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Also unlike Iraq, the US sends twice its federal education budget to help Israel kill brown people, instead of invading the country to depose its leader.
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Dec 3, 2014 16:13
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"I sure am upset with Israel for their gross human rights violations, continuous ethnic cleansing and utter disregard for human life. I wish they'd stop." "i personally am concerned that the Palestinians are suffering gross human rights violations, continuous ethnic cleansing and utter disregard for human life. I don't understand why you'd bring up Israel, here in the I/P conflict thread though. I'll just imply that you're an anti-Semite instead of engaging any of the reasons Israel could be relevant." There, that's the logical conclusion of any argument in which you engage TIC. Now please don't. Dead Reckoning posted:Organized violence by the state is generally separate from terrorism for the same reason that taxation and eminent domain are separate from theft. I'm not really sure how those are comparable. What supposed benefit do the Palestinian people gain from being terrorized?
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Dec 5, 2014 13:59
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Chomsky phrases it nicely, it's easy to define terrorism, the problem is defining it in such a way that it only applies to the 'the bad guys'. If your biggest issue with labeling Israel as a terror state is that by those standards the US would be a terror state as well, then state terrorism becomes a pretty meaningless term.
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Dec 5, 2014 16:02
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Dead Reckoning posted:discuss how an effective Palestinian lobby might be organized Sure, let's: Step 1: Do anything at all with the intent of organizing a pro-Palestine lobby Step 2: Be thoroughly attacked and probably slandered by the conservative media machine and AIPAC/the SWC et al. Step 3: No politician wants to associate with you Step 4: ??? Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 23:09
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Also no one was ever made to respond to the revelation that they'd known the teens were dead before they killed several Palestinians and arrested 400 in the search. Nor does anyone particularly care that during the investigation, a group of Jewish Israelis brutally murdered a Palestinian Israeli and the police response (caught on tape) was to beat a false confession out of a (Palestinian) US citizen. Everything happened on the level.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:31
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Prior to the beating footage being released, Tarek made a blog post about the police refusing to cooperate with the investigation unless they got a written "admission" that there had been a family feud over Muhammad being gay. It was nowhere to be found after, I think. E: Although I thought there was footage of him being beaten after he'd already been taken to the station. Maybe I am confusing some things here.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:39
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Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. It's also extremely handy for distracting the Israeli public from domestic issues.
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Dec 10, 2014 00:42
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How dare they forget the Holocaust *ethnically cleanses people based on religion, practices apartheid*
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Dec 17, 2014 18:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Now is not the time to join ICC in order to stir counterproductive anti-semitism on the street in an attempt to refocus back on Israel. The issue is settled: Jews have a right to exist. There is no going back on this issue. "Israel should not be allowed to commit war crimes with impunity" == "Jews don't have a right to exist." I really don't understand what the supposed endgame of this kind of rhetoric is. Why do prominent Israeli politicians and idiots on the internet insist on conflating respect for fundamental human rights with anti-Semitism? All I'm learning is that any objection to anti-Semitism aimed at Israel is probably completely hollow. Setting up a false dichotomy where anti-Semitism is the "correct" answer does a hell of a lot more to stir up anti-Semitism than trying to prevent a volatile nation from commiting war crimes and ethnic cleansing ever could.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:55
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Well, what I know of Gilaad Shalit (?) he was treated humanely and used as a bargaining chip in a bunch of negotiations that Israel consistently refused to follow through on, until they ultimately agreed to release a bunch of prisoners, some of which were never released, and most of which they retroactively made legal to rearrest after they'd been released. E: Er, the point I wanted to make there was that if he'd just been taken prisoner, there's no reason to believe he'd be treated inhumanely, unlike, say a US citizen in Israeli custody or a wrongfully arrested Gitmo prisoner. 
Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 19:42
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"If you don't desire the genocide of Muslims, you desire the genocide of Jews." You can safely refrain from responding to MIGF ever again, as anything he posts will be some unquantified variation of the above sentence, and his response to anything addressed at him will be a reworded version of the same.
