The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

I am kind of confused about all the hand wringing about this Mcintosh guy, the dude has been talking about the new Batman game and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he has to say about it. Batman is a downright rear end in a top hat in that game and it's either me growing up or just oversaturated with Batman stuff, but I find the character of Batman boring as hell.

I said come in! posted:

It's just that the entire point of FemFrequency is that it is about women in entertainment.

I really don't see how this helps your argument.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 21:57

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 02:10

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

I said come in! posted:

Are you really not able to see how a man writing the script for a video series about women, is kinda stupid?

No, one of the biggest historians on slavery (Ira Berlin) is a white guy. I don't see how that affects what Anita has to say. I mean, Anita can still choose to say what she wants in the end.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

pretty much this. have someone like laura K fight sexism in gaming. at least she likes video games, is interesting to listen and doesn't have a victim complex a mile wide.

When you get death threats, you no longer really have a victim complex, you are actually a victim. Also, I don't know why people think she doesn't like video games, and even then try to use it to discredit people. You don't have to be a slave to understand the legacy that came from it.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:04

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

By the way, I have been meaning to check out that new GTFO movie, has anyone seen it yet?

Shadoer posted:

Yeah i have to agree. The biggest point against McIntosh is that on twitter he's a raving lunatic, not that he's a white man writing parts of Anita's blog.

I have only recently started following the guy on twitter, as I said before, his latest stuff is about how Batman is a male power fantasy that tortures people throughout the games. I wouldn't really call that lunacy considering I agree with him on that point.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:09

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

XMNN posted:

It's not exactly an original reading of the subtext though. Like it's pretty much the text at this point.

Before that he was throwing a shitfit about Lara Croft climbing a mountain unsafely because it glorified people taking risks. Like I can sort of see where he's coming from on the "lots of games are excessively violent" front (though I think that's a good thing) but he's pretty much a wet towel made flesh.

Some people are pretty blind to text as it stands. I pretty much saw tons of people attacking him for having such a benign opinion.

But as for my opinion on the whole thing, I will be glad to get some more protagonists that aren't white males and I really don't understand why they don't try to branch out a bit. I mean, Resident Evil as a franchise is teeming with characters and they are all white people with the exception of Sheva and Ada. Basically, why can't more games be like Beyond Good and Evil when it comes to diversifying?

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:16

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

INH5 posted:

People think Anita doesn't like video games because there is a video of her from 2010 in which she says that she doesn't like video games. Of course, she claims to have changed her mind since then, but you can't really blame people for wondering after seeing that.

I'm guessing this is that video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI

I am really not seeing a problem with what she is saying. In fact, the indie scene has grown quite a bit since then and there are hordes of new gamers out there. But thank you for informing me about it. I hadn't known that.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:20

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Dapper_Swindler posted:

as i said before, He writes all or most of her arguments. She just makes them palatible. Hell she even thanks him for his help in her thesis work. She will never throw him out. I think their should be feminist critics of games, its just they are poo poo at it.

I think their critiques are ok, if not a little basic.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:34

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Control Volume posted:

I got halfway through writing a serious post about The Gamergate, realized with horror what I was doing, and quickly erased it to replace it with this text. This thread is dangerous, and should be destroyed.

I honestly think it is quite interesting in the ways some people come up with ways to attempt discredit the people who are criticizing their specific media platform, straight down to calls for conservatism (This is the way things always have been).

I wouldn't mind historians looking back on the whole incident in some years time.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 22:54

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Scrub-Niggurath posted:

Lmfao 40 pages in under 12 hours what the gently caress is wrong with you people

It's a hot topic in a subject that people are interested in and passionate about.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 23:26

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Wulfolme posted:

It's two sides in a pitched battle desperately searching for a channel to call each other stupid.

Also Gamergate has kind of been the match to a few sticks worth of culture war dynamite. This poo poo ain't settlin' for a while. poo poo, I ain't even here to bitch about video games. I just want to watch guys like Effectronica get yelled at.

While I do think that both sides are just yelling in the wind about a lot of stuff. I do think there is actual stuff happening with regards to the industry. More female gamers are definitely making themselves more known and I think the industry is kind of reconfiguring itself at this point in time with a lot of games that are unconventional being made. Then on the other side, you have a million survival crafting games.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 23:36

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

The argument is more that they don't want games to be graded based on how leftist they are,. Witcher 3 is great but has no black people and shows bad things happening to women ? How problematic, this is a super important thing I must bring up in my review for everyone to care about.

