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Pochoclo posted:So after some depressing myself in the UKMT I entered Nederpol because I was thinking "hey maybe Amsterdam will be a choice after UK collapses", and I see they're going to elect some idiot anti-immigration xenophobe, huh. Don't kid yourself, there weren't any reasonable or good politics anywhere in the EU to start with. I'm afraid we're all going to eat massive amounts of poo poo, not today, maybe not tomorrow but in the long run we're all hosed.
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Mar 5, 2017 19:17
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 16:12 |
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The lesson I've learned from the Catalonian referendum is (once again) the importance of mass media and the information war. Feed enough information to the people for a long enough period (in this case, 10+ years) and, slowly, enough people will believe whatever the gently caress you want without even a second thought. In my mind, it's just a clash between some people to preserve the status quo against another group who just wants to gain power, the good ol story of the world. The actual result of the referendum is inconsequential, the true purpose was to set up the confrontation, and now you have some pretty photos and vids of common people being repressed, bam, public relations war won. The most amusing (and sad thing) about the whole ordeal is that middle-class people in Catalonia are the ones who will probably suffer the most about the whole thing and it turns out they are the most vocal group about it. But what the gently caress do I know, I'm just a provincial lobster trying to make a living in this lovely world.
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Oct 1, 2017 12:11
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Don't think too hard about it, nobody does anyway.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:08
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YF-23 posted:They've been treating Catalonia as occupied territory rather than a part of Spain. It's disgusting. It's a matter of perspective, some amount of violence was inevitable since the beginning. My only hope is that some poor fucker doesn't die in a useless riot somewhere, that would only serve to fan the flames.
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Oct 1, 2017 14:51
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To be able to effectively negotiate something you need both parties to be willing to sit down and discuss the problem, but if one party is entrenched in "the answer is no" and the other sider only answer is "our way or highway", the possibility of a negotiated outcome is murdered before it's even born. I feel the truth is this whole thing has been a farce of colossal proportions. Sure, all the politicians responsible for this are safe and sound, behind high walls and protected by an army of policemen and lawyers. But of course, let's put elders and children in the frontlines, they will look more pitiable when over zealous policemen smacks their heads with a boot or a rubber ball, it will only make our cause more just! What a bunch of miserable, power hungry bastards.
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Oct 1, 2017 15:45
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YF-23 posted:You are doing a lot of bad equivocating here. Two things in particular: Of course they were never given a chance, the government never accepted to have a binding referendum over the independence of Catalonia as the independentists wanted (it goes against the Constitution) and the Catalan government never offered an alternative, instead they went on with the same plan (Sense desobediència no hi ha independència!), knowing perfectly that it was illegal and that the spanish government wont allow that, both sides wanted confrontation, no one blinked and no one backed down, so that's what we have now and that's all what we will have in the foreseeable future. YF-23 posted:Second, you are saying the political class on both sides is protected. But in the past few weeks, the police have arrested Catalan officials over this. And if Spain has its way it's near-certain that they will face a Spanish justice system that will desperately want to punish them for the referendum. Mariano Rajoy on the other hand is risking nothing if Catalonia does end up becoming independent. His political career will be over, sure, but then he can just retire and have a wank for the rest of his days and not give a poo poo. Rajoy is an idiot, sure, but not foolish enough to not act without the full backing of the law, and that's the focus of his position, the Catalan referendum, as it has always been proposed by the Catalan government, it's supposedly ilegal and goes against the Constitution (at least until the Consituional Court says so, until then it's suspended) and there's no way around that, heck even the lawyers of the catalan parliament and other catalan institutions (like the "Consell de Garanties Estatutaries") explicitly warned the Catalan government and parliament about the legal status of their position, but decided to go on and instead choose to opt for the call to disobedience and rousing the people against Spain. The day these politicians decide to put themselves in harm's way for their cause/vision I will start having some respect for them. Can we blame the Spanish government for being narrow-minded and politically brain dead about the whole thing? Yes, as it should be. Are the independentists innocent victims? Of course not, in my point of view, they share at least an equal part of blame in all this nonsense, there's been too much bad faith and manipulation over the years to be any other ways.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:27
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It's a loving clusterfuck that never should have happened, to be honest I expected more death and destruction but I'm not exactly the trusting type, so whatever. It seems we can't have nice things, gently caress this gay earth.
