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So isn't that just a repost of A.A's communique from the previous thread? Implying that you've decided on your own "authority" to restart the I/P thread? Just askin' questions here. Because if that's the case...quote:And here's some of my rules:
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Dec 17, 2015 09:30
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Jagchosis posted:Also eat a dick you are the single worst poster in I/P you twat. Effectronica posted:Please leave my thread you antisemitic sack of poo poo. icantfindaname posted:settle down rahm SedanChair posted:"Israelis" are aliens in Palestine. Nothing they do is legal, except packing up and leaving. Off to a great start with the new I/P thread. Aren't there like three different offsite LF refugee forums you could go post in, instead of trying to resurrect it? In actual news, Erdogan seems to be practicing a 'one in, one out' enemies list. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.692478 quote:Israel and Turkey have reached understanding on the outlines of a reconciliation agreement that would put an end to the long crisis in relations between the two countries and normalize ties.
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Dec 17, 2015 23:34
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Woolie Wool posted:W/R/T whether it's genocide or not and what genocide really is, Israel is already exterminating the Palestinians. All they have to do is continue their current policies and Gaza will be completely annihilated in 50 years. This is not mere oppression, it is Generalplan Ost in slow motion. This sort of comment helps to demonstrate just how divorced from reality the extremist anti-Zionist fringe truly is. Would you like me to project out population growth in the Gaza Strip and West Bank to show you how absurd an idea that is? Are you honestly ignorant that the Palestinian Territories have some of the highest population growth rates in the world? Gaza's last year was 2.91%, the 13th highest in the world. Does collision with reality alter your opinion whatsoever, or will you assert this is evidence that the Zionists are just sitting back and letting the Palestinian population expand so there will be more to slaughter in the future? On a related note, this seems as good a place as any to introduce Robert Wistrich's theory that one of the hallmarks of ideological 'new antisemitism' is the rhetorical equation of Zionism with Nazism. quote:Even though the current banner may be "antiracist" and the defamation is being carried out today in the name of human rights, all the red lines have clearly been crossed. For example, "anti-Zionists" who insist on comparing Zionism and the Jews with Hitler and the Third Reich appear unmistakably to be de facto anti-Semites, even if they vehemently deny the fact! This is largely because they knowingly exploit the reality that Nazism in the postwar world has become the defining metaphor of absolute evil. For if Zionists are "Nazis" and if Sharon really is Hitler, then it becomes a moral obligation to wage war against Israel. That is the bottom line of much contemporary anti-Zionism. In practice, this has become the most potent form of contemporary anti-Semitism. I admit I find the argument somewhat compelling.
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Dec 19, 2015 07:15
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Main Paineframe posted:What argument? He doesn't have one. All those words boil down to "being anti-Israel in any way means being anti-semitic, just like Osama Bin Laden and the socialists, and all that bad stuff you hear about Israel is just conspiracy theories from Islamic socialist terrorist Jew-haters". I read the whole drat thing just in case he made any points worth refuting, and I was shocked at just how devoid of substance it is. Total waste of my time. Is it ever physically painful being so wrong? Please explain to us how you can read the following and transform it into "being anti-Israel in any way means anti-semitic, just like Osama Bin Laden". http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-wistrich-f04.htm quote:There have always been Bundists, Jewish communists, Reform Jews, and ultra-Orthodox Jews who strongly opposed Zionism without being Judeophobes. So, too, there are conservatives, liberals, and leftists in the West today who are pro-Palestinian, antagonistic toward Israel, and deeply distrustful of Zionism without crossing the line into anti- Semitism. There are also Israeli "post-Zionists" who object to the definition of Israel as an exclusively or even a predominantly "Jewish" state without feeling hostile toward Jews as such. There are others, too, who question whether Jews are really a nation; or who reject Zionism because they believe its accomplishment inevitably resulted in uprooting many Palestinians. None of these positions is intrinsically anti-Semitic in the sense of expressing opposition or hatred toward Jews as Jews. Hardcore anti-Zionists will not just shut up about how all criticism of Israel is supposedly being called anti-Zionists. Which is amusing because it's just so transparent an attempt to ward off criticisms of how their rhetoric can sometimes veer into outright antisemitism, like Tea Partiers ranting about how blacks are always playing "the race card". Your total inability to acknowledge the argument Wistrich is making is a case in point. If you can delude yourself into thinking that all anti-Zionism will be unfairly be smeared as antisemitism then you can just reject any accusation of self-described anti-Zionists veering into antisemitism.
