The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

downout: Jul 6, 2009

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Lol they are now trying to offer me a higher level position with better pay. No idea if I'll take it but seriously, none of this would have happened without advice from this thread, you guys rule.

Don't forget, a higher position comes with higher expectations/responsibilities. So being underpaid (yet at still a higher salary!) for all of that is still being underpaid. It's a bit of a red flag for me when my company says, "oh sure, we can pay you that, we'll just promote you up." There's an implicit sort of reality there where, ya I'm getting paid more, but being asked more. And with a new title that conveniently still underpays me!

# ¿ Feb 27, 2021 06:09

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 00:11

downout: Jul 6, 2009

spwrozek posted:

I think we will just have to disagree.

A company severely understaffs a team, and that is the team's fault?

# ¿ Mar 10, 2021 13:52

downout: Jul 6, 2009

I was thinking more in shorter terms like anyone taking PTO creates serious problems.

Longer term, if someone leaves, then of course there would be staffing shortfalls. Any company that is not dysfunctional would handle it as just another problem to resolve i.e. prioritize work items. A dysfunctional company that had issues when fully staffed just from people taking PTO would be a complete mess. And that would entirely be the company's problem of their own creation. Either they were understaffing a team that had high priority work that is important to the company or the work doesn't have that much priority, in which case it should be easy to prioritize what will not be getting done until the team is fully staffed again.

I get that companies aren't paying people to sit around just to stay 100% ready for all contingencies, but building out staffing where PTO or god forbid someone leaving increases every other member's workload catastrophically is bad management.

Smaller teams/companies might have exceptions to this. A two person team is going to have major issues if one person leaves. But again, any non-dysfunctional company would recognize this, and easily realize if one person leaves that team and all of the work MUST be done, then they will need to replace that person nearly instantly short-term. That company (and employee) should be able to recognize what this would mean for the salaries related to these kinds of small teams, especially if the position's responsibilities are really that important.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2021 14:41

downout: Jul 6, 2009

spwrozek posted:

Ok I will jump back in.....

This is the bolded part that started this. Zarin was never saying that he was run into the ground. he was saying that he feels bad that the rest of the team will have to pick up his work for a bit. key being a short period of time. (e: I see his other post that he feels like the whole team was at 100% but I was responded to the reaction of the bolded part)

Having your team plan out PTO and get it on your calendar is easy and not something that impacts work load. There is always going to be a bit more work for everyone between employee leaves and employee gets backfilled. How you are able to handle it will vary.

I can give an example of what one guy on my team is going through right now. He has two projects right now and had a junior engineer under him on the project (we have a team of 6 engineers). The junior engineer put in his notice December 18th and left the 30th. I submitted for the backfill, Covid policy require all kinds of approvals, got approval Feb 24th, posted job Feb 25th and hopefully will do interviews next week, back ground and all that maybe new engineer starts end of April. So what do we do for 4 months. The projects have to keep going, material has to be ordered, outages are set so we have to meet them and the ISD. Usually I can kick anything over to a consultant but at the stage of the projects that will really not work. I looked at the rest of my teams work and they all have their own projects and can't really drop those. So I pull/delay what I can from the lead engineer and try to get him help but ultimately until I can get the new person on board he is just going to be a little busy. He will still be working 40 hours maybe a couple longer days here or there. He will be a bit more stressed though. We have discussed it 3 times what else we can pull from him or how I could get more help but we both know that it is going to be just a bit of a struggle for 2 more months.

I have never worked anywhere that someone on the team leaving didn't result in something like the above.

Thanks for providing more context. I was envisioning harsher and higher workloads for those remaining when someone leaves.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2021 18:36

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Parallelwoody posted:

Just got an offer today for a position that would need a relo. They offered up to 3k for the relocation (1 house hunting trip, packing/transport expenses) and a few grand under the top of their posted range, which is high for the posted position but probably average for a senior level which it seems that's more the type of work I would be taking on. If I'm aiming for 85k, would accept anything north of 80k, and their offer at 76k (which is close to my current salary) do I counter with 87k? He also said to call if anything needs to be discussed and the experience discrepancy will likely lead to me getting absolutely smoked in negotiations, but I'm not sure how much of a faux pas it would be to email instead. Happy for any advice here.

If they said call, then I'd probably feel a bit of an obligation. Email is easier, but you should get the practice in, because all of this doesn't sound worth it. Low relocation for minimal increase?

