kikkelivelho posted:

I was about to ask this too. Won't the refugees just go back to Germany? Or are we just going to lock them up in secured apartments to make sure they stick?

Also how does the distribution work? why does refugee A get to go to Germany but refugee B has to go to some Eastern country?

Aumanor posted:

Ever considered that this might suggest a problem with the immigrants and not with France?

Al-Saqr posted:

Reposting this from another thread, European Enlightenment in action, folks. .



Polish anti-immigration protest. Evidently it says something like, "Islamic pigs, we are waiting for you and will cut your heads off."


Cant have those backwards people in Europe. no sireee.

FINGERBLASTER69 posted:

Are you suggesting that countries should let in Al Qaeda and Al Nusra members? What the gently caress

FINGERBLASTER69 posted:

So by that logic regime figures from oppressive regimes should be let in as well because hey, they chose a side in a civil war! Just because they picked a bad side and executed/tortured people doesn't make them bad guys! And war criminals should not be accepted as the price of letting people flood in. I can't believe some of the things that I'm reading in this thread. "Taking in war criminals is the cost of saving lives" holy poo poo.

quote:

"What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured.”

Narciss posted:

That's from Conan the Barbarian you poseur.

Riso posted:

I have a crazy idea!

How about Saudi Arabia takes three million Syrian refugees and houses them in their air-conditioned and teflon coated fibre glass tents after the Hajj is over?

Riso posted:

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/fluechtlinge-integration-101.html

Andrea Nahles "The Syrian physician is not the normal case."

15-20% complete illiterates, 2/3 unfinished job education, 13% higher education, 45% moochers on welfare.

Geriatric Pirate posted:

For a refugee escaping a war zone, you'd think any safe country would be satisfactory.

VitalSigns posted:

It's just this weird doublethink. We have to limit the number of refugees because advanced industrial economies can't feed and house very many people, but if you do limit the number of refugees then it's all worthless we shouldn't even bother letting in any then.

It's almost as if the only acceptable number of Arabs to have in your country is zero

Arglebargle III posted:

I think Europe should do more to settle asylum-seekers, but also be more organized and cooperative about how they are accepted so that asylum-seekers are settled on Europe's terms and not by barging through hastily-constructed checkpoints. Angela Merkel has expressed the same view.

Surely someone will find this insane and racist?

Ligur posted:

Seriously, what is it with you guys and Muslims?

It takes two posts at most about something else for you return talking about how other people supposedly view Muslims. And racism.

The people swarming in and outside of Europe could be tinted green and believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster and we'd still be in a loving mess and Macedonian and Hungarian police would tear gas them.

Couldn't you take that Muslims stuff to the Middle-East or whatever thread instead and talk about the refugee crisis here?

Ligur posted:

So are you saying that we should get to choose which European country we live in if we get, I don't know, unemployed or in problems with the police or something, and we are entitled to all benefits related to living there, or what.

SaltyJesus posted:

You are the one who is essentially trying to boil everything down to money. Why would a chauvinist joke even need a monetary reparation? Maybe the offended party would be satisfied with getting to poo poo on the offender's lawn, or telling a chauvinist joke back, or the offender having to wear humiliating jorts around town for a day. Why would you insist on monetary reparation which would either be insultingly low if you wanted to equate it to your intuitive feeling of scale or insanely high if you wanted to put it on some kind of par with genocide.

Ligur posted:

Mordekai posted:

That was not what I wrote. I answered this quote.


Here you imply that the migrant come as families, and that preferrably giving asylum to women and children will break up these families. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

And you are really quick to attack people who correct you btw.

Ligur posted:

Sigh. People have been venturing very close to the reasons all thread. I did in my post in reply to you.

That said, the average Swede or Finn or Austrian cannot be held responsible for the asylum seekers either. This needs to be an EU process everyone signs, or then it's each country on it's own. Not this weird hassle of hordes staggering from one country to the next until even that last one closed the borders because the amounts are impossible to cope with.

Sweden is opening 6 to 8 refugee centers a day right now, that would be up to new centers 2900 a year if this keeps up - and it will keep up unless EU together or individual countries by themselves make dramatic policy changes.

This sure as hell isn't just some weird "lol throw rocks at othar people" thing, it's just that European countries can't cope with the load right now and that won't go away and it won't be solved by people making accusations or hinting at racism or some other sentimental bullshit. It's really weird how half of D&D posters want to make just about everything a race or prejudice issue, forget the real life problems we are facing like "where does the infra come from?" but instead take great pleasure on talking of fascism and buying nazi avatars. This thread is a good example of just about nobody giving any ideas apart from "lol we can easily fit everyone into europe" or "but you only make that and that argument because hmmm, perhaps you are... racist".

In another view, I know some posters think Europe has a well night unlimited ability to cope with new migrants without dramatic changes to public spending, taxing and sooner or later serious employment and further down the line cultural problems, but what is going on right now is that we should build completely new cities every quarter or annually (if someone suggests "hey let the asylum seekers build those" - actually a good idea, but if you are at all familiar with the bureaucracies around, also quite impossible).