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Dec 21, 2015 00:25
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team overhead smash posted:Now on the other hand they won't have a special privileged status where non-Jewish ethnicities and religions are at best treated as second class and they wouldn't be able to enact laws to discriminate against other ethnicities and guarantee a permanent Jewish majority, but if anyone thinks that should be the basis of any nation then gently caress 'em. I will never grow tired of hearing anti-Zionists insist in the same breath that Jewish nationalism is an evil racist blight that must be torn out so as to make way for Palestinian nationalism. Or how it's a crime against humanity that Israel offers immigration to people of Jewish descent and one that must be halted so as to offer immigration to people of Palestinian descent. captainblastum posted:You quoted a passage that asserts that opposition to Zionism does not require anti-semitism, and then immediately connected opposition to Zionism to anti-semitism. Do you, personally, think that it is possible to oppose Zionism without being an anti-semite? As a similar - but separate - question do you think that it is possible to oppose the policies and/or actions of the Israeli government without being an anti-semite? I don't know if your eyes just slide off the screen when they come to a quote like the one below as a way to resolve feelings of cognitive dissonance, but I'm going to quote it again and ask how any person could honestly read this as asserting that it's impossible to criticize the Israeli government without being an antisemite. quote:There have always been Bundists, Jewish communists, Reform Jews, and ultra-Orthodox Jews who strongly opposed Zionism without being Judeophobes. So, too, there are conservatives, liberals, and leftists in the West today who are pro-Palestinian, antagonistic toward Israel, and deeply distrustful of Zionism without crossing the line into anti- Semitism. There are also Israeli "post-Zionists" who object to the definition of Israel as an exclusively or even a predominantly "Jewish" state without feeling hostile toward Jews as such. There are others, too, who question whether Jews are really a nation; or who reject Zionism because they believe its accomplishment inevitably resulted in uprooting many Palestinians. None of these positions is intrinsically anti-Semitic in the sense of expressing opposition or hatred toward Jews as Jews.
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Dec 21, 2015 23:49
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team overhead smash posted:It turns out allowing people into your country of one ethnicity as part of your policy of racial purity, ethnic cleansing and war crimes isn't the same thing as allowing people of one ethnicity into your country as part of a commitment to egalitarianism, following international law and reversing the effects of war crimes. "We should preferentially allow people of the _____ ethnic group citizenship rights in this country" a) Jewish - You are secretly Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS. b) Palestinian - You have a shining commitment to egalitarianism and justice, you paragon of moral virtue. team overhead smash posted:It's already been explained how ridiculous this idea is over the last page in this thread. Does this mean you are going to insist on enforceable protections for the rights of a Jewish minority in not-Israel? Why don't you share them with us then. Maybe some sort of power-sharing political arrangement? Or is it the old "Get hosed Zionists, you've got this coming"? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 22, 2015 20:27
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team overhead smash posted:You also ignored me pointing out how your entire scenario is fantasy that you've concocted in your head and that if BDS got exactly what they want there would be precisely 0 people preferentially allowed into Israel because of their ethnicity, although a minority of Palestinians would have the right to return based on their internationally recognised status as refugees regardless of their ethnicity. If you're going to insist that anti-Zionism has nothing to do with Jews and that you simply reject entirely the idea of the nation-state then you're going to have to do a better job coming up for an excuse for why you want to see the despised Jewish state replaced by a Palestinian state. Or is this going to be one of those horseshoe theory moments and you're going to insist there are no such thing as the Palestinian people, so a Palestinian right of return doesn't favor a particular ethnic-national group? quote:Actually, scratch that. Why are you so concerned about the potential human rights abuses in some bizarre alternate reality that you've concocted in your head rather than - say - the actual real, wide-scale human rights abuses and war crimes that are being committed right now by Israel against the Palestinians? If you must know, I merely wished to illustrate the near total indifference of many anti-Zionists to the rights of Jews in a post-Zionist, post-Right of Return post-Israel where they are a minority. And you performed as expected by indicating that you simply don't care. This is a D&D I/P thread you know, it's a safe space if you just want to come out and say that any Zionists who stick around will get what's coming to them if that's what you believe, and I doubt it will be an unpopular position.