# ¿ Mar 17, 2021 01:15

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Anyone have a recommended response if asked your current salary? I think I have a good handle on responding to questions about how much I'm looking for, but that question always gets me. My current employer used it to anchor my salary which is basically going to cost them.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 13:24

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Eric the Mauve posted:

Yep.

Post #1 in this thread, the Original Post if you will, contains the timeless classic answer to the question:

doh - thanks, somewhere deep in my subconscious something was yelling "go read the OP again!". It just didn't click where I'd seen those recommendations.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2021 16:25

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

Whenever anyone asks this question, I hear something pretty different:

"I can't stand for a response to a job application to not end up with a job offer, and so I am terrified of adopting a position which may not align with the prospective company."

Job interviews are not a test in school. If you don't end up finding a mutually beneficial outcome, then not getting an offer is a Good Thing. If the only way that an employer will extend you an offer is by you bending over for them by telling them your current salary, then standing your ground and that employer walking away is you helping yourself.

It hasn't helped that my last few negotiations were not where I was in much of a position to negotiate. It was a job offer where and when I needed and generally included a good enough raise, just not as much as I wanted. I'll try to keep your point in mind in the future.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2021 21:30

downout: Jul 6, 2009

I'm mid career negotiating for quite a bit more and find this thread a valuable resource.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2021 02:16

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Zarin posted:

This is some powerful wisdom here.

For thread content: I've utterly and completely failed the introductory salary question the last two times. Granted, I haven't given away my CURRENT salary, but I've always ended up giving a number first. The first time, I said "I've been given the green light to start looking for new roles internally, and because we're MegaCorp, Inc. the system is incredibly structured; how about I tell you what I expect to make in my next desk, since that will be a more useful figure to work from?". I figure this wasn't the WORST strategy in the world since by giving that number, I was essentially anchoring upwards, telling them they'd need to beat what my next job was going to be by enough to get me to move halfway across the country.

It would have been better if I had just straight-up asked for the range, though. I honestly can't remember if I tried that approach or not; both times they "just wanted to make sure I was in the range" and I'm not sure if I even thought to just straight-up ask. In the past, I've had people tell me ranges before when I tried to dance around the question, so . . . hmm.

I will say that working for a company that tells you where you are in your current salary band is huge. I just changed companies, and not knowing what the bands are or where I am in mine is somewhat off-balancing, to say the least. I figure I'll wait awhile before I start asking how to find that information out over an after-work beer or whatever, though.

I'm going in the opposite direction, interviewing with the first company to ever provide salary band/range details for the position from the start. And not even bother asking my current salary. It's great but unfamiliar. I feel like they anchored me now :confused:

:confused:

# ¿ Apr 7, 2021 15:31

downout: Jul 6, 2009

I'm considering a contract to hire position. One of my concerns is how negotiations would go for me if the company hires me to be a direct employee. Wouldn't I be in a rather difficult position to negotiate? Anyone have experience with this or recommendations?

I am absolutely going to ask for a very high contract rate due to all of the risks and costs I can think of. Here's a working list I started to put together. If there are any more to consider that I might have forgotten then please let me know. It's W2 contract, so at least I'm covered on SS/Medicare tax stuff.

vested 401k loss
401k match loss
bonus loss
pto loss
holidays loss
benefits loss
401k annual tax savings loss
401k 30 year return loss
unemployment coverage
risk of contract
risk of hire negotiation position

# ¿ Apr 24, 2021 14:08

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Keystoned posted:

I think what others have said in this thread is take your expected salary and then double it. Obv you can do more if you want.

Dont forget that youre on the hook for your side of payroll taxes too, so thats another 8% out of your pocket.

See I was confused about the payroll taxes part as I thought that only applied if you were a 1099 contractor. I thought W2 contractors didn't have to deal with the higher taxes/paying social security issue.

edit:

quote:

As a self-employed person, you are responsible for paying 15.3 percent self-employment tax, which is your contribution to Medicare and Social Security tax. Regular employees also pay Medicare and Social Security tax, which amounts to 7.65 percent.

This is kind of the tax/ss stuff I was talking about. I haven't been able to figure out if there is a difference between 1099 and W2 contractor. :confused:

:confused:

Either way, I guess I can completely understand why people say 2x target salary, what a pain in the rear end.

downout fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 24, 2021

# ¿ Apr 24, 2021 19:47

downout: Jul 6, 2009

asur posted:

A W2 contractor will not be paying the employer side of FICA. It's probably state dependent, but I wouldn't necessarily expect a W2 contractor to not get unemployment when their contract ends. The 2x advice is for a 1099 and even that is dependent on what your salary would be since not all costs scale.

