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It's antisemitic of y'all not to have called me to this thread earlier. What have I missed?
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Nov 20, 2014 05:28
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SedanChair posted:It's not a derail, this is literally what the arguments on the other side are. We can have an echo chamber or we can have poo poo lies and wild accusations of anti-semitism. These are your choices in debating and discussing I/P. Just remember, going hog wild just ain't kosher.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:35
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CommieGIR posted:Unless its going hog wild on the colonies How DARE you? Clearly they're going Hebrew National Kosher Frank (tm) wild.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:39
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murphyslaw posted:I wonder why TIC people feels the need to trivialize antisemitism by insinuating that every joe schmoe that comes along with a few "oh dears" about the colonial project of the State of Israel are antisemites. If your rivals are caricatures, you do not need to examine yourself or your views. It's really that simple. Now, as for content: has anybody yet brought up how the head of the Shin Bet openly contradicted Netanyahu by saying that Abbas was actually helping Israeli security, rather than hindering it and inciting for violence against Jews and all that other rubbish?
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Nov 20, 2014 06:22
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Smudgie Buggler posted:I guess there is always the choice not to murder people going to shul. A thought. You mean like legal terrorism and nonviolent terrorism and UN terrorism? I'd love to be able to make an argument to the Palestinians that not doing vile things is going to get them somewhere, but Israeli policy of rewarding terrorists and punishing collaborators is sure making that difficult. American diplomatic immunity at the UNSC ain't helping, either.
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Nov 20, 2014 06:48
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, that's an example of a wrong opinion. These murders are wrong. Therefore, extending policies which encourage the motivation and the opportunity for them, say expanding settlements by displacing Palestinians and invading Muslim places of worship, is also wrong. Guess what Israeli response has been recently, though? By the way, anybody hear about the city of Ashkelon, inside the Green Line, now barring Israeli Arabs from building bomb shelters at kindergartens, supposedly as a response to the attack in Jerusalem?
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Nov 20, 2014 16:50
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Job Truniht posted:No one is going to believe your claim that the Israeli government is amoral, MIGF. The Israeli government is deeply religious and very socially conservative. The Israeli government is split up between people who are deeply religious, people who are deeply racist, people who are deeply neoliberal, and some combinations thereof. They all feel that they are being entirely moral and justified, and constantly use whatever would most pander to their constituents to further justify their actions. fade5 posted:If you want to know why Israel's the bad guy in this, here you go: Israel's the bad guy because they literally have "Corruption of Blood" as an official policy that they currently use. The most absurd part of this is that the reason this practice had been halted in the past was due to lack of efficacy. It doesn't work but they're doing it anyway to appease constituents.
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Nov 20, 2014 20:48
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My Imaginary GF posted:For too many in this world, "stopping the occupation" means "ceasing to exist as a nation." I guess "too many" is a subjective term, because it's clearly not the Arab League, Organization of the Islamic Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 21:20
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Job Truniht posted:Romans have a strong historical claim to Israeli land. We should give it to the Vatican. Woah, woah, now, let's not turn this into Clancychat! The Sum of All Fears
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Nov 20, 2014 21:38
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zeal posted:No need to go that far, just rewind to before the British Mandate. And God bless the Ottoman Empire. Serioustalk, the Jews were unhappy as a millet, and quite a few of them reacted by finding ways of getting membership in European Capitulations, which created a vicious circle of alienation which was working in parallel to early Zionist initiatives. In some ways similar to how Jews in Algeria, just as native as the Muslims, ultimately were alienated and mostly left for France because of French favoritism during the French Algeria period.
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Nov 20, 2014 21:56
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:A point I am curious about : Is there any historical equivalent to the Israeli lobby in the United States - ie, a less politically and militarily powerful nation creating institutions that wielded a ton of influence over a generally far more powerful one? How much influence is this, though? It's about this one issue, and it's not like Israel can get away with just everything. For example, when Israel was going to sell AWACS-esque technology to China in 2000, the US said hell no, and Israel backed down. I think it has more to do with the fact that there is nowhere near as powerful a lobby for Palestinian interests.
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Nov 21, 2014 05:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:I dunno, I have a really good feeling about this next round of peace talks. Peace talks? When is that happening?
