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Who What Now posted:Apparently there is literally no difference at all between armed protestors threatening violence and unarmed, non-violent protestors. They are exactly the same in all ways and should under no circumstances ever be treated differently. why, exactly, should federal agents have to risk their lives to make arrests during the standoff, rather than after it? edit: literally every person in this thread thinks that these guys should be arrested at some point. there is nobody opposed to this
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Jan 7, 2016 22:53
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Can you tell us in which situations they attempted to blockade federal business in a federal building? why the hell should that be more important than taking action in a crowded area. i am much more concerned with the government dealing with things that impact daily life than i am concerned with them not tolerating anybody steppin' on their turf
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Jan 7, 2016 22:57
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cunny mcalister posted:When they make the arrests, you will have a valid point. Wait, what exactly about the governments actions so far are you mad about, specifically? What is it that the FBI is doing wrong?
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Jan 7, 2016 22:58
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Condiv posted:why can't they arrest them while they're in town away from the others? that chips em away too the ones going to get supplies might very well not be guilty of breaking any real laws? the only people who have done anything more than basic protesting are the handful who have talked about shooting back if the government comes in, and I doubt those guys are the ones going into town they're too busy hiding under their tarps
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Jan 8, 2016 16:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Conspiracy to commit, if nothing else. I should have been clearer, by "real laws" I meant "serious offenses worthy of being arrested on sight", I'll admit I worded it stupidly
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Jan 8, 2016 16:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm the liberal goon in d&d getting increasingly agitated as to why the police are not raiding/arresting peaceful protesters the only significant difference between these guys and other protesters is that they made vague threats towards the authorities. which is apparently a good reason to perform a risky raid on the building?
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Jan 8, 2016 16:54
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cunny mcalister posted:If they are peaceful, how would the raid be risky? whoops, looks like I didn't use the word "peaceful"? They're douchebags, probably should serve some jail time for this, but the top priority is limiting loss of human life, because nothing they're doing is worth putting a federal agent at risk! 
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Jan 8, 2016 17:02
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cunny mcalister posted:ONS was peaceful, yet the law enforcement were able to do things with them, including arresting people within the protests, without fear of reprisal. I'm saying that the armed factor is more serious of an issue than your side of the discussion believes. I get mocked for being afraid of the rednecks, but the FBI is literally scared to act on them and their position is the ideal in your mind. "scared" and "careful" are not the same thing. the FBI should not risk lives over a situation where nobody is in danger. like it or not, level of risk is often a consideration in law enforcement
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Jan 8, 2016 17:06
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cunny mcalister posted:Cops will pull you over for speeding and have their pistol at the ready. quote:Now shift the goalposts to federal agents and we can discuss the importance of armored DEA raids and the risk there. quote:I feel this is a partisan situation where the only reason it is allowed to happen is because its the standard white man. quote:Ammon, though not officially charged with anything, is a known associate of a man that led a previous standoff against the feds. Shouldn't they have been keeping track of him and preventing the situation from even happening? It's not like they had to infiltrate him like other groups, he posted in public his exact plan. The inaction from the ranch standoff clearly only emboldened them, as their dumbasses thought the entire country was with them to the point they didn't think to pack food. quote:I'm not saying storm the place guns blazing. I'm saying stop letting people back in. I'm asking why this was even allowed to happen in the first place. The sheriff has had several meetings with Ammon and yet there was no opportunity to escort him out of town?
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Jan 8, 2016 18:37
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Kazak_Hstan posted:You guys have convinced me, there should be no consequences for this, everyone should just ignore it and hope it goes away. Gonna grab my gun and go claim the local library for myself. Don't you dare suggest anyone should do anything about it, that would be an irresponsible provocation. *looks for poster who doesn't think they should be arrested* *tumbleweeds*
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Jan 8, 2016 19:00
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Popular Thug Drink posted:they're taking a page from the playbook of conservatives who whine about how people on welfare have it made. "oh yeah well i'll just go out and demand what i want at gunpoint and i'm white so there will be ZERO consequences" *remains in computer chair for remainder of day* it's really not hard to understand 1 don't do things that might make the situation escalate 2 punish them once they're not holed up somewhere we can be upset if 2 never happens
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Jan 8, 2016 19:07
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Talmonis posted:People are upset that 2 didn't happen to these exact people last time. The counterpoint of "the BLM is making a case against Cliven Bundy" rings hollow to a lot of people. Sure, but one occurrence doesn't a trend make. Let's get more than a single data point before we declare that these guys are getting away with it. If they DO just walk away from it, we can talk about that. But it's super obvious they shouldn't be trying to arrest these guys right now, the potential for somebody to get shot, and maybe inspire other militias, is really really high The blockade thing I think has more difference of opinion. I'm sorta ambivalent but I would like to see these guys look stupid so I'd be cool with it, but I can imagine that it could legitimize them more than the feds want to, so i dunno, it seems reasonable to me, but maybe there's considerations I'm not privy to? I think a big part of the disconnect is that the FBI isn't actually taking these guys that seriously, but recognizes that any storm the gates behavior is inherently dangerous, even against a bunch of pathetic dummies
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Jan 8, 2016 19:20
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Noam Chomsky posted:I guess the thing is that no one worries about "other X being inspired" where "X," are militias in this case, when it comes to jackbooting on Occupy protesters or BLM folks or any kind of leftist protest action. Only the white conservative militia men are treated with such deference, typically - which, oddly enough, proves the point that you'll be taken very seriously if you are packing a lot of firepower. Well, there's a reason why peaceful protest is a pretty radical concept. Our society is drenched in it's rhetoric now, but the idea of "enact change without hurting anyone" is a thing you have to CONVINCE people of, because it's obvious you'll get more attention if you bring a gun. I think you're still somewhat discounting the complete lack of importance of what they're "occupying". It's a visitor center with some bird dioramas, with nobody nearby who is in any danger except for the armed protesters themselves. That's at least part of it. If this was in a metro area I think the response would be a lot more dramatic.