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Jan 28, 2015 22:32
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Peztopiary posted:I asked this in the US politics thread and got sent this way so: The Israeli decision to identify so firmly with the Right in America is going to cost them support at some point, yeah? It's not likely to earn them anything, but it's very unlikely to cost them much, either. There's basically nothing to gain politically from support Palestine in the US, while even Obama's lukewarm admonishment of ethnic cleansing and the bombing of a literal Warzaw Ghetto reenactment has caused some backlash. HGH posted:I don't understand US politics, I thought religion and politics were supposed to be separate there? Bahahaha, good one.
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Jan 29, 2015 17:45
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Israel is the only safe place on earth for the Jewish people, who are frankly suicidal if they choose not to move there. Israel is beset on all sides by the bloodthirsty Muslim hordes and will be slaughtered if Obama should suggest one more time that they make a token effort to not bomb children. If US air lines shut down travel for a single day during the Hamas "bombing campaign," that is anti-Semitism. Israel is perfectly safe. What do you mean we can't ethnically cleanse people in the West Bank? Did they have a flag before we got here? That is anti-Semitism. Israel is as safe as Bibi needs it to be at any given time of day.
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Jan 30, 2015 03:08
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Sometimes Xander makes very flippant and bad posts, but other times he posts good and informative things, like that history exam. I appreciate when you take the time to translate this kind of stuff. Anti-semitism has a very clear definition that does not jive with its linguistic roots. Fair on you if if you just didn't know of it, but there's no point arguing against the semantics of it. Language just evolves, and it's not always pretty. Homo- means the gays now, and -phobia means bigotry towards (and literally means figuratively). Islamophobia is the name for bigotry against the rest of the Semitic people, even though the name might make you think it has something to do with religion.
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Jan 30, 2015 15:47
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Okay, that was a facetious remark. Islamophobia also targets Sikhs, Pakistani people, the occasional African or African-American Christian and anyone else caught wearing a turban, niqab, keffiyeh or similar head covering. E: Once Turks and South Asians come into the picture, it has less to do with assuming they're moon-worshipping Sharia-toting suicide bombers and more to do with a generalized bigotry against anyone who looks too foreign, in my experience. There's a generous overlap, but I think Islamophobia is a specific subcategory of racism that I've only seen targeted at people who happen to look "middle eastern" in some way. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 16:29
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And the other lives in a literal reenactment of the Warzaw ghetto and gets bombed every few years or is currently in the process of being ethnically cleansed while being derided as clearly genocidal in intent when appealing to the UN or ICC for help. By a state that insists on being referred to as the representative of a specific religious group.
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Feb 11, 2015 23:37
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HGH posted:I've always been amused at Israel flaunting it's essentially stolen nuclear arsenal while talking nonstop about the nuclear threat of Iran. The Samson doctrine was just preached by one somewhat higher-up military guy who has no influence on actual policy. No one in an actual position of authority has ever mentioned it. Possibly because Israel does not officially have a nuclear arsenal, and I am not sure why anyone is OK with that.
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Feb 12, 2015 13:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The Afrikaners and other whites were also a small minority there, and there was Mandela to guarantee that harm will not befall them if they yield. Nothing at all like the current situation in Israel, basically, although people think that if you say "apartheid" enough, the political situation will magically become the same. It's not the same because Israeli Jews are in a significantly more comfortable position than Afrikaners ever were. That doesn't mean it's not apartheid, it just means that ending apartheid won't result in a hugely dominant demographic with a justified grudge.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Finally, on an ideological level, the whole point of setting up Israel was for Jews to live somewhere as a majority, rather than at the sufferance of anyone. A situation closer to 50-50 is nothing like that. I understand that this isn't something you're personally arguing, but if that was really the point of Israel, they wouldn't have put it in a densely populated Middle Eastern region.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:47
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My Imaginary GF posted:It's no apartheid. Okay, so Israel is "manifesting destiny" on the native population, which is totally different from ethnic cleansing for reasons I'm sure you'll insist are there but never state. Even if we assume "you should just convert religiously and you can be a citizen! It's as easy as that!" is actual sincere advice, and we assume that is a completely fair prerequisite for being treated like a human being, is that even legally possible for a Palestinian? How would an orphan in Gaza get in touch with the proper authorities? Would a convert get their "arab" passport replaced with a "Jew" passport? Could a West Bank Palestinian convert to Haredi Judaism and get government funding to build a Jewish house on top of his demolished Muslim house?