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Nov 21, 2014 06:44
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Xander77 posted:Miri Regev, of "refugees are a cancer" fame, condescends to the most minimal standards of hypocritical moralistic platitudes with "Not all Arabs are bad, I have some Arab friends" and is immediately assaulted by a wave of "leftist traitor whore" comments. Fun times ahead. All those responses are precious, but here's a real nice one: חשבתי שאין לך חשיבה רוחנית בריאה ואכן צדקתי המכנס ג'ינס עושה את שלו למה שתדגלי ברוחניות בזמן שאת לא מתלבשת צנוע אם את לא מבינה זה מלחמת הטומאה נגד הקדושה גויים(!) נגד יהודים לאורך כל הדורות אנחנו צריכים לחזור בתשובה ולהלחם ההרג יחזיר אותם חזרה לעליונים ואנחנו נטהר את הארץ יש רק שני הגדרות לערבי טוב 1.גר צדק 2.ערבי שהורג ערבי אחר בגלל שהוא שונא יהודים תלמדי מקרא ותביני כשבאנו לארץ עשינו את כל הטעויות האפשריות... בגלל זה אנחנו במלחמה ערבים מבינים בכח כמו סוסים Rough translation: "I thought you didn't have a healthy spiritual frame of mind and I was right the jeans are doing their job why would you push for spirituality when you are not dressed modestly In case you don't realize this is a war of the impure against the holy, gentiles(!) against Jews throughout the generations We need to become born again and fight the killing will bring them back to the heights and we will cleanse the land There are only two definitions for a good Arab 1. One who has converted to Judaism 2. An Arab who kills another Arab because he hates Jews Read the Bible and understand that when we came to this land we made all possible mistakes... that is why we are at war Arabs only understand force like horses" ETA: SedanChair posted:"Is Israel apartheid y/n" In the West Bank definitely, inside the Green Line and in the Golan Heights, plenty of systemic racism but I would say apartheid is not an appropriate term. In Gaza "open-air prison" is probably the best descriptor. quote:"Is Israel genocidal y/n" It is more concerned with ethnic cleansing than genocide, so I would go with the first term rather than the second, even though the second is the likely outcome of a continued status quo. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 16:33
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Plek posted:Ethnic cleansing IS genocide, so why bother making a distinction on the term? No it's not. Genocide is more about the elimination, ethnic cleansing is about the removal. The distinction matters for a variety of reasons, and it's good to use proper terminology so that you are not distracted by this pedantry in "real time". That's why you don't accuse someone of murder when what they've done is manslaughter, etc. An Angry Bug posted:Because it helps muffle the screaming remains of his conscience. What is weighing on my conscience, precious? 
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Nov 21, 2014 16:53
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down with slavery posted:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...4093_story.html It's a free internet, you can call it whatever you like. As for whether it's up to snuff for genocide, nope, do not think so. Blatant disregard up to targeting of civilians for the purpose of punishment, yeah, sure, you've got that there. I'd focus on accusations you can substantiate. ETA: Plek posted:Regardless, with your definition of ethnic cleansing and genocide, how is what Israel doing not genocide? Last time I checked, they weren't letting the Palestinians leave. Actually, while there is quite a bit of that, there is also a lot of not letting them get back. In any event, as I said when I first brought this up, the likely outcome is genocide, but "genocidal" isn't the thing here: it's "ethnic cleansing-happy", with genocide an increasingly acceptable outcome. It's important because it's necessary for understanding the dynamic of repeatedly heightening tensions and creating violent backlash so that genocide becomes palatable to an Israeli public that thirty years ago was expecting its elected leaders to leave Kahane to speak alone on the Knesset until they could pass a law barring his party from running. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 17:02
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An Angry Bug posted:How about cruel, bigoted, violent, callous, immoral and unacceptable? Let's see you deal with words that don't let you weasel out of their definitions. Yes, definitely, definitely, oh hell yes, yes, very much so.