It's a critique that Witcher 3 has mostly white people and the few people of color in the game. A review is an opinion and if the review think that opinion is important enough to place in the review then they have the power to do that. I really don't understand this push for games to be graded only on their "merits" as if the actual writing and characterization aren't part of the merits.

Al Cowens posted:

All. And don't loving call us "of color"

I don't know of any feminists that want to murder me and I am a black guy, so maybe it's just a select few.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 20:36

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

So you're saying we should treat the Roma community like a puppy with PTSD, it may not trust us, bite our hand, and aggressively piss on our carpet but other people were really loving nasty to it so it's understandable. I choose to treat them as people instead. This aggressive infantilization and treating minority groups like they're mentally impaired victims with no agency is a huge failing of identity politics.

What do the Roma have to do with Gamergate?

Totalizator posted:

Censorship of content by a private company is also censorship. Of course it is at the same time free speech - they should not be forced to INCLUDE things in their app store that they don't want to carry. The criticism was entirely "they banned historical games, which is a stupid and hamfisted move" once the games were reinstated GG declared a victory and returned to having a slapfight over that batman joke or whatever. Nobody complained any racist confederate flag games, if there were even any, remained banned.

It is a completely empty criticism for the most part since many times companies self censor in order to achieve more sales. Manhunt 2 wouldn't have likely come out at all if they didn't censor it for a mature rating. Movies choose to go for a PG-13 rating in order to receive more sales.

The end-game seems to be Gamergate getting pissy for companies choosing to self-censor their games in order to achieve more sales.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 21:02

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

This is a Fantastic Post.

There are three universal truths to Gamergate at this point:

1. Twitter makes you really dumb
2. Twitter is the worst possible venue for debate or discussion
3. Gamers and their arch nemeses are really bad at PR

I disagree with 1 because twitter has Ta-nehisi Coates and he says some pretty insightful things. 2 is true, which is why I don't bother responding to anyone on Twitter. 3 is also correct.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:04

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

I did. Multiple times.

Totalizator posted:

I'm using the other definition (from merriam-webster) "one who practices or preaches a more rigorous or professedly purer moral code than that which prevails"

Holy poo poo, this is some horse poo poo. It sounds like another word for SJW which basically means "politically correct"

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:11

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Broniki posted:

Fixating on identity politics, cliques and basically anything except video games is the status quo yes, and desperately clinging to that while the disenfranchised consumer tells you they've had enough is what puts you firmly in the "reactionary" camp.

No, it's not. Anita Sarkeesian wouldn't have gotten nearly the amount of backlash that she got if that was the status quo. In fact, what we are seeing is a group of people reacting harshly to the fact that more and more women are getting into gaming and have the nerve to ask for better representation in games.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:14

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

Nobody wants to keep opposing ideologies out of games. People don't want ideologies injected INTO games to appease "critics" who don't buy and hate games and gamers.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Ideologies aren't injected into games, games are usually developed around ideologies. Hideo Kojima most likely didn't include all that poo poo about Nuclear Proliferation into the original MGS at the last minute.

In fact, what many people want is a paradigm shift where we start including diversity from the ground floor instead of including minority characters as "tokenism"

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:23

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

That isn't Feminist, so it's completely natural and thus not objectionable.

Oh, my mistake. George Miller didn't include all those women in Fury Road at the last minute. Am I doing it right, now?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:25

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

I'd like to focus on "better representation" for a sec. Anita's series has mostly been about the negative tropes and stereotypes cast on lady characters in games. She's had two displaying "positive" female characters, one of which was a pixelated thing with no defining traits or personality, and the other being Jade from BG&E.

I'm not sure what game devs can take away from the latter, and the former has basically rendered any character larger than a B cup as sexual fodder for misogynists. How can they improve representation when mostly every defining trait is a trope?

To clarify, here are the stereotypes:

I could have sworn that Anita really liked the Faith character from Mirror's Edge and also Chell from Portal despite her being a silent protagonist.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:42

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

VJeff posted:

I remember they brought on a dude specifically to write characters and scenarios with a feminist progressive mindset in mind and he did, but because the female character needed to be helped out of some trouble once, Damsel in Distress trope, game's bad, gently caress you.

Actually, I think she criticized the game for depending on that stupid trope in the first place considering the character that gets captured and held hostage for you to save her was far more competent than your character in the first place.

Also, it is important to note that she wasn't even referring to the character as a damsel in distress, but the actual plot device.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:46

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

I think those are going to be in her other positive character videos. Also I don't really know why Chell is on that list since she has no personality and is basically a blank slate with the "right" character model.