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Dec 23, 2015 03:31
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Cat Mattress posted:There is a risk that Jews would be persecuted by Palestinians if they were freed, just like how everyone remembers the genocide of Afrikaners in South Africa. Because of this hypothetical risk in a hypothetical future, it is important to keep the status quo. No actual, current, on-going injustice will ever be as bad as the hypothetical future injustice that can easily be prevented from happening in the first place. If I mention Zimbabwe will you give a real answer or just dodge the question again? As I've said, it's a D&D I/P thread, do you really think people are going to criticize you for an answer that's essentially "Whatever happens to them, happens"? Kajeesus posted:Are you capable of arguing against any point people have actually made? Nobody has demanded that Israel should be replaced by a Palestinian nation-state, let alone one founded on ethnic supremacy. You're a thread regular; you know this much. What purpose does tilting at this ridiculous straw man serve? I'm well aware anti-Zionists who like to suggest they see nationalism as the supreme evil and Jewish nationalism as the worst example possible don't like to own up to the irony of their advocating for an ethnically based nation-state in what is currently Israel. It's right up there with playing coy and pretending a one-state solution with an unrestricted right of return isn't basically a more polite 'Death to Israel'.
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Dec 23, 2015 09:02
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah. An infant. Get the gently caress out. In actual news, two non-photographic humans were stabbed to death in Israel recently http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/24/world/middleeast/israel-jerusalem-palestinian-stabbing.html?ribbon-ad-idx=7&rref=world/middleeast quote:JERUSALEM — Two Palestinian assailants stabbed two Israeli Jews, one fatally, near a normally bustling entrance to the Old City of Jerusalem on Wednesday, and were shot by Israeli border police officers at the scene, the police said. And in related news http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/15/world/middleeast/palestinian-rams-car-into-crowd-of-israelis-at-jerusalem-bus-stop.html quote:JERUSALEM — A Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem rammed a car into a crowd of Israelis at a Jerusalem bus stop on Monday, according to the Israeli police, injuring about a dozen of them, including an 18-month-old baby. Just gonna go ahead and point out that anyone who thinks stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing actual people to death is probably a morally loathsome human being.
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Dec 24, 2015 22:46
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Ultramega posted:It's totally a thing that in this world, when decrying multiple wrongs one must pick one, and only one to get especially froggy about otherwise you're just a hypocrite for thinking two things can be perhaps not equally, but in varying degrees hosed up. Thank. Are you really going to go this route when the major story in I/P conflict over the past several months have been the stabbings of Israelis? Are we going to pretend that out of the twenty-ish fatalities(and many more casualties) including several very recent ones the fact that the stabbing the usual suspects find time to condemn(and can't fit in any mention of any other) is the stabbing of a picture? Stabbing a picture is worse than stabbing a person. How on earth can anyone find that an arguable or outrageous statement?
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Dec 25, 2015 03:21
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Stop arguing against points nobody is even attempting to make. That would require anti-Zionists actually acknowledging the existence of Israeli victims of terrorism. Go do a search at nytimes.com or google news or any other major news site for "israel stabbing" articles from the past three months. Then tell me the only incident even worthy of mention in a thread titled "Of Israel and Palestine" involves the one in which a photograph is being stabbed. It's just like the meltdown in the last I/P thread over the video of the Palestinian teenager shot while trying to kill Israelis. An ugly display, but one that seemed to provoke an endless outflow of spittle flecked rage from the same posters who reacted with a near total indifference to the killings of Israelis. Hell, I'm not asking for equality here, just a simple plea that this thread not start with a pages long display of dehumanization directed against Israeli Jews. And yes, an intentional effort to ignore the existence of an entire class of (actual dead people) victims in favor of focusing exclusively on a (not alive or dead because a piece of paper) photograph counts. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Dec 25, 2015 |
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Dec 25, 2015 06:19
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Cat Mattress posted:The existence of Israel is threatened by the idea that Palestinians are human people. As constructive and useful a post as ever. Must I really point out the irony in you accusing Israelis of dehumanizing Palestinians? In actual news, Ehud Olmert is going to jail even though his sentence got cut. quote:JERUSALEM — The Israeli Supreme Court reduced a prison sentence for Ehud Olmert, a former Israeli prime minister, on Tuesday to 18 months from six years after overturning the main part of his conviction on bribery charges.