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Nov 21, 2014 17:09
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down with slavery posted:What do you think genocide is? Actually, you know what, gently caress it, it actually is closer to official genocide, or at least attempts thereof, what with the below-starvation-level restrictions on incoming calorie counts and such. They supposedly didn't quite get away with that due to international outrage, but yeah, they've transitioned to downright genocidal towards Gaza. West Bank and Jerusalem it's more ethnic cleansy, although I think they've managed to create sufficient violence in Jerusalem to get it closer to genocidal there, too.
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Nov 21, 2014 17:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:Gee, sounds like how Israel classifies rocket target launch points. I eagerly await when you use the same excuse to justify US SWAT teams assaulting parking garages as drug havens because a trafficker parked their car there a week ago.
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Nov 21, 2014 19:39
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The Insect Court posted:Please point me to the posts advocating for or excusing the killing of Japanese civilians, describing Japanese people as bloodthirsty murderers, greedy thieves, genocidal racists, the equivalent of the Nazis, etc. TIA(thanks in advance) כבר אמרתי לך שאתה חופר? Oh, hold on, you're yet another one of those vehement pro-Israelis who doesn't know the language, right?
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Nov 22, 2014 02:29
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Dead Reckoning posted:Is it really that hard to believe someone might find the full-throttle support for the Palestinian cause espoused by some D&D posters to be misplaced without being secretly pro Israel? When that is the absolute sole thing that person bothers adding to at least two threads I've seen on the subject, I would say that that's quite telling. I've spent pages excoriating people for being racists masquerading as anti-colonialists, but I also do my part to add to the conversation.
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Nov 22, 2014 03:37
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Dead Reckoning posted:It would be that simple, if only it were possible to disentangle the Palestinian plight from the political, ethnic, and religious history of the region. Yeah, except even if you study the political, ethnics, and religious history of that region (which I have), you still find that Israel's doing horrible, abusive, and ultimately self-destructive nonsense, and the IDF are weak-rear end atrocity-happy, over-armed, trigger-happy, chicken-poo poo trumped up thugs, who could drive most of our faithful readers into butchery and suicide bombing. ETA: Dead Reckoning posted:I just don't see any realistic endgame worth putting energy into supporting. Even if Netanyahu's heart grew three sizes tomorrow and Israel unilaterally withdrew behind the 1967 borders, the result would be a bunch of Palestinians killing settlers and kicking people out of their homes, which is what started this mess in the first place, followed by a war in a decade or so when Hamas felt they were ready for another bite at the apple. Where would the Palestinians be kicking settlers out of exactly? A withdrawal would mean the IDF dragging them back to sovereign Israeli territory, like they did with the Gaza settlers, and the North Sinai settlers before them.
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Nov 22, 2014 04:36
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Dead Reckoning posted:And then what? Seriously, poof, all Israeli settlement activity and policing outside of Jewish enclaves stops tomorrow. All you have to do now is sell the Israeli public on the idea that they're going to have to accept the occasional rocket attack and synagogue meat cleaver murder until Hamas works it out of their system, and then solve the issue of who has access to what holy sites, find a way to guarantee the security of settlers on the Palestinian side of the line, decide how to deal with the intransigent ones, apportion water rights, and deal with the fact that the Palestinian state(s?) will be crushingly impoverished without trillions of dollars of development aid no one is willing to pay for. Yeah, I mean, how can you do anything but occupy and displace all minorities and poor people anywhere because some of them are going to end up being violent? 
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Nov 22, 2014 04:48
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Dead Reckoning posted:Yes, that's a wonderful and beautiful principle, but in the real world any durable solution is going to require securing Israeli cooperation, and offering the selling point of "If a minority of Palestinians continue to attack Israelis, we will condemn that too" is ridiculous. Yeah, that's why Abbas has been repeatedly proving his security forces as useful for Israeli safety (as the Head of Shin Bet recently admitted to the Knesset), and why Hamas has, when treated fairly, enforced ceasefires on other armed groups. They have proven themselves quite a bit more reliable than Israel, only to be shat upon.
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Nov 22, 2014 04:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:I do, and I hold their organizations culpable for their actions. From my vantage, it really appears that you ascribe little agency to Palestinians. Hard to hold any organization culpable when you keep disrupting their command and control structures, as Israel had been doing since the start of the Second Intifada, if not earlier. Or are you forgetting how Israel keeps withholding tax dollars needed to pay security personnel, or bombs police headquarters on the reg?