She is somewhat of a blank slate, but I think it is overall because of how the actual game treats her as a character. There is no belittling of her gender or sexuality. I mean, if people can characterize Gordon Freeman, I see no reason why people can't characterize Chell based on context.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:48

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

Zombie games aren't really all that good at the whole "story" thing.

This is true, but I don't see how that detracts from her point.

VJeff posted:

God, the way it just swerves into "FRIDGE STUFFING" pisses me off.

Female character dies at any point? It's literally the same as when Hal Jordan's wife got jammed into the fridge for no loving reason.
Female character experiences hardship at any point and needs help to get out of it? Damsel in distress! It's basically the same as Bowser jacking Peach at the start of every Mario game.

Removing context from everything leads to some really loving boring stories.

The whole reason Jade is kidnapped is simply to serve as fuel for you to hate Rais even more. It really could have been avoided completely and not changed the story at all.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:54

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

Thats also because every other character is a literal robot. I think she said something about Catwoman getting insulted by thugs in Arkham City and using words like "bitch" and sexualized slurs were terrible and unnecessary.

Except, she is right? Even goons in the Arkham City thread noted almost every taunt from the thugs were about how they wanted to rape her.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 22:56

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

Immersion type games should always use body sliders. It's just weird to me that Chell and the pixel thing from Sword and Sworcery are considered progressive positive examples when their defining traits are "has no defining traits other than character model." You didn't even know Chell's name or that she was a girl until the first game was almost over.

I guess I can see where it comes from. When all of your games are of white men doing stuff with minorities relegated to stereotypes, it becomes refreshing when you actually get a game with a main protagonist that is a minority and isn't a stereotype.

I think that is partially why I like Freedom Cry so much. Identity tends to be very important. I mean look at all the people flipping their poo poo about Peter Parker being replaced as Spider man and Michael Jordan playing as the Human torch.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:01

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

Bad people in a video game say bad things to a character!? Sound the oppression alarm!!!

Yet, they say none of those things to Batman or Robin. Just because you can find some in universe way of forgiving it doesn't mean it isn't boneheadingly stupid. I mean, why can't it just be about them beating the poo poo out of Catwoman like it is for them?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:05

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

Games are for everyone already. If a woman picks up a controller it's not going to electrocute her then display a message telling her to get back into the kitchen.

This is pretty drat close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLDgPbjp0M

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:10

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Bholder posted:

We need to open people's eyes about how sexism exists.

Wait, there's a video game where sexism is portrayed by negative characters?! WE CANNOT HAVE THAT!

Wait, there is a game where sexism is propagated by the developers because they want to constantly remind you that Catwoman is a female?

I mean why does being a female have to go straight to rape?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:14

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

So it's not a problem of diversity in characters but rather a problem of diversity in villains. I applaud and agree with the stance there should be more bisexual and gay villains in games but this run the risk of people complaining about gay people being portrayed as evil (and in this case, evil rapists)

Then how about just not making the sexualized taunts at all? It wouldn't be that difficult and removing them doesn't make the game worse.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:19

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

Thats kinda how I see it. It'd be like complaining about facehuggers sticking their literal dicks in your mouth.

Because this is loving stupid. You will notice how most games don't promote rape of a female as a way for you to get back the main character even if they are evil. I mean should antagonists start calling black characters the N-word simply because they are black?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:23

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

Removing sexualized stuff from games is not a solution because now you're saying "this aspect of human psyche is bad, why portray it at all". This is the social justice stance - don't portray problematic things so people cannot commit thoughtcrimes. I could go and dig up some twitter quotes of people seriously backing this stance but I've been arguing about twitter poo poo for like six hours now so I'll leave it to you if you're interested.

No one argued for removing sexualized stuff from games in this thread, people are arguing for removing that particular thing. But I mean if people are going to appeal to realism and poo poo, why can't they appeal to you know actually having game worlds that actually mirror real life demographics?

So many white male protagonists in video games despite minorities making up a considerable part of the population? Why does it seem that Gamergaters are fine with realism until it starts going against the status quo?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:33

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

It's a loving great game and everyone should play it

Though if that's the deal, more purposefully sexist games would be better received? Do we need more Grindhouse games?

But, the whole point is that the Alien or the facehuggers don't give a gently caress about what gender you are. The game (which cribs heavily from the movie) handles its tone in an entirely different way.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:38

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

Here's an excercise: try to find gamergaters complaining about a woman or minority protagonist in a game, instead of a white male. Ideally have it be in a long conversation where other gamergaters join in with support and not a lone and forgotten tweet by some nut, but I'll be generous and take those too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2yt8hk/forcing_diversity_gamergate/

Oh no! Racial quotas in games!