Can you not negotiate the hire part now as well? You're basically doing so anyway since the company knows the cost of contractor versus employee.

I first started into the interviews with a clear discussion that I preferred direct hire, but that was with the recruiting agency in between. I made it clear that any contract would have an expectation of very high compensation. So at some point the agency said the hiring company prefers contract right now, and they hire most everyone after the contract, blah blah blah.

They haven't come back with any numbers yet, so I'm just trying to figure out how big of a number I need to cover all my compensation losses above (which now also includes dep care fsa tax loss), and enough money so that if the contract didn't continue I can be unemployed and not care. I'm employed now and am completely ready to turn this down and move on to the next opportunity if necessary.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2021 21:13

downout: Jul 6, 2009

m0therfux0r posted:

I did a contract (W2- not 1099) to hire conversion a couple years ago. You can negotiate, but it's *very very very* limited because you basically have no BATNA.

For this particular job, the contract paid quite well (more than I ever thought I'd be making to be honest), but as you probably guessed, had no benefits beyond a health insurance plan that I was able to pay for prior to taxes. Those tax savings were it though- the staffing agency paid nothing into the actual plan (by that I mean if I had to switch to COBRA, it would have cost exactly the same, but after taxes instead). A lot of companies will try to pay you a lower salary when you convert because of all the compensation that you're now getting (actual company buy-in to health insurance, vacation, sick days, retirement, etc.) and a lot of people who have converted at various companies that I know have been disappointed by that.

When it was time for my conversion, that very thing did happen (although not to an extreme), but I was prepared for it- I had already calculated what my salary would need to be for the same take-home pay now that my health insurance was like 100 bucks a month instead of 400 and just asked for that number as a counter. It was no problem. So basically I ended up with the same take-home pay, but now had a retirement plan, 19 days of vacation, and much better health insurance. It was definitely a decent step up even though it looked like I was actually making a couple thousand less if you just looked at my salary.

That said, I did know that I was already being paid extremely well- for my position in my field, it's probably in the top 25%. If they refused to come up to the number I named, I probably still would have taken the conversion because there's no way I'd be making that kind of money anywhere else around the area- I get recruiters all the time trying to get me for contract positions with the same job title that pay 40-50k less than what I make right now.

If you aren't in a situation like that and they really try to cheap out on your conversion, but you have other options, definitely consider walking.

This covers a lot of my concerns. I guess I'll be requiring a pretty high compensation rate for the contract to have any kind of chance at a competitive offer afterwards.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2021 18:35

downout: Jul 6, 2009

stellers bae posted:

I'm at the near-final interview stage for a senior director role at another digital agency. Their talent person, who just stepped in to the process, called me to tell me that they had received very positive feedback thus far, and wanted to schedule me for an interview with their president, but that based on my lack of experience with their particular vertical focus that they were looking as hiring me as director instead.

I didn't really know what to say and so just kinda blustered my way through it saying this was negotiable but that I'd prefer the SD role, but I was thinking - 'you interviewed me for a senior director role, you liked me, and now you want to demote me before I even start?'. Of course they also used this as a way to anchor their prospective pay towards the absolute bottom of what a director would earn ($165k with 5-10 percent bonus) instead of the $200k I was targeting as SD. Is this common? How should I respond/have responded?

I earn $142k now with annual bonus and the job is chill as gently caress on the client side as a senior manager - am I being greedy by saying I'd only put up with agency bullshit for $200k?

The lower title doesn't matter, but this "their prospective pay towards the absolute bottom of what a director would earn" is bullshit. Like you said, the interviewed you for a senior director role, they liked you, and want to hire you. At the very least the pay should be at the higher end of what a director could make.

I don't think you sound greedy. It sounds like they are loving around. Agencies do indeed have a lot of bullshit. If your current position is solid, then that should be baked into pay increase expectations and +15.0% doesn't sound worth it IMO.

# ¿ May 13, 2021 20:00

downout: Jul 6, 2009

I just got an offer 50.0% above my current salary and hopefully can negotiate for some more. I just wanted to thank everyone here for providing the motivation and information to feel confident to start looking for something better. Your posts literally fed my motivation. For some background, I asked my employer for a 3.0% raise at the beginning of the year. They gave me a bunch of bs, so I started looking. Oops on them.

Now I'm starting into the "omg please don't let this fall through" phase as I masterfully and mentally create all the scenarios in which I can gently caress this up. Also, I want to link to the interview thread which was invaluable as well.