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Jan 8, 2016 19:28
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SquadronROE posted:
sweet skull, these guys must be really tough and hardcore
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Jan 8, 2016 21:08
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As a Millennial I posted:Read backwards, of course: ok, i can't decide if this is sadder for the feds or the militia bros the feds haven't stopped the regular garbage pickup, but of course the militia aren't intimidating enough to scare off the garbage truck
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Jan 8, 2016 21:35
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Lotka Volterra posted:Unfortunately, after a tragic breach in their tarp they will lose the entire crop. thats a pretty pro reference
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Jan 8, 2016 22:08
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twistedmentat posted:http://usuncut.com/news/oregon-militia-descends-into-fist-fights-chaos/ they're probably not going to shoot each other they will shoot at the cops
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Jan 8, 2016 22:26
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uncurable mlady posted:the wheels of justice turn slowly unless you're a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun, in that case the wheels of justice turn rather quickly The argument being raised is that the FBI behaves very differently than local cops. It does seem a bit of a stretch to directly draw a line from Tamir Rice to this situation - at the very least, even though the officer made way too much of a snap decision(and in the wrong direction) in the Rice case, there's a significant difference in the immediacy of the two situations, and they were being handled by two nearly-unrelated government agencies.
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Jan 9, 2016 00:35
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Condiv posted:sure glad these shitheads get to rifle through gov computers and drive gov trucks while the fbi does nothing The only alternative to that happening is, in fact, a raid. Which is stupid. Not sure why they aren't looking at blockades, though
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Jan 10, 2016 01:41
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McDowell posted:They probably have received such packages but don't talk about them. Pretty sure the address their gave for supplies is a friend who is willing to bring gifts to them. Pretty sure USPS, UPS, or Fedex in the area aren't going to directly deliver to the cabin
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Jan 10, 2016 02:03
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Crain posted:That's kind of their job. Law Enforcement are in the line of fire so that innocent members of the public aren't. no, law enforcement actually does pick and choose their battles all the time. if you're asking agents to attempt a raid, risking their lives, to make sure that we have full use of a bird watching area, you're actually a huge rear end in a top hat
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Jan 11, 2016 16:57
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it's true if they haven't left after a week, there's no way they'll ever leave i'm also seeing less and less discussion/interest of them on news sources, not more?
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Jan 11, 2016 18:31
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Crain posted:
who said two weeks?
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Jan 11, 2016 20:31
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Talmonis posted:Though unsurprising, the Republican attempt to legitimize the militia's bullshit is really disheartening. huh? what are you referring to? Crain posted:That's roughly how long the Cliven Bundy standoff lasted. From early April to about the 14th when the BLM called off the cattle gathering. Others stayed longer as "protection" though because Bundy was saying he was going to get assassinated. what does that have to do with the timeframe for this thing? that one was how long it took the BLM to give up, no?
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Jan 11, 2016 20:48
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Crain posted:I just chose it because the Bundy's are still involved Well, personally, the two week mark is when I would expect the cracks to START showing, not the point where they'd all be gone. I went to summer camp for two weeks as a kid
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Jan 11, 2016 21:09
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Anosmoman posted:These guys are having the time of their lives - they get to pose in tacticool on national TV and people are bringing them doughnuts. They're not going anywhere. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the news coverage is on a downward slope. As long as nothing keeps happening, cameras aren't going to stay pointed at them.
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Jan 11, 2016 21:54
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The Larch posted:Man, it's a good thing they don't want any attention whatsoever because if they did then they might do something in order to keep the news coverage coming. like...what? they have no hostages, they have no FBI to shoot at. What dramatic action do you recommend they take to drum up attention?
