion so why not get in on one that's going to give me networking opportunities with industry people.
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May 21, 2015 16:29
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Ozz81 posted:You can pretty much say this about any organized religion, really - all of them are based on the same thing, just some decided to change up their stories and such to sound a little different. It's all brainwashing and conditioning, the only difference is that Scientology is way more crazy about ruining people if they decide to leave or let their "secrets" out. For me if a person is a true believer(not just in it for the connections, jobs, etc.) in Scientology that is a sign of low intelligence because of how recently it was invented. I don't judge people who follow the older religions by the same standard because I see it as more understandable to be fooled by a thousand year old religion rather than something cooked up by an author who lived during your own lifetime. But yea in the end I consider all religions to be equally full of poo poo.
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May 21, 2015 17:14
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I've always been under the impression(I admit I've purposely not looked into it because if its not true I want to enjoy the fantasy) that the Pacific Northwest has forests in it that are so goddamn huge, that it becomes technically possible for an undiscovered great ape to be living there. The idea is that nobody ever finds remains because you'd have to stumble on them within X amount of days after the animal died, otherwise it would be completely carried away by scavengers. These areas see so few people in them per year it would be extremely unlikely for a person to stumble on a body during the very short window it will be there. Of course I've never seen any real evidence that convinces me Bigfoot does exist, but I've never really been convinced that its impossible either.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:28
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Chichevache posted:Otoh, I found a rock here in California that prevents Bigfoot attacks. No one holding the rock has ever been abducted or harmed by a wendigo, yeti, abominable snowman, or any other large, primate-like, cryptids. lol yea I kind of expected a little ribbing when I posted that. What can I tell you I want to live in a world where its still possible for Bigfoot to exist.
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Jun 10, 2015 17:53
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:You know he used to, right? Yea, I've seen plenty of lovely history channel documentaries so I know all about Gigantopithecus. Its that plus stories like the discovery of the mountain gorilla that make my fantasy hard to let go of. I remember some years ago when that con-artist guy held a press conference claiming to have found a Bigfoot corpse, which he had saved on-ice in a cooler. It turned out to be a rubber costume but I was pretty excited for like 24 hours!
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Jun 10, 2015 18:42
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Stare-Out posted:Yeah, the DNA does cast a shadow on the case against Allen but there are also theories that the Zodiac may have had accomplices but like most stuff with the case, it's circumstantial at best and just about impossible to prove. DNA is a strong but of evidence but I wouldn't say it means the chances of Allen not being the Zodiac are 0%. I know the movie really pushed the theory that Allen had a friend who at the very least knew what he was doing and wrote the letters. Was that just thrown in there to explain why his DNA wouldn't have been on the envelopes or is there something in the real case that supports that idea? Louie Myers, one of the more recent suspects, is interesting because he's got just as much circumstantial evidence against him as Allen. He can be connected to three of the victims, had access to the type of boots used in the crimes, and was conveniently overseas during a two year period when there were no new Zodiac letters. I wouldn't just automatically dismiss suspects who popped up recently because the killer seems like the type who would want to take credit, and it makes sense that he'd make some sort of attempt to tell the public what he'd done as long as he knew he'd never be punished(old age/imminent death).
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Jun 16, 2015 16:10
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