I'll add my details the google doc and stuff some info into as many salary sites as I can once it's finalized.

edit: and for a question, I want to negotiate the base salary to not leave anything at the table. I'm tempted to respond to the offer with a straight 11.0% addition to the base salary, but I'd also be quite happy with less than that. I feel like the thread title change is apropos and points to "just ask for it".

downout fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jun 4, 2021

# ¿ Jun 4, 2021 05:30

downout: Jul 6, 2009

fourwood posted:

Hell yeah, get paid.
Never don�t negotiate.

How very true. Quick update, I counter offered and got another 10% plus a sign on bonus pushing the final offer to +60% above my current compensation. This is going to be a very satisfying resignation.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2021 01:33

downout: Jul 6, 2009

thotsky posted:

Don't burn any bridges.

Oh ya, I won't be. I'll keep it professional. But good callout because it is quite tempting sometimes.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2021 01:55

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Does the value of options and RSUs change at publicly traded companies?

# ¿ Jun 25, 2021 13:00

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Mine are going to be a very small portion of compensation, and I gave a value of very little (1/2 a percent of total comp maybe?) during negotiation. I had multiple offers, but the other wasn't really competitive in salary. So there was no need to even compare them for compensation purposes. It'll be nice to see how they work tho, especially with not much value expected and small tax costs.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2021 14:22

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Not a Children posted:

Seconded. Promises of future raises are worth exactly $0. Ask for what would make you enthusiastically jump into the role, not what you can live with.

I know this because I am the dumbass who got burned by promises of future compensation in my last job transition. My job is great but I could definitely have gone harder on it.

This feels like the last ten years of negotiation for me (without the promises part). I'm paid well; but I could have been paid more. It only get's more clear as time goes on.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 04:12

downout: Jul 6, 2009

SlapActionJackson posted:

Yeah, I'm not thrilled about that, but the recruiter was abundantly clear that he couldn't negotiate the benefits part of the package. Nonetheless, the pay and growth opportunity are worth a bit of vacation rationing in the next few years.

I've heard that at multiple places and every time, shortly after joining, it became very clear that vacation does follow a company policy but is still negotiable.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2021 14:33

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Happiness Commando posted:

I didn't lie, did ask for more money. Got a 6% increase by saying "Can you help me get to [+25%]?". He clicked around a bit, said "oh, wait, it won't let me... hmm.." And then offered what he could. Maybe he could have done more, maybe not. But the offer went from obscene to obscene so thanks thread.

Congrats as well, add to the OP google sheets link if you're cool with it.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2021 04:52

downout: Jul 6, 2009

evobatman posted:

Thanks to this thread I just scored a 54% raise switching jobs.

Always negotiate.

:yotj:

congrats

# ¿ Sep 22, 2021 14:37

downout: Jul 6, 2009

TheParadigm posted:

Lets see.

I think my gut reaction is: The time pressure is there to force a snap decision and not researching the disparity.

I think for my area the absolute minimum to get someone in the door and caring about a job, based on what i've seen poking around job sites, is around 20$/hr. (i saw a restaurant offering 26$/hr for a dishwasher, due to presumably, covid risk/can't find anyone/other fields being better)

I -don't- have other options and am coasting on savings, but my living expenses overall are fairly low. I don't have to take it, but I DO want to get office/admin asst experience on my resume and to get out of my field. Lack of car payments is a big one.

I think the median/50% of range offer is fair for a lack of experience but hit the high notes for team meshing, and the goalposts are on the lowball range by about 2$/hour for the area, gut sense.

Health insurance would, through their plan, cost me $114 per pay period, and come to think of it, I did forget to ask if that was weekly or biweekly. Its a $3k deductable/$8150 out of pocket max/80% coinsurance, so I think that pegs it as a... bronze tier hmo. Disappointing, they talked it up during the interview as being really good. Thats in the right range for $228/mo.

Putting that all together... I could tough out a 48k for a year for experience, but I'm also seeing that as a fairly commonpiece salary in data that will be 2 years out of date by the time I'm over my 60 day period. (at 3% inflation that'd be 51k)

I think I'd like to make 50-55k after a year on the job.

But... I'm also seeing job ads a city over for the same effective role with a listed range of 55-65k; and basic sit at a desk receptionist positions in this place are starting at $22 and up so...

I guess its a tossup between what i'd be willing to settle for, and what the position is worth?

Is it better to demand better benefits, or just shoot for the pay when negotiating?