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Oct 1, 2017 16:52
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YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken? It's not like they can force Spain to allow a referendum, not without massive radical action. And even then, we're seeing that now, and I'm not hearing the Spanish government say anything about how maybe they should have acted differently. Yes, I forgot about that, sorry, It's true some people have been arrested or fined for it, the arrested have been liberated while they wait for trial apparently. Some, like Josep Maria Jové (right-hand of Oriol Junqueras) have been cessated from his public office to protect him against further charges, others are asking people for donations to pay for the government fines. The point is, this is only the beggining. YF-23 posted:So what recourse could the Catalan government have taken? It's not like they can force Spain to allow a referendum, not without massive radical action. And even then, we're seeing that now, and I'm not hearing the Spanish government say anything about how maybe they should have acted differently. Not much else to be done really if your goal was to achieve independence right after the referendum, as neither side was willing to change it's position or even admit the other side had a point. ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:You're like the british blaming the colonialists for writing the declaration of independenc after being beat up and shot by the redcoats during their protests. I'm blaming everyone (including me) for being massive self-righteous bigots. I shouldn't be surpised but this kind of things anymore, to be honest. Also, fun side-note, I'm being told that because everyone's attention (including police) is directed towards voting, clubbing and the general clusterfuck, burglars are having a good day in some parts of the country-side.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:24
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Aumanor posted:Good news, they will have a lot more than that now. That was probably the point of it all along.
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Oct 1, 2017 17:39
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Sinteres posted:There's definitely some hyperbole being thrown around given the relatively low stakes involved, but the national government really does seem to institute policies in a way that fucks over (for instance) Barcelona to the benefit of Madrid. There's also an underlying FYGM sentiment among some separatists though, who don't want to be burdened with poorer parts of the country anymore. Obviously the crackdown is angering people too, but that doesn't really explain why it was such an urgent issue before the crackdown. The best case scenario would have been a negotiated solution that saw the country's finances being used more appropriately, but hardliners on both sides aren't looking for negotiated solutions. It has always been about money, no matter how we sugar coat it, that's the real problem.
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Oct 1, 2017 18:42
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Phlegmish posted:I see this FYGM argument come up often, and I think it's only a small part part of the story. You just don't get a popular mass movement like that by only invoking economic arguments. In Belgium, there are absolutely massive transfers going on from Flanders to the rest of the country, yet the Flemish separatist movement is nowhere near as popular and well-organized as that of Catalonia (Belgium will almost certainly cease to exist at some point in the future, but it won't be due to the separatists). It seems to me that in Catalonia, it's the historical and cultural arguments that pack the biggest punch. I agree that I oversimplified the problem and is far more complicated and nuanced than just money, but whenever I speak with people about this, there are many statements that get repeated over and over again, like "Madrid steals from us", "We get much less than what we give" and the like. Many people don't go deeper than this. I've had the impression for years that the core of independentists grievances are about money, especially since the economic crisis that started in 2008 and the movement snowballed in strength since then, the government has promised that everything will be better after independence is declared and many people seems ready to take their word for it. Of course I'm probably wrong because I speak without hard data.
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Oct 1, 2017 19:07
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GaussianCopula posted:*according to Catalan sources Exact numbers don't really matter that much at this point, we can all agreed that a lot of people got hurt today.
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Oct 1, 2017 20:42
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The Catalan government has just announced a general strike the next 3th of October.
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Oct 1, 2017 20:53
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Interesting times, indeed.