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Jan 11, 2016 22:07
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My Man Shran posted:They could initiate a culling of endangered birds or publish those HR records they dug up. that's not going to get them back to the top of CNN. and I really doubt they're going to think of either of those weird things to do? Crain posted:Right now this is what they're doing, and it's drumming up at least some attention: sure, and all that's dumb and not getting them literally 0 attention, but they're hardly where they were a week ago. the threat of violence is the start and end of what makes this story interesting, and unless somebody fires a gun I don't see that changing
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Jan 11, 2016 22:21
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CommieGIR posted:But, let's face it: The Feds, while they might have been playing this by ear to avoid a Waco, have now basically let this monster grow too far to do anything now. And now the Bundys have legitimacy, media coverage or not. what do you mean by legitimacy? I don't agree with your narrative at all, I see no reason to expect the situation to escalate significantly because there really aren't that many ways for it TO escalate.
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Jan 11, 2016 22:46
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kartikeya posted:There are children at the occupied site now. Consider that at the Bundy Ranch standoff, some of these chucklefucks were quite happy to speak glowingly to the press about how they were going to let the BLM agents shoot at their wives and kids first, aka, literally using them as bullet shields. You guys kind've keep ignoring this. No seriously, as long as the FBI continues to do nothing, what, exactly, is going to happen? How is this situation going to boil over?
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Jan 11, 2016 22:54
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Crain posted:Well they are not acting as if they defacto own the land. Following that video where Ammon basically says some Sov Cit magic mumbo that amounts to "We did a thing, we now own the land, we're going to 'give it to the people'", this is the result of that. OK, so, this is the first thing you've said that is legitimately stupid. This ranch is not a replacement for their ranch back home. For starters, it didn't come with free cattle. They don't just gain the land and now they make money on it? Do you think land works like it does in Magic the Gathering? Their cattle will not magically teleport to where they are. There is nothing about this line of argument that isn't dumb. More or less, no part of your narrative makes sense. Yes, they could stay indefinitely if they continue to get donations. But if they don't get media attention (and they're never going to get back to where they were a week ago without firing a weapon), what's the point? You seriously think they're new plan is I LIVE HERE NOW?
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Jan 12, 2016 00:27
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Poaching in a wildlife reserve and setting fires that nearly kill firefighters are, funnily enough, crimes. Being a rancher, strangely, does not preclude you from being a criminal.
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Jan 12, 2016 00:39
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Condiv posted:leftist protest should arm up and violently claim property next time. that way the police will kindly ask them to leave instead of tear gassing, beating, and using sound cannons on them The threat of violence. Actual violence would see the hammer dropped immediately. You're angry at reality, not at society. Dangerous people who are not currently a direct danger to anyone else have a lot of power!
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Jan 12, 2016 00:41
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Crain posted:No poo poo. But they think they do. These guys are Sovereign Citizens. They literally think they magically own the land because they did some ritual. A facebook link was posted that was a video of Ammon Bundy "explaining" this. As far as they are concerned they own the land. And if the government doesn't show up to correct them and let's them work the land, then what difference does it make?
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Jan 12, 2016 00:43
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seriously everyone, these guys are going to take over thousands of acres of land undeveloped for farming and...uh...? Farm it? They're gonna farm it real soon. They'll just plant some cow seedsCommieGIR posted:Do I even need to highlight multiple people killed without having causing any actual violence, and multiple protests having been gassed/attacked without any due cause or are you really that dense?
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Jan 12, 2016 00:46
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Crain posted:So you didn't read the post. So the feds haven't moved on these guys for one week, and you assume that they'll be able to sell off individual sections for mining, and other people will be able to set up mining operations there. And you don't think that's really stupid? CommieGIR posted:Note for all future protests: theflyingorc says if you bring guns, totally expect to be left alone and not arrested or shot. You heard it here.
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Jan 12, 2016 00:47
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SocketWrench posted:Well didn't you see?! They spray painted some trucks and took down a section of fence. Obviously the next step is occupation of the entire west coast!
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Jan 12, 2016 17:17
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what a surprise, the ranchers found the gifts strange, rather than reacting to them like a vampire to a cross
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Jan 12, 2016 17:32
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Not that they aren't being complete and total human garbage, but is there anything actionable against them in the behavior described? I'm not sure any part of what they're doing related to either driving around or approaching people is technically a crime, even if it's incredibly skeevy and they obviously shouldn't be doing it. Repeatedly doing so would display stalking behavior, and I have no illusions that these guys wouldn't love to turn it into harrassment, but I'm not sure they've met the legal requirements for doing so...yet
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Jan 12, 2016 19:16
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SedanChair posted:Ask yourself what they'd be charged with if they were black and riding in a chevy caprice I'd prefer we not treat black people like garbage, rather than achieve fairness by treating everyone like garbage, thanks
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Jan 12, 2016 19:23
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