My initial sense of 'reasonable' that I should shoot for was '$23 during 60 days, 2-3 weeks vacation, automatic col, and X amount after a year, when I'd be fully trained up.) X undecided.

This job to pay ratio doesn't sound great. With that said, a job is better than none when you need one. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for 55k and 3 weeks of PTO. In the old system you would work your way up in a company over years and vacation would increase. Now it is completely common to ask for them to match the vacation you would expect for years in a career. 3 weeks sounds like a good minimum to start. Don't forget; the worst they will probably say is "we won't pay that much". Negotiation rarely gets a job offer pulled (if ever?).

Regarding the pay, you might even want to bump up to 60k. The 2 years of missing 401k match is worth 3k alone, and I'd ask for more because it sounds like there is going to be a lot poo poo to deal with. Chances are they will negotiate down from any number you go for. Are you happy with 50k, probably less than 3 weeks PTO, and "meh" medical benefits?

Honestly, I'd completely dump the attempt at a bonus. This compensation package sounds crappy enough that you might have some weasel-word bs that lets them screw with paying out the bonus after you're an employee.

Just send back the canned statement, "I'm very excited about this opportunity. The team sounded great, and I'm looking forward to getting started. If you can increase the salary to $60,000 and the PTO to 3 weeks a year, then I'm prepared to agree to the offer."

downout fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Sep 30, 2021

# ¿ Sep 30, 2021 04:12

downout: Jul 6, 2009

TheParadigm posted:

Thanks. Do you rephrase the salary to hourly, or just keep it at the x per year verbage?

5 days (and those 5 days possibly including sick days) definitely means they are trying to rip you off. Think about that- if you want to take a long weekend and take a Friday off, after that one day, you already can't take a full week of vacation until the next work year. That's ridiculous (even though it is, disgustingly, 100% legal).

it was! Thanks for the doublecheck, m0therfux0r! that helps.

I sent an email last night asking about the PTO/sick day split (its supposed to be seperate, per their ad) and haven't heard back. Wait for a follow up, or just drop the demands?

I have a feeling that they don't want to go up to 60k/2-3 weeks vacation - is this part of the negotiation dance where you ask for more and negotiate down to acceptable levels?

follow up question, re, etiquette: if you say the 'I'll sign today for _x_' treatment, and they accept, do you actually go and sign/scan the offer letter, or is an email saying you accept enough. Do you sign the original or make them issue a new one?

I'd keep terminology the same as they used in the offer for any compensation discussion. The conversion would asking for 30/hr (~60k/year). That sounds like a lot above their top range, but it's really not.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2021 17:19

downout: Jul 6, 2009

gbut posted:

3% just means not passively reducing your pay, because that's about the annual CoL increase.

Yep, this is exactly why I wanted a raise at my last place. It was clear I was greatly overachieving compared to their expectations, and I wanted my compensation increased to reflect that. They disagreed, and now I make a lot more somewhere else.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2021 16:00

downout: Jul 6, 2009

DTaeKim posted:

Does anyone have information on negotiating in the health care industry?

I applied for an oncology pharmacist position and received an email asking for an interview the following day. I anticipated a screening interview and ended up on my back foot when they asked my experience, salary expectations, and potential starting date.

I KNOW I handicapped myself by providing a salary range, but I did NOT provide them my previous salary. The range I gave them included a minimum $15K pay increase from my previous position.

From a quick google search, it looks like I would be asking for absolute top line pay, around $140K to $150K. However, I really don't know what my position makes nationwide. Should I just start at $150K and see where the hospital system blinks?

Yes

# ¿ Nov 6, 2021 06:26

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Wouldn't it be like a resignation letter or asking for higher salary? Why tell them any reason?

# ¿ Nov 18, 2021 13:34

downout: Jul 6, 2009

How do companies get the stocks for RSUs? Buy stock or issue new ones?

# ¿ Dec 12, 2021 06:16

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Shipon posted:

drat I should have asked in here earlier, I just finished the hiring process for an engineering (non-software) position for after I finish grad school this summer and in the initial screening call they told me the target range was 120-130k, and when I got the offer letter it was for 130k. They called me up the day before the offer letter was sent to tell me what the offer was - would that have been the time to negotiate or after I got the letter? It felt like it was pretty quick and on the spot and while I'm by no means displeased with the offer I wonder if I could have gotten a bit more (it's too late for that though I suppose).