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Dec 30, 2015 12:07
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Ddraig posted:I just watched Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists" documentary and I have to ask: Do do you think he painted you in the best possible light, TIC? I assume you're one of the guys in it. If you're looking for people who can explain why they dehumanize their enemy and legitimize violence even against peaceful civilians, you should probably talk to some of the usual suspects in the I/P thread. Haven't seen the documentary, is there a point where they discuss how young Palestinians in the West Bank can be before they're too young to be killed? Do they constantly make comparisons between Palestinians and the Third Reich to try to justify their hatred?
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Dec 30, 2015 22:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Whenever Israel kills a 14 year old there are people are falling over themselves to point out that they're totally an adult by Arab standards, yeah I'm sure there are, and those people are generally scumbag racists. Meanwhile, in these threads, there are people who fall all over themselves to explain how a 14 year old(or younger) Jew in the West Bank is a legitimate target. They never seem to see the irony, however.
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Dec 31, 2015 03:37
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LemonDrizzle posted:http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.694620?v=46E47D434FAE8D10324F7CD903E46371 http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.694652 quote:Mk Merav Michaeli, the whip of the Zionist Union, also responded to the disqualification of the book. "Hordes of Arabs are on their way to the polling stations, Arabs are taking our girls – these are two sides of the same coin. In a place where people are disqualified, it's clear that books that represent them as humans are also disqualified. In a place where people with views that are unacceptable to the government are marked, it's clear that works of literature and art are also censored. The thought police is already here." Ytlaya posted:You keep saying this, but I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread or the last who has justified acts of Palestinian violence. The closest thing I can think of is people saying that such violence is to be expected under an occupation and that condemning them is not as useful as condemning the country that created that situation in the first place. But I can't think of a single person that has said "it's okay and good that this Palestinian knifed people." lol. It's like listening to to  talk about how they don't want cops to gun down black kids in principle, it's just that they don't seem to think it's acceptable to criticize them in any way when they do and every single concrete incident ultimately ends up being the victim's fault and a condemnation of black "culture". But don't you dare imply that racists, that's just playing the race card, and anyway they didn't affirmatively and explicitly state they want innocent black children to be murdered by the police.
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Dec 31, 2015 05:40
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Gandhi posted:And suffering voluntarily undergone will bring them an inner strength and joy which no number of resolutions of sympathy passed in the world outside Germany can. Indeed, even if Britain, France and America were to declare hostilities against Germany, they can bring no inner joy, no inner strength. The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imagined could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the godfearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep. Kind of hard to justify Gandhi's position in 1938 that German Jews should have allowed themselves to be slaughtered by the Nazis rather than offer any resistance. I suppose it makes a sort of coherent sense in light of his sustained commitment to a radical pacifism. The great irony is when Gandhi's views on Zionism are introduced by the same crowd who angrily reject any suggest that Palestinians embrace non-violence, apparently Gandhi can also be portrayed as a kind of proto-Hamas member when it's convenient to use him to try to both condemn Zionism and to justify anti-Jewish terrorism. team overhead smash posted:Edit: Who would have thought trying to argue "Hey, war crimes which kill civilians are bad and shouldn't be committed" would be so god drat hard? Because you're trying to convince them that Israelis have comprehensible and sympathetic human motivations that can lead them to support unjust or disproportionate military and political acts, as compared to being a monolithic mass of bloodthirsty racists with no real goals other than the taking of as many innocent Palestinian lives as possible. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 01:45
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Ytlaya posted:You keep saying this, but I don't think I've seen anyone in this thread or the last who has justified acts of Palestinian violence. It's always nice when other posters jump in to make my case for me: Ddraig posted:On the other hand, I think it's good that the Palestinians do fire rockets FlamingLiberal posted:Since they have virtually no other methods to fight back, and no way to do anything right now via the political process, it's really hard to blame those of them that do it. Ytlaya posted:But objecting to Israeli policy/actions is something that is actually legitimate independent of the fact that many antisemitic people also hate Israel. With all other examples of concealed racism, it is easy to explain why the things the racists in question say are dumb and without basis. But "Israel does a bunch of disproportionately bad stuff" is something with a bunch of hard evidence, and Israel is not synonymous with "Jewish people." That right-wingers ranting about "thugs" and tide of black on white violence can attempt to point to actual individual incidents of violent street crime notwithstanding, their occasional recourse to real data points does not mean the narrative they attempt to weave is one infused with racism. The irony is that there's certain people for whom that is perfectly clear, who consider themselves very conscious of the subtle manifestations of institutional racism and white privilege and racial bias in everything from policing to pop culture. But all of that nuance goes right out the window when Israel is involved. Then it's fine to talk about how those bloodthirsty, deceitful Zionists simply want to slaughter Palestinian children. And of course, any attempt to point out why that sort of characterization is problematic is met with the standard Tea Party-esque "How dare you play the anti-semitism card!" outrage.