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Feb 12, 2015 20:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:Isn't it time for Jews to come to a safe, eternal home, one where they can count on their government to take proactive measures to disincentivize terror? Terrorism doesn't disincentivize terrorism, you dumb motherfucker. Also, you just said that terrorism as a proactive measure against terrorism is a good thing, and I realize that there are policy makers out there who unironically agree with that. gently caress.
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Feb 16, 2015 16:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:You don't need somewhere you can trust to be eternally friendly to Jewish migrants, until you do. Its not that anywhere else will necessarily persecute Jews eventually, its that Israel never will turn its back on accepting Jews who are persecuted when there is nowhere else to turn. Israel practiced state-enforced eugenics on Jews.
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Feb 17, 2015 21:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:It isn't. Where did all the Germans of Eastern Europe go in the face of the advancing soviets? Where did the millions of Portuguese, Anglos, Belgians, and others go when African states began to obtain independence? They went back to their sociolinguistic homeland. Why are Jews the only group which doesn't get its very own eternal sanctuary? Uhhhh Let me just get this straight: everyone else had to go back wherever their ancestors came from once colonized nations started fighting for their independence. Therefore the natives of the colonial nation of Israel should just gently caress off to Jordan or wherever so the colonists can have a place to call their own? Are you literally arguing this?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:34
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If Israel was intended to be a safe haven for Jewish people, why did they place it in the middle of a densely populated Muslim region? Why does the government insist on committing several crimes against humanity against its non-Jewish residents/neighbors, radicalizing them and causing a ton of tension? Why are certain denominations of Judaism significantly less welcome? And why were certain Jews forcefully sterilized as a condition of entry?
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Feb 17, 2015 21:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:My reading on Israeli politics is that Israelis are not opposed to power-sharing with muslims I... I don't think you need to post in this thread ever again. Someone please put this in the OP so we can point it out the next time someone responds to MIGF.
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Feb 17, 2015 22:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Israel's bad enough as it is. Fair enough that it's based on faulty sources, but I'm not sure I get your point. Either way, Ethiopian Jews are considered to be second class citizens in Israel, treated as poorly as Arab Israelis, even though Israel is ostensibly the sanctuary of the Jewish people?
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Feb 17, 2015 23:58
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The Insect Court posted:Oh, I see. They aren't "to blame" but they are responsible. Just like a rape victim isn't "to blame" for her victimization but that short skirt of hers didn't help, is that it? Hmm, it's almost like you refuse to ever distinguish between "the Jews" and Israel. Who's to blame for the time "the Jews" dropped white phosphorous on civilians? What should be done to prevent "the Jews" from actively participating in ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity?
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Feb 19, 2015 00:25
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OwlFancier posted:Though I gather Israel would disagree with you on that point, surprisingly. Does criticizing ISIS make me an irredeemable Islamophobe?
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Feb 19, 2015 03:48
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Maybe I'm just not picking up on it, but I see way more bitching about anti-Semitism on these forums than I do actual anti-Semitism.
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Mar 5, 2015 12:09
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Ytlaya posted:I think that the Israeli posters (emanresu tnuocca and Absurd Alhazred I think, though I know Absurd Alhazred said he no longer lives in Israel) might be conditioned on some level towards being really defensive and sensitive towards perceived antisemitism in strong criticism of Israel. Like, I think to most posters in this thread "anti-Israel" does not imply "eliminate the country of Israel" or imply antisemitic sentiment, and there have been only two or three posters in this thread that seem remotely antisemitic. It's possible that their experience living and/or growing up as an Israeli has influenced them towards perceiving antisemitism where it doesn't necessarily exist. As an American Jew, I haven't gotten any antisemitic vibes from any of the posts in this thread except for a couple posters that haven't been present in the thread for some time (and even then it's not really explicit). I think it's worth noting that Israel is in the Middle East where anti-Semitism tends further towards "devil-worshipping baby eater" than it does "hook-nosed greedy banker," and the distinction between "Israel" and "the Jews" is not considered particularly relevant.