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Nov 22, 2014 05:01
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Dead Reckoning posted:You're asking one side to back off from a position of absolute dominance and just accept the fact that it will most likely result in the deaths of more of their citizens. No matter how "moral" it may be, it isn't something that any state would do. You shut the gently caress up with doomsday hypotheticals and respond to these right now: Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, that's why Abbas has been repeatedly proving his security forces as useful for Israeli safety (as the Head of Shin Bet recently admitted to the Knesset), and why Hamas has, when treated fairly, enforced ceasefires on other armed groups. They have proven themselves quite a bit more reliable than Israel, only to be shat upon. Absurd Alhazred posted:Hard to hold any organization culpable when you keep disrupting their command and control structures, as Israel had been doing since the start of the Second Intifada, if not earlier. Or are you forgetting how Israel keeps withholding tax dollars needed to pay security personnel, or bombs police headquarters on the reg?
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Nov 22, 2014 05:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. You don't develop a strong nation by complaining about how unfair those with an interest in your failure are treating you, you do it by developing a stable political order with its own tax base that doesn't rely upon foreign interests playing by your rules. This is the last time I am going to tell you this: ISRAEL EXPLICITLY COLLECTS TAXES "ON BEHALF" OF THE PA. THE PA CANNOT COLLECT TAXES.
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Nov 22, 2014 05:10
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down with slavery posted:Foreign intervention against your state development always occurs. Suck it up PA. Also never have any of your armed groups attack the occupying force. Dead Reckoning posted:That's the crux of the issue: neither side has any reason to trust the other to keep promises, neither side is willing to police its own radicals, the factions that profit from ongoing conflict are too deeply entrenched, and anyone willing to take a risk for peace will be outflanked from the right when hostilities flare again, if not outright shot. No, there is a trustworthy side, it's Palestinian and speaks Arabic.
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Nov 22, 2014 05:19
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My Imaginary GF posted:It was no more a UN school than it was an Israeli school when Hamas used its grounds to attack a foreign power.
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Nov 22, 2014 05:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:Within the last week, two Palestinians attacked a synagogue with the intent of causing as many civilian casualties as possible before they were killed by police. Some Palestinians celebrated in the streets. That level of animosity will not go away overnight, or even within a decade. Do you think any of the Palestinian leadership factions have the will, much less the capability, to stop attacks like this? What does it say about Israeli consideration of the right of return? Yes. Because before Israel went on an arrest and terrorization spree in the West Bank and a senseless bombing campaign in Gaza, and heck, until just say a month ago, the PA under Abbas was holding the peace. Again, even the head of Shin Bet, Israel's secret police, admitted this. quote:If a similar attack occurred after a peace treaty had been signed, do you think it would be reasonable to expect Israel to accept an apology from the Palestinian leadership that they can't stop all fanatics as sufficient? If so, how many mass casualty attacks would you expect Israel to accept? These aren't random hypotheticals, every period of truce between Israel and the Palestinians has involved these flashpoints. What can be done about it? Yeah, just like when something similar occurred with Jordan. That is how international relations work.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:02
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down with slavery posted:Absolutely not. Like you said, a dominant power NEVER gives it up. So why would we? We could have just colonized the entire country. Maybe bulldoze a few homes and start sending settlers. I mean, we never know if those pesky japs are going to fight back. Better to be sure, right? Hell, the Abe government is repeatedly opening old wounds, going to the Yasukuni Shrine, and re-interpreting their constitution to mean that they can use military force to defend allies. And other than China, the regional governments are welcoming it as part of a growing alliance against Chinese expansionism. Best if the US invaded everybody just to be sure.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:07
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Dead Reckoning posted:Jordan had also previously demonstrated an extremely firm commitment to cracking down on terrorist groups on their soil. So does Abbas. So has Hamas. And this is recent, you don't seem to recall how things were when Arafat was still alive, cracking down on Hamas, and getting his cops killed for the trouble.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:16
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Clearly what Israel needs to do is to crack down harder on Palestinians until Fatah and Hamas are deposed and ISIS and Al Qaeda chapters are in control everywhere. Verily, there lies a path for peace for plucky little Israel.