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Jan 3, 2016 06:29
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Cat Mattress posted:They're mostly targeting desert sand. What they're targeting are Jews, but you knew that of course. Main Paineframe posted:Yeah, it's not like Israel ever stole Palestinian land prior to 1967. Is this your tacit endorsement of the balls-to-the-wall full throttle Death To Israel position? Calling Israel inside the pre-1967 borders stolen land makes it pretty obvious where one stands. Always strikes me as kind of disingenuous when someone complains about how those darn Israelis won't compromise for peace when what they want to see is not any sort of compromise or two-state solution but the eradication of the state of Israel. Nevvy Z posted:This isn't remotely a war. It's not so much a fight as a man killing a caged opponent with a knife. Slowly. For fun. Must I really point out the irony of using the metaphor of stabbing someone to death with a knife given recent events in the region?
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Jan 5, 2016 07:00
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So it seems obvious there's a sizeable contingent of anti-Israeli posters who are willing to condone rocket attacks against Israeli civilians. Would any of you like to contribute to the discussion with your opinion on suicide bombings? It seems that the arguments in favor of shooting rockets at Israeli population centers, such as they are, also would apply to suicide bombers. And on a related note, does the same moral calculus apply to attacks outside of Israel by Palestinian groups? Is anyone going to defend Munich or the Achille Lauro?
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Jan 9, 2016 10:27
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Cat Mattress posted:It isn't possible to defend Israel's actions; so the pro-Israel posters are merely reduced to attack pro-Palestinian posters, usually with the cudgel of antisemitism. If one wishes one's pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli stance to be marred by discussions about anti-semitism then it befits oneself to make some attempt to avoid anti-semitic canards. I want to be understanding, I acknowledge the possibility that depicting Israeli Jews as cruel, bloodthirsty, cowardly, deceitful murderers is something that gives you some sort of emotional thrill. But are you saying you can't make a case against Israeli policy without resorting to that sort of stereotyping?
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Jan 10, 2016 02:50
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XMNN posted:hi insect boy do you acknowledge that the idf has committed war crimes eg during their recent mowing the grass campaigns yes or no Well of course it did. Why do you people think that's so difficult an admission? Is it because even a grudging, passive aggressive demi-admission(is a 'technical' war crime like 'technical' virginity?) that Hamas engages in war crimes in their attacks against Israelis is so very difficult for you for some reason?
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Jan 10, 2016 10:50
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Ytlaya posted:It should also be obvious that there's a debate about this and it's hardly some consensus on the part of "anti-Israel" posters (not to mention the fact that people often sympathize with morally wrong actions if they're committed by an oppressed underdog). You're perfectly right, there is a range of opinion albeit a narrowly limited one. That said, splitting down the middle on the 'is it ok to murder innocent people' question does not speak highly of the ability of the anti-Zionist posters to empathize with with both Palestinians and Israelis. The response to that question should not be another question asking what tribe the victims/perpetrators belong to. team overhead smash posted:With suicide bombs it is possible to discriminate and you can do attacks which inflict entirely or largely military casualties/damage. Take the Kerem Shalom suicide bombing in 2008. A suicide bomber detonated their bomb at an Israeli outpost and I believe all the casualties were military. It was a legitimate attack. Now it's possible to make an attack with a suicide bomber that is a war crime, detonating it in a crowded market, but that's down to the choice of the bomber you could make the same argument for a gun or a knife. You can choose to shoot/stab an IDF soldier or you can choose to shoot/stab a civilian. The use of suicide bombs, guns, knives and such aren't inherently a war crime like rockets are, they can be used legitimately or as part of a war crime depending on the choice of the user. Can I take this to mean that suicide bombings, stabbings, and other various terrorist attacks directed against civilian targets are not at all morally acceptable? Would anyone like to object to that contention?