Many West European countries are planned to the tune of zero to no population growth, for example. They are not prepared for hundreds of thousands of new arrivals year in year out. From vastly different cultures to boot, with often no language or skills useful locally and to the nth time, no jobs even for their own citizens. This leaves us to the point we have only tent villages to offer very soon. And the people who are coming over were sold nice apartments in the big cities of Scandinavia, a new car, a job. They won't be happy. That's just how it is. Anyone can reduce all of this to some sort of "lol the racists" and "aaagh the right-wingg" argument but that is burying your head and half your torso in the sand.

Ligur posted:

Wow, an actual reply, in this thread I've been fed numbers like this since early summer instead, which I why I thought Germany is doing something quite irregular as in closing borders. But let's say only 50k end up staying -> the families will follow. Still a piece of cake.

Ligur posted:

Agreed that is probably something which a powerhouse like Germany can handle. It sounds like Germany refuses a vast majority of asylum seekers a residence permit and send them off, do you have any statistics available? As a Finn that sounds quite amazing, we gave a residence permit to 45% in 2014 even though only some 15% were given asylum. I suspect Germany might receive bunch of internal (EU) refugees.

Ligur posted:

That housing thing? It's actually a problem in the Nordics. For example the large Swedish and Finnish cities where most asylum seekers end up sooner or later when and if they receive a permit have chronic housing issues. The countryside is getting a little empty with nice little row houses standing empty but nobody wants to live there. We're seriously hosed if Sweden starts sending 15-30k people a year over here. And Sweden? They are so terminally ill of housing prices have skyrocketed, I keep hearing young adults have to live with their parents like if it was Spain, are turning everything with a roof left to a center, and they are considering building a new barrack village just for asylum seekers. What will they do in 2016? Build 10 new barrack villages? After the people have been processed, where will those who stay be housed?

My worry is that 2015 is not some kind of temporary spike. If Syria dwindles, new internal conflicts will blow out close to Europe and Sub-Saharan Africa certainly will never run out of asylum seekers i.e. the situation is turning chronic, and I'm afraid that unless EU introduces policy changes it's going to be this in 2016, 2017 and so on.

If this blows out and everything turns to how it was between, say 2004 to 2011 I'll shut up about the whole thing.

Ligur posted:

Finland, the economic powerhouse that smashes even Germany. I don't know what to say. This is so bizarre. I couldn't find a single list that ranks Finland over Germany though. Anyway it's a bit of a myth that countries like Finland are super wealthy, which is an attitude adopted from the 70s and 80s, we're certainly not. Our salaries are low, our taxes are either 1st, 2nd or 3rd highest in the world depending on who counts, our cost of living is in the top 10 of the world year in year out, we're in an a 8 year recession with no growth in sight, we have 400 000+ unemployed, a stifling bureaucracy that chases entrepreneurs and well employed young adults out of the country, and we must constantly take more debt to run our public sector while being forced to cut on stuff like "education" and "health-care". This is not some utopian paradise where money grows in trees: the truth is, we're in poo poo.

Sorry, the average Finns is probably more "like me" than you think, muahahahah. What do you think I'm like, then, that you're so worried? I'm fine with refugees not coming here though.

steinrokkan posted:

Just pass a mandate that every refugee to Finland must buy a Nokia phone as soon as he makes enough money to afford it.

That will either help you economically, or, more likely, divert the refugees to a less draconian country.

Ligur posted:

Hahaha, do you live here, what the gently caress are you talking about? Apart from nominal GDP (everything of which is spent to an extent we have to take loans we can't probably pay back, ever), the education is good but worth poo poo when talking about non-OECD immigrants as they still do not get educated, we do not have much in the way of career opportunities as you should know at this point, our public health-care has turned into poo poo in a matter of two decades, crime and mortality are low but that doesn't mean we can support an unlimited flow of Somalians or Iraqis as it has nothing to do with it, our society is so far from flexible or forward thinking: you need to find some economically mired East-European former Soviet satellite to find a comparison and so on.

edit: holy hell, he's talking about the same dream land the human smugglers sold to the asylum seekers, the land of bounty where everyone gets a job, a car, an apartment and a lot of money by just being here, you should go preach your message to the hundreds of thousands of unemployed, pensioners and students living below the poverty line and eating potato peels, I'm sure they'd appreciate you insulting them

Ligur posted:

Our work is done soon, here.

Ligur posted:

So the whole stuff is made up, just to make asylum seekers look bad. Is that what you are saying?



Also do you read and take at face value what Migrant Tales posts

Ligur posted:

The new name for the thread should be Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of poisonous salmon soup


The claim isn't that extraordinary. Several newspapers have reported about the food protesting. This kind of thing is almost regular in Swedish local news, not extraordinary. Care to mention some of the bullshit stories though?