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Nov 22, 2014 06:40
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Dead Reckoning posted:I don't think Israel has an endgame. (I don't think any of the Palestinian factions do either.) They're running the same "attack until the enemy agrees to peace on your terms" plan that worked for them in '67 and '73, but the Palestinians are never going to agree to peace on any terms Israel would consider favorable.  It was Sadat who played that game in '73 and won. And he won because he coupled the willingness to do war with a commitment to peace, both before and after. Israel has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into every single peace initiative. The Oslo stuff only came up after being pushed into Madrid in 1991, and even that was through the Oslo channel Arafat had already opened in 1979.Palestinians already agree to peace on terms that Israel would consider favorable if it didn't have US diplomatic and military backing making the price of the status quo somewhat lower than actually battling the settler movement. It's removing that which will, much like it did in '56, '79 and '91, push them into pragmatism. Either that or getting more soldiers killed. I hope it's not the latter, my brother is being drafted in two years.
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Nov 22, 2014 07:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:Whoever in the Palestinian leadership is able to broker a real peace will die a traitor in the eyes of their militants. Mahmoud "Abu Mazen" Abbas, you moron. I'm surprised he has yet to be assassinated, but that day is nigh. The only thing keeping him safe is just how much Israel is loving him over for his trouble. Although, again, Israel didn't need that to become a viable state at all. Like, who in Hagganah called Ben Gurion a traitor?
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Nov 22, 2014 07:13
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FreshlyShaven posted:I repeat: attacking civilian targets in order to punish the community as a whole and to break the Palestinians' spirit is expressed, popular Israeli policy. Hope you don't mind me fixing that for you.
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Nov 22, 2014 14:07
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syscall girl posted:Your uh analogy has a flaw, I think. Do you not know that the difference between the worth of a life of a gentile and that of a Jew is as much as the difference between that of a base animal and that of a gentile?
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Nov 22, 2014 22:22
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination? Who collects the taxes in the West Bank? Who controls who gets to get in and out of the West Bank and Gaza? Who gets to raid whose homes at all hours without repercussions? Motherfucking Israel does. Not in the imagination, unless you think we are all the dream of the Lord, in which case, His imagination, which is more enforceable than yours, Sela.
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Nov 23, 2014 05:53
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I am sure you will all be relieved that the age-old tension between Jewish and Democratic is set to be resolved. The short version is that Jewish won: if the law overwhelmingly approved by the Cabinet is also approved by the Knesset as a whole, Jewish jurisprudence will be officially cemented as a basis of Israeli law, and Arabic will be officially delisted as the country's second language. This will be a Basic Law, so Supreme Court decisions in future will have to consider it at the same level as the Human Dignity and Freedom Law, etc. (Basic Laws are the creation of a Constitution piecemeal, one law at a time)
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Nov 23, 2014 21:57
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Xander77 posted:Eh. Political Science 101 (right after "the difference between 'ought' and 'is'", as noted by Yltaya): proposed legislation means anything between little and nothing. If and when the law actually is actually enacted (without being struck down by the How about you do it, smart guy? To be fair, I guess this could actually break apart to coalition rather than turn into law. That being said, the Supreme Court is going to have a hard time overturning a new Basic Law if it does pass (say with opposition support from Shas/Yahadut Hatora). Also, if I'm not mistaken, comparison with the previous version would actually show that Netanyahu isn't the hugest rear end in a top hat in his coalition. ETA: Comic relief. This is the logo of a Kosher bakery priding itself on having both ordinary, parve, and sugar-free products:  "Genesis - from Mom's own hands" Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 22:48
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 10:46 |
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Hong XiuQuan posted:"Non-Jews do not need to be resuscitated. Unarmed non-Jews can be shot on sight." - Master of Purity of Arms, the IDF http://972mag.com/idf-trainer-no-need-to-resuscitate-palestinians/99132/ Yeah, nothing improves the stability of a regime than uninhibited violence against its subjects, and nothing improves the effectiveness of medical support than downright racism and discrimination against the injured. We need a :hist99: or :mil99: or something.
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Nov 24, 2014 07:22
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