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Jan 11, 2016 08:39
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BlitzkriegOfColour posted:What is more noble than giving your life for your country and people? I always marvel at this sort of projection. Is it a cynical attempt to make the 'the only good Zionist is a dead Zionist' extremism of the anti-Zionist fringe seem less objectionable in comparison? Or is it because those who see the I/P conflict as a struggle between the forces of good and capital e Evil can't imagine how anyone else can see it any other way?
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Jan 13, 2016 22:51
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FreshlyShaven posted:From the article: Here are literally the first two sentences of the article. You realize that it's possible for us to actually click on and read the links that you post? Or are we supposed to be surprised that support drops when wording about major concessions are included? Want to take a guess how Palestinian polled support for a two-state solution would change if you prefaced it with a clause stating it meant abandoning the return of Palestinian refugees? And please don't move the goalposts, since you were the one insisting that the idea that anti-Zionists aren't more opposed to a two state solution than Zionists is "completely wrong". quote:A poll has found that 75% of Israeli Jews oppose the creation of a Palestinian state within the pre-1967 borders if it means withdrawing Israeli troops from the Jordan Valley. Ultramega posted:Gandhi totally advocated a willingness to die in the name of nonviolent resistance but seriously you are a stupid loving person if you think he would have applied the same measures as say british colonial interests to that of jews resisting the nazis/mechanisms of the nazi holocaust. Yeah, about that hypothetical "stupid loving person" being ignorant of Gandhi's stance on nonviolence and the Holocaust... Gandhi posted:Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions
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Jan 21, 2016 22:16
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Yardbomb posted:Those crafty depressed children with their suicide-knife-bombs. If only those jack-booted IDF soldiers could learn from the inspiring example of this woman. team overhead smash posted:13 year old refugee girl shot dead trying to stab an Israeli security guard I agree but I'm not quite sure where you're coming from where you seem to imply that her "accomplishing nothing" is part of the reason for that heartbreak. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 09:18
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Lum_ posted:*literally advocating the rape of relatives as punishment levied by a state*". Below, from literally the same article. Once again, you do realize it's possible for us to click on these links and read the entire pieces? That not all of us are here to stroke our rage boners with "Zionist advocates cutting off thumbs from all Palestinians so they can't hold knives!" one-liners? quote:Dr. Kedar did not call and does not call to fight terror with anything but legal and moral means. Dr. Kedar wished to stress that there are no means to deter suicide bombers, and used the example of rape as an exaggeration. To remove any doubt whatsoever, there is no recommendation, God forbid, in Dr. Kedar’s words to do these horrific things. The purpose was to define the culture of death of the terrorist organizations. Dr. Kedar illustrated in his words the bitter reality of the Middle East and the inability of a modern and law abiding country to fight terror of suicide bombers. It's not as if his actual position wasn't bad enough on its own, why misrepresent it? The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 04:41
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Slanderer posted:Welp, I just remembered why I shouldn't argue about this stuff on facebook Yeah, I bet not-quite-neo-Confederates who want their Confederate flag mudflaps and bikinis but who consider themselves "colorblind" don't like being reminded about the ineluctable historical and ideological connection between racism and symbols of the Confederacy either. Just as anti-Zionists who want to be excused for using shopworn anti-semitic tropes shriek in outrage when any suggestion is made that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism sometimes overlap. Cat Mattress posted:There's a bunch of conspiracy nuts for whom "zionist" is shorthand for "the malevolent secret cabal of Jewish Freemason Communists who control the world through banks, fluoridated water, and mind-control technology developed by the lizard people from the Hollow Earth".   I agree that these are the sort of things that an anti-semite would believe. Little surprised by your agreement on that, however. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 18:31
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Suitaru posted:Still have to hold in my laughter "Jews run the world with the help of secret lizard aliens? What a nut! Everybody knows Jews run the world without any alien help  " isn't something anyone should pat themselves on the back for believing.Kajeesus posted:Reminder that your previous post in this thread was defending a guy who called for state-sanctioned family rape by saying he followed it up with "but I don't like actually endorse it, I'm just saying if you're really dedicated to stopping terrorism..." I almost added a caveat on that post dealing with the possible objection that by correcting someone's bullshit misrepresentation of the facts that I was agreeing with the misrepresentation. But I decided not to because I didn't want to assume someone would be that stupid or dishonest. My bad. Are we still in agreement that Dees's work is anti-semitic? Or are we going with a 'he's got it right up until the chemtrails and GMO stuff'?