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Oct 1, 2017 21:59
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Typo posted:imo most likely catalonia gets some sort of deal where they remain officially part of spain but with significantly expanded local autonomy Do you honestly believe that the Spanish government led by Rajoy is capable of doing so in an effective, subtle way, without relying on violence?
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Oct 1, 2017 22:20
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Don't read too much into the ballot printing issue. In some places the vote was done written down in whatever piece of paper it was available after the ballots had been seized up by the police.
Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 06:13
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Altivia posted:Ahahah where are you getting these wild claims from, La Razón? Saw it yesterday with my own very eyes. I'm not saying it happened everywhere, just at the college I was, so it's purely anecdotical. Of course you're free to believe whatever you want. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Oct 2, 2017 |
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Oct 2, 2017 11:46
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Altivia posted:You should probably report that, then. In the 4 centres across my town plus the other 5 or 6 in Barcelona that I had family/friends at the organisers were very clear only official ballots counted and that if they were requisitioned or ran out the voting wouldn't proceed. It was in a small town in Tarragona and they were overrun by the amount of people from other towns with closed colleges who wanted to vote. Maybe they counted the votes as null ones, as you say, honestly I don't know and it's just first-hand anecdotical evidence. To be honest, some irregularities are to be expected. It was a strange day all around.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:10
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Altivia posted:In that case I apologise for getting glib with you. For what it's worth I hope stuff like that has been properly taken into account by the international observers that were in the region yesterday. I don't think there's been a full report yet, just some comments from the Slovenian ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs last night that the referendum as a whole had "happened normally on the whole despite significant challenges" or somesuch. Don't sweat it, there's a lot of anger flying around here and I'm afraid this whole thing will get even worse, we will see.
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Oct 2, 2017 12:45
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lost in postation posted:I don't think even a central government-approved referendum that drew more than 40% of the electorate would have helped in Catalonia's case. It's a pretty unique combination of very harsh repression of local culture within living memory and the region actually being half-viable economically (or dragged down by the rest of Spain, if you ask the more liberal independentists). Honest question, what makes you say there is a harsh repression of local culture within living memory? Never had that impression in the last 30 years, unless you are referring to a time before '79.
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Oct 3, 2017 11:58
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Dawncloack posted:Remember the '92 olympics? Catalan nationalists in general were beaten up by the police repeatedly to ensure not a single whisper of Catalan dissension was heard in the media or the street. This was told to me by one of my professors, who got to taste a lot of nightstick. Yes, I remember that, demonstrations organised by the prominent independentists groups of the time, like ERC and Terra Lliure and got repressed by the police, 92 was a crazy year. My question was more in the line about examples of cultural/linguistical repression in modern Catalonia, rather than political ones, I was curious to know to which ones he was exatly refering to Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Oct 3, 2017 |
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Oct 3, 2017 13:47
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Dawncloack posted:Fair enough. I would say that a big turning point was the decision by the supreme court about language in schools. Until recently, schools in Catalonia would decide how much Spanish and Catalan teach according to the neihgborhood they were in, but always above a threshold. Some neighborhoods are Spanish only, there they'd teach in Spanish and just have some Catalan lessons. The opposite in Catalan only- 'hoods. I agree with you, the language usage at schools was a hotly contested topic for years, and I can understand if people were upset with how it was solved.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:39
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Altivia posted:Literally the same way - a lady lost her eye, much like it looks like the kid who got hit on Sunday will probably lose his. You make a fair point, I just think it's worth pointing out that the fact the region as a whole responded to the incident by banning rubber bullets (even after a delay) is due a little credit. It's worth noting that the ban of rubber bullets was made by popular demand during a time (around 2013-2014) when Mossos were awfully unpopular due to some cases of police brutality and beatings. From those days, they have cleaned their image quite a bit and have been at their peak popularity since the the recent terrorist attacks.