Think for a moment. I made one short post about asylum seekers protesting about food and causing police work with other activities. I thought that would be the start and end of it. But it wasn't. People freaked out, that can't be!

So I provided links. One had a short sidenote about salmon soup. People took the salmon soup, lactose poisoning at face value, and repeatedly posted about it here, even though it was mentioned only in passing in one tabloid rag paper, and the soup was not even directly related to the protesting that took place. Nevermind all that, several people immediately dismissed the whole thing as reasonable protesting against poison soup, with no other sources available. And all felt well about themselves.

Yet, when it came up that the protesters were served beef and rice and not soup when a reporter went to find out, instead of taking that at face value as well, posters screamed in pain, demanded more sources, suspect the source is lying, try to find moral justification to the protesting soup or not, require multiple credible sources instead of tabloid rags (which were fine as sources before in this case), one even started scouring conspiracy sites to somehow just make it not so, and finally you come here to tell me how to read news properly.

See the discrepancy?

awesome-express posted:

*world's tiniest violin starts playing*

Most of the the developing world would not make up the majority of the planet's population if they didn't have such a comparatively high child per family figure when compared to the developed parts of the world.

Basically you're saying most people live in poo poo. Yeah, that would not be the case if contraception was actually an embraced concept. Closely followed by not letting religion control your lives.

awesome-express posted:

Not really. But they are partly responsible. You would have to be a fool to think they have 0 impact on their predicament.

rudatron posted:

To be honest, I'm kind of speechless. If only such arrogant selfishness expressed itself visibly on the face, so that others could treat you with the same callousness you express. Until then, you're just a parasite.

Ligur posted:

I can imagine posters find it difficult to believe people complain about frigging free food, but what can I say. These dudes traveling between Sweden and Finland are not the most wretched or desperate, if they could buy their way here they are probably what goes as the middle or upper class from where they came.

After that, guyz, think about what they expected for a bit? As has been discussed in this thread (you can look up my post history to find out more and links) and all over the media the past weeks, these young Iraqi men came here with promises from both human smugglers and the social media of your own house, a regular cash injection in benefits every month which dwarfs what you can make in a month working in Iraq, and what's best plenty of jobs and companies screaming for more able hands. Soon you can buy a car and live in luxury.

Those who are single have even been marketed with Scandinavian girls to boot (I know someone is thinking about a "lol they taek our women" reply, no need to smash the reply button though, I know they won't steal our women, it's just a thing that smuggler networks use "single Nordic women" as one of their marketing tools to cash on people).

So what does actual reality look like?

You are shoved into a bus by police and guys in military uniforms soon after the border, and escorted to a general processing center for a week or two. After the initial interviews, you are taken to a reception center which is most likely an old school or barracks where you sleep with 4 or 8 other guys in the same room on bunks or mattresses. Some people even end up in tents right now. The reception center is most likely in the middle of nowhere, probably a forest, the winter is coming, and next, you hear that processing your asylum application is halted for the near future, and when the processing re-boots you have to wait for 6 months or a year if not more for the result. Meanwhile, you receive some pocket money to the tune of 10€ a day and are not even allowed to look for a job, not that you could find one, because you don't speak Finnish, Swedish or fluent English. And there are no jobs.

Now, what was promised and what the reality looks like do not match very well. Because the average 25 year old Iraqi man probably knows nothing else about Finland than what social media and the smuggler sold him, he might even think we're treating them like this out of malice, how on earth could they know our resources are stretched to the utmost limit right now and we simply can't offer more. You bet a bunk, rice and weak sauce isn't what they expected.

I can imagine being pissed and protesting, too.


When some piece of news is reported on several large papers I tend not to automatically think "heh, lies!" even though it goes against my grain. That is why will take their word for it. For example here here an asylum seeker holds a plate of rice and some sort of sauce, saying it is dogfood at best. The food protests have been reported by every (that is YLE, the Finnish Public Broadcast company, a station in which the mission statement reads they "promote multiculturalism" and which is super immigration positive) major (that is Helsingin Sanomat, a liberal right-center-left paper, and not a tabloid) news site.

It would take kilometers of tinfoil to believe it's all some wicked conspiracy. To re-reiterate, somewhere in Finland some immigrants have complained about fish soup with milk at some point, but these guys are not even them and you can bet asylum seekers are mostly served something else.

What goes against the grain of your regular Finn is that the food services provide the same chow all of us ate in school, in the military, as students, in college cafeterias, what pensioners like my grandma used to eat, and so on. Also asylum seekers complaining about food and protesting has been a regular occurrence in Swede for a while now, but my head will probably not take well googling all those stories right now.


Papers twist things and especially leave out news that go against their agenda, but simply inventing demonstrations, stabbings etc. isn't part of our journalistic culture. Our reporters (and their bosses) sure do swear on some certain party line, and spin things accordingly, but making things up from thin air? No, not really. Also there's a bunch of blogs which exist only to out or debunk other blogs, social media bullshit, or actual news sites.

Faking a protest would get caught in hours.