If you agreed to the offer verbally, then it may be hard to walk it back and try to negotiate. If you didn't commit, then the door is still open for negotiation.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2022 02:18

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Magnetic North posted:

You're right that I'm done negotiating. I haven't responded to the second salty response. I can imagine a dozen different more professional ways he could have responded, even if I'm completely off my rocker. So there isn't much reason to elaborate any further on this particular job unless he comes back with something different.

It seems like the glib thread slogans of "Never say a number" and "Always Negotiate" are not so simple. Which makes sense, obviously, we all understand negotiation is complicated. This experience has given me a better idea of what I actually want out of this job search, and that PTO is going to be an important consideration on top of 401k which I was already considering.

"Always negotiate" is simple and nearly 100% true advice.

"Never say a number" is a lot more complex. I accidentally turned on linkedin open for offers setting or something, so I was getting recruiter contacts regularly. I just started asking "What's the budgeted salary?" or some variation of that. Their responses were pretty interesting. Some came back with a number. Others responded by asking what my expectations were, which sort of felt like it made my budget question blow up in my face because if I were really interested I wouldn't have wanted to "say a number". Since I wasn't really interested in these I took the opportunity, for a few of them, to throw out a very largish number (not obscene but too much for some). They all responded with "that's above our maximum". So if I were really interested that would have weeded out a lot of positions that wouldn't be worth going after, but it could potentially have anchored me low against a position that actually did have a lot larger budget.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2022 03:46

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Forcing you to do a job that you didn't sign on for is definitely getting into "gently caress you, pay me" territory IMO. Each to his own, but I'd be getting salty. This isn't the military, companies can take the voluntold stuff and shove it.

# ¿ Jul 13, 2022 20:23

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Democratic Pirate posted:

The 18 month job hoppers are always interesting to me since I�m absolutely not wired that way. Assuming a 90 day ramp up period and 90 days for job searching, 1/3 of the time spent at stop is fairly unproductive. From anecdotal observations it does seem to be a good way to make a lot of money fast, though.

I spent ~14 months at my last place and did very high quality work. I had good bullet points for my work when I left.

Parallelwoody posted:

Sure, there is lovely HR, and I believe a lot of HR is lovely because the typical evolution of a company is to have the admin assistant and finance handle hr poo poo. When the company starts expanding, the admin person becomes the HR person, who is used to kissing the CEOs rear end and does whatever they or anyone else in authority say. But when I read several posts in a row about how HR is lazy as gently caress and doesn't do anything, I gotta speak up because it's the same concept as "Well none of our computers have had issues for a while, why do we even pay IT people?" I get that it's generally an adversarial relationship, but I've always been pro labor and do whatever I can for the employees so they don't get hosed over. Like, a huge portion of time is taken out of my day to help people navigate things that I could just dump off elsewhere, so when I see things saying I'm a lazy sociopath for being in this field, when the whole point of it is to be a bridge between staff and upper management (people who take their own poo poo and write on the bathroom walls vs people so out of touch they think a 5% raise for employees making 12 an hour is great!), is a little insulting. And I happen to like puppies and kittens, thanks.

Also, this is fair. Even in the place I left after that short time and was salty about my salary and lack of raises for my work, I did not specifically feel HR was the ones blocking me; I'm fairly certain it was the cheap-rear end CEO and I doubt HR could have done much to change his mind. HR lead a lot to benefit the company morale.

edit: HR is a land of contrassts!

# ¿ Aug 13, 2022 04:54

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Anyone have any opinions on the usefulness and best way of making statements on a resume related to the value of work done? For example:

Direct:

quote:

... generated $4.3 million in revenue ...

More vague:

quote:

... generated millions in revenue ...

Generalized:

quote:

... generated high revenue ...

I think it's useful to put this info on a resume, I'm just curious if there is a preferred way to state it.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2022 02:20

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Lockback posted:

There's a resume thread that can expand, but yes. If the numbers are that impressive be specific. If they aren't without a lot of context, you can be slightly more vague but at a point too many weasel words tells me as an interviewer that the item is not true.

If you tell me your accounts were worth 15.3M then I believe you. If you say "A significant part of the entire revenue" then I think you were too far away from the accounts to know how much they were worth.

Thanks for the feedback, and Not a children too. I did realized about an hour after posting that they resume thread would be better. In this case I am some what removed from the specific details, but I'm working to change that.

# ¿ Sep 19, 2022 17:37

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Grumpwagon posted:

Looking for help with a negotiation of a sort:

My manager asked me to perform a project that is explicitly a team lead task. I'm a senior contributor on a team of 3, including the long-time team lead. While I was gathering information on the project, the manager directly said "the reason