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Mar 5, 2015 23:30
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How exactly is Israel getting away with literally just taking the PA's funding? I'm assuming it's a less than legal maneuver. Couldn't the UN or ICC or something force them to fork it over?
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Mar 6, 2015 10:02
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Is the premise that if modern Jews were Jews or Israelites or whatever the correct heritage is, they'd then be entitled to the land of Israel? I doubt anyone in this thread genuinely cares who modern Jews descended from.
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Mar 7, 2015 13:33
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420 Gank Mid posted:Do you think the reason Italians aren't pressing for their 208 CE borders is because they aren't the 'legitimate' ethnic heirs to the Romans? I'm saying you could be a direct descendant of Charlemagne, Kublai Khan, Huitzilihuitl and Shaka Zulu, and it still wouldn't justify colonialism. I don't think any poster in this thread would genuinely argue that Jews have a divine right to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and would suddenly be deflated if it could be proven that most of of Jewish Israel didn't have ancestors who wandered the desert with Moses.
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Mar 8, 2015 04:25
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Zero_Grade posted:Despite the completely horrible election results, the chaotic Israeli parliamentary system is pretty exciting to follow. What's the fun of two parties when you could have intrigue, bargains, alliances, and backstabbing between a dozen of them! At least the Israeli left actually has parties they can vote for? I'd choose that over the US system of "Right wing corporatists or Republicans" any day.
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Mar 18, 2015 02:21
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AcidRonin posted:Uhm my hebrew aint what it used to be but is this article I'm reading seriously saying that Bibi LITERALLY 'accused' the oppositiin of "carting in arabs" to vote down "real Israelis"? I am probobly late to the show with this but how is this not blatant proof of racial issues here? It's not like we haven't seen similar rhetoric in the US, which isn't even a nation founded on ideas of racial/ethnoreligious supremacy.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:02
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Main Paineframe posted:He's giving Netanyahu an "out", giving him room to change his position without looking like he's backing down or giving in. It's quite a good move when dealing with a right-winger like Netanyahu who's built his image around looking like a tough guy, actually - pressuring him directly on the claim might force him to double down on it to avoid looking weak, but a vague "oh gosh I hope he didn't really say that" response gives Netanyahu room to pivot to something less extreme. Normally I'd say it's kind of a naive move, but after a strong election performance like that, Netanyahu can absolutely afford to throw Abbas that bone without fearing domestic retribution or a far-right flare-up. Yeah, but will that make Netanyahu actually work towards a two-state solution? What benefit is there to going back to false pretenses over dealing with Bibi's actual intentions toward Palestine otherwise?
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Mar 19, 2015 20:56
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SNAKES N CAKES posted:Not particularly surprising, but it should help combat the notion that right wing voters are stupid or misinformed. Stupid and misinformed is a lot more generous than the alternative.
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Mar 22, 2015 02:38
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"My actions as prime minister should prove that I'm not racist." - the head of an apartheid government and proponent of ethnic cleansing "I think, similarly, that no element outside the state of Israel should intervene in our democratic processes." - the man who openly campaigned for Mitt Romney and held an election speech in a foreign nation at the behest of the Republican party
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Mar 24, 2015 02:16
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hakimashou posted:I don't think it's that Europeans like the Palestinians, I think it's that they don't like Israel because of who Israelis are. Brushing right over the troll, there is something I have been wondering about : who exactly are these demographics who are anti-Semitic but not Islamophobic? I'm pretty sure neo-nazis and garden variety racists are more than happy to let them be shipped off to a crusader state where they get to war with muslims on all sides.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:24
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"Standing in SS uniform, manning a watchtower in the Warsaw ghetto" Germany has a right to exist! *Raping civilians in Paris" Were the sanctions and war reparations, in retrospect, really worth it? hakimashou posted:Since those rocket attacks ended, how often has Gaza City been bombed? Those rocket attacks were in response to IDF airstrikes, so... Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 05:29
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