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Jan 27, 2016 19:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It was explicitly brought up as an example of anti-semitism, idiot I'm hopeful that can remain the thread consensus if someone implies that Zionists covertly control American(or Western) foreign policy, or that Israelis are a bunch bloodthirsty monsters gleefully slaughtering Palestinian innocents. Because, as you point out so courteously, at that point you're already into dees territory. Main Paineframe posted:A common anti-semitic excuse throughout history has been to accuse Jews of having dual loyalties that might result in them working against their birth country for the sake of foreign Jews. It's good to have at least one poster in the thread be willing to admit this. quote:The rise of Zionism has only exacerbated that - especially considering that Zionist organizations often intentionally act to cast and encourage such suspicions, in order to stoke antisemitism in hopes that it will encourage Jews to immigrate. The idea that "Zionist organizations" are often intentionally acting to stir up antisemitism is definitely gonna be a citation needed claim. Which Zionist organizations are acting to encourage anti-semitic stereotypes? AIPAC? Hillel? Help us out here.
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Jan 28, 2016 01:12
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Main Paineframe posted:I said Zionist organizations, so why are you suggesting Jewish organizations that have little to do with Zionism? Pretty sure both AIPAC and Hillel support the existence of a Jewish state, so yeah, they're Zionist organizations. Main Paineframe posted:Zionist organizations often intentionally act to cast and encourage such suspicions, in order to stoke antisemitism Now that we've got that out of the way, let's go back to how you were going to tell us how antisemitism is caused by those nasty Zionists who stir it up intentionally? And before you get all weepy about how I'm making insinuations about your perfectly above board arguments, let me help you by being explicit: The claim that Jews are to blame for antisemitism is absolutely a well-known antisemitic canard.
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Jan 29, 2016 10:05
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Real hurthling! posted:I like rashid khalidi's the iron cage for a broad look at how the current situation developed. Theres lots others that might be more up to date though Or if you want an actually good suggestion read 'Righteous Victims' by Benny Morris instead of anything by Khalidi.
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Jan 30, 2016 06:50
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team overhead smash posted:Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein a suggested previously is a pro-buy that deals with a lot of false claims and beliefs you may come across if you start reading into the conflict and comprehensively dismantles them, often showing how the source material of other authors making these claims was distorted, fabricated or plagiarised. I also feel for him because his personal beliefs and integrity really killed his academic career. It'll also give you a decent overview of some key points conflict just because the process of tearing apart all the fictional beliefs will involve showing what the actual realistic approach is I changed my mind. Khalidi's work has some glaringly obvious biases and flaws, as well as some real head scratchers(gay rights are an insidious western plot, etc.) but he's a serious scholar. Recommending Norman Finkelstein to someone who wants to obtain a basic grounding in the history of the I/P conflict is like telling someone interested in the history of Reconstruction to just watch Birth of a Nation a few times. It's difficult to believe that even a fanatic thinks it's a sensible, unbiased look at the issue. If you're going to recommend a polemic in an attempt to proselytize, you should have the honesty to say that's what you're doing. But I should be encouraged the recommendations weren't just electronic intifada and Institute for Historical Review links. I suppose that's an improvement, of sorts. Nevvy Z posted:This guy is hilarious. Jews have been victimized in the past therefore anything terrible they do now is justified because in the long historical run jews will have been treated worse. Is it possible this is as stupid as it appears to be? Do you understand that the title of the book is not an endorsement of the idea that Jews were simply 'righteous victims' in 1947? Your posts have all been useless one-liners which indicate a more than usually complete ignorance of the subject, so I worry it is.