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Oct 3, 2017 14:54
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Right now, a lot of people are in the state of mind "we are right, they are wrong and everything is their fault", the actual truth of the matter has become irrelevant. If someone does not blink and backs down a little, poo poo is going to hit the fan soon.
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Oct 4, 2017 06:49
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What can we realistically expect from today's session of the EU parliament in regards of the Catalan independence?
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Oct 4, 2017 09:36
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Pissflaps posted:I think the Catalans will bottle it. Not sold on that, too much people seems keen in the independence or bust bandwagon, no matter the consequences. What I'm wondering is what will do the nearly other half of the population who doesn't support independence but have remained silent so far.
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Oct 4, 2017 13:07
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Phlegmish posted:Any pre-1-O poll is worthless now. Sunday changed everything. I really want to see the new numbers. We don't know poo poo, there is no reliable data anymore and I doubt there will be in the near future.
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Oct 4, 2017 14:21
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Truga posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ed02_story.html Washington Post posted:The Catalan filmmaker Isabel Coixet said pro-independence authorities have muffled debate. It must be quite shocking for a known left-winger like her to be now called a fascist (of all things) for oposing independence. Also I agree (at least in part) with this.
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Oct 4, 2017 19:05
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big enough
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GaussianCopula posted:They don't want to declare independence. This is the Tsipras Gambit, where you call for an referendum in the hope that the other side gives in and makes major concessions to stop you from holding the referendum or respects the result of the referendum that they make major concessions after the referendum. Rajoy called their bluff and now it's just a question of time until they surrender. And what happens if they do not surrender?
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Oct 5, 2017 18:50
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It's actually amusing considering how big La Caixa is in Catalonia and how they benefited from it's government over the years.
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Oct 6, 2017 12:42
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Phlegmish posted:That's the crux of the matter. PP courts struck down a statute of autonomy, or most of it, that had been duly approved in [Spanish] parliament. One of the main reasons so many Catalans want independence is because they rightly fear that the central government could revert their autonomy at a whim, or arbitrarily cancel measures taken by the Catalan government. We're seeing that now as well, there's been talk of suspending Catalan autonomy in order to 'punish' them, as if that is fully within their power to do. If Madrid had taken federalism seriously instead of framing it as a favor to be given and taken away, we never would have reached this point. Only 14 articles out of 223 were declared unconstitucional (PP appealed against 114), in my opinion, of those 14, only 4 have a significant political content. Amusingly enough, nobody at the time talked about independence as an answer (unilateral or not), even ERC literally said that in case PP's appeal was approved by the court, the statute would be even less suitable for the needs of Catalonia and that a different Constitutional framework would be necessary to respect the rights of Catalonia. Anyway, any of this matters right now.
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Oct 7, 2017 14:56
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Welp, chicken game over, now what?
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Oct 10, 2017 19:09
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Bet on the most stupid outcome and you"ll win.
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Oct 11, 2017 20:52
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It doesn't really matter if the judge is right or wrong, it's a great PR boost.
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Oct 17, 2017 06:44
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unpacked robinhood posted:For who ? For the pro-independence movement.
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Oct 17, 2017 09:31
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Altivia posted:e: you know, I didn't support independence until 2012, and before that I considered myself Spanish all the way. I really do wish the best for it. And it breaks my heart to see what a farce Spanish democracy has become. Why only since 2012 though?
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Oct 17, 2017 10:11
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In politics everybody is an rear end in a top hat, the ones who blindly believe them are just idiots.
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Oct 17, 2017 11:40
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Cat Mattress posted:Let's go back even earlier then, and give them both to Spain. Just let's go back even further and declare the Euro-Roman Empire.
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Oct 17, 2017 19:43
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Calling new elections is a risky gamble for both sides and I highly doubt anyone would agree to this. Also, gently caress brinksmanship politics, all the bluffs have been called, look for a different take or press the button already.
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Oct 19, 2017 10:19
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 16:12 |
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Things like this are what makes me distrust the independence movement.
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Oct 20, 2017 11:55
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