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 23:51

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Totalizator posted:

He's complaining about tokenism, try again.

This is pretty rich considering the #Notyourshield hashtag.

Basically what we are getting now is the status quo where no one want to do a drat thing because they are afraid of "tokenism".

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 00:11

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

poptart_fairy posted:

Male only, but the game cracked a number of jokes based on your skin tone.

I remember the issue of "reskinned white people" coming up in the minorities thread when discussing straight replacements for the bald white dude as a generic protagonist. How would you go that route without resorting to tokenism?

Ask Lightbox Interactive, they made Emmett Graves. I mean holy poo poo, just make a strong character without stereotypes. I mean Jade from Beyond Good and Evil is a great character.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 00:26

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

poptart_fairy posted:

How were they minority characters without simply being reskinned white people is what I'm asking though, as that seems to be a fairly common criticism I see whenever examples of minority leads get brought up in the first place.

How is Sheva a minority character other than basically being a reskinned Jill Valentine in all but origins only? I thought she was an ok character.

I mean we aren't THAT different to white people. Yeah we have different experiences that color our opinions but its not like we are some alien race that only listens to hip-hop.

InsanityIsCrazy posted:

On the other hand, if said deviation is not written / displayed "well enough," the devs will be the first against the twitter wall.

There was a picture of someone comparing Guybrush Threepwood to a gendered opposite, Galbrush, that laid out some of the finer points. I'll see if I can find it.

Nobody held Jade for not being "Latina" enough.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 00:42

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

poptart_fairy posted:

Well Sheva was born and raised in the area the game is set and still got complained at for not being black enough.

It kind of reminds me of the Nina Simone biopic and Zoe Saldana. I honestly think she could be darker myself but I think she is a solid character.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 02:52

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

VJeff posted:

Uhhhh. Why?

Colorism is a thing.

Sheva is one of the lightest people in that region. Not that big of a deal but it would have been nice since we don't get too many dark female characters in games.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 05:14

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Dapper_Swindler posted:

Yeah the video is dumb and shouldnt be used as arguments against her. I think her and josh anti-violence spieling and weird patenalistic mother hen stuff hurts their image more then GG ever could.

But does it really? People keep saying that this stuff is hurting Anita's image yet people are still wanting to see her and listen to what she has to say. I think most people don't give a poo poo about her anti-violence stuff because they see it as more of a suggestion and not a demand.

I mean, pointing out that a lot of games shown at E3 are violent isn't that damaging. I think a lot of people prescribe more power to their words than they really have.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 21:39

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Archer666 posted:

Aside from being a feminist movie, Fury Road can also be seen as a anti-authority movie: Joe is Head of State, Bullet Farmer is the Justice System and People Eater is Big Banks.

Also nobody seems to notice a bit in Fury Road: The women were going to cross The Salt, in what was heavily implied to result in death, until a man told them what they should be doing instead. Now I don't particularly give a gently caress about feminist ideas in my movies, but that kinda stands out.

But returning to Gamergate. It's sad that the Zoe Quinn stuff was the Franz Ferdinant situation for the whole movement. People've been unhappy for ages regarding games journalism(as insignificant as it may be) and I think that if something else would have kicked it off, the whole thing would have gone a little bit better than its currently doing. But that could also just be me being naive and thinking people are better than they actually are.

Well, I think that is more of an argument for equality of the sexes rather than anything that goes against feminism. There are things that Furiosa is better at than Max and vice versa.

As for the games journalism thing, I don't feel too bad. A lot of these companies have repeatedly lied to people and consumers keep eating that poo poo up. How else can you explain those people who bitch because a game they want to like got an 8.8 or a game they haven't played got a 7. It's as if some of these people don't really want to think critically or apply themselves, but rather they just want their own views confirmed.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 21:49

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 02:10

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Cyron posted:

it's pretty mush what gaming reviews are for a long time, it's less about how the game play and more about Waving your E-dick on that your console of choice is the best.

But sometimes I don't think that is true. I mean I really enjoyed the Gamespot review on Arkham Knight and I thought that the 8.8 review of Twilight Princess was well written. I usually go to Eurogamer for a lot of my reviews as well because they are pretty critical. But the reaction to being critical about AAA titles is usually, "The reviewer doesn't know how to play!" or some poo poo like that.

I enjoyed Alien:Isolation, but I think that 78-80 on Metacritic is well deserved because there are a lot of weird things that go on with the AI and I think that for a stealth game, the options are pretty limited and some are even counter-intuitive. But people simply work themselves up because we are all meant to buy the next best thing.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 21:57

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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