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Jan 31, 2016 06:32
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Cat Mattress posted:Yes, they do. They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.) Thanks for this latest outburst of your barely concealed
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Feb 1, 2016 02:42
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Cat Mattress posted:So, justifying ethnic cleansing because "it's a practical necessity" or because "Israel won, Arabs lost, git gud or gtfo" is perfectly legitimate and sincere defense of Israel, but paraphrasing scripture is not? You are not very consistent. Wow, the mask slips. I was expecting you to backpedal, not dive right in. You sure you want to wave around some out of context bits of scripture as proof for your "Jews are bloodthirsty killers" thesis? Cat Mattress posted:They are God's chosen people, and God has tasked them with eradicating every other nation on Earth, sparing not the women, not the children, not the cattle. (A cow that belongs to a Palestinian is also part of the Palestinian hivemind.)
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Feb 1, 2016 11:06
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team overhead smash posted:He's not presenting his own views, he's criticising the views of hakimashou who is literally supporting the ethnic cleansing and war crimes comitted by Jewish Israelis on Arab palestinians by rewording hakimashou's viewpoint to make it clear how awful the stuff hakimashou is saying is. Ah, I see. It's funny, ironic anti-semitism. He's parodying hakimashou. By making a completely different sort of argument(the classically antisemitic one) instead of hakimashou's(the sociopathic "realist" one). What reactionary extremist Likudnik scum is he parodying in the post below, where he repeats the "Jews are bloodthirsty fanatics commanded by their god to slaughter non-Jews" 'joke'? Let's take a look.... Cat Mattress posted:1. They are Amalek Oh. It's in response to this one: team overhead smash posted:It can't simply kill Palestinians on a massive scale for absolutely no reason, it needs some kind of rationale even if it's not a good one. The reason C.M. keeps saying this stuff is because he believes it.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:40
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Nevvy Z posted:I doubt he cares. It's just a convenient cudgel. He's not actually concerned about the plight of Jews the world over, just defending Israels actions no matter what. It's always grimly amusing to watch how a certain variety of anti-Zionist poster comes to imitate , almost word for word. "Those lie-berals don't really care about the ghetto thugs, it's just a way for them to play the race card"
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Feb 2, 2016 08:06
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In other news the Zionist octopus, as part of its sinister plot to exterminate the Palestinian people, has sentenced the two Israeli teenagers who carried out the murder of Abu Khdeir. http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.701373 quote:The Jerusalem District Court sentenced the two minors convicted of the July 2014 murder of Palestinian teen Mohammed Abu Khdeir; one received a life sentence and the other was sentenced to 21 years in prison. Each minor will also be forced to pay the Abu Khdeir family 30,000 shekels (about $7,700) in compensation.
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Feb 4, 2016 17:00
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I want to bounce off this one in particular. I think one of the other reasons for the focus on Israeli human rights violations is that it actually claims aspirations to be a state in support of human rights to begin with. This is easily the worst/stupidest/most bizarre anti-Israel argument that gets regurgitated in these threads. It's got the barely sub subtext of "If they stopped pretending to be ranked amongst us civilized Westerners, the way the Arabs have, we wouldn't have this problem" style Orientalism. And that's without addressing the weird racial issues where white Europeans/Americans decide to impose a white identity on Israeli Jews. Its 'reasoning' also leads to grotesque conclusions, like the idea that the creation of an explicitly theocratic non-democratic state in Israel would be an improvement because it wouldn't be as hypocritical.
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Feb 9, 2016 02:11
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Demiurge4 posted:Totally not apartheid! Yes, we all remember that time when those three black MPs were suspended from the parliament of apartheid South Africa, leaving black Africans in control of the third largest parliamentary bloc. Truly horrifying, do these Zionist fiends have any limits? quote:What are you afraid of? Bibi, Bennett, Ariel, Smotrich, Elkin, Levin, Hotovely, what are you, nerds? http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.702639 The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 03:29
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Main Paineframe posted:But that's not really what I want to talk about today. What's getting my goose right now is the form of Holocaust denial nobody talks about : a denial that anyone besides Jews died in the Holocaust. Now lecture us about all those white victims of lynching(there were a significant number, fwiw) in the Jim Crow South and the insidious plot by historians to portray victims of lynching as exclusively black. MonsieurChoc posted:I've never seen the Communist victims of the Holocaust mentioned. Ever. Given that you are aware of Communist victims of the Holocaust then it is obviously true that you have seen them mentioned. Unless you were randomly guessing(i.e. "I've never seen the philatelist victims mentioned!") of course.
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Feb 19, 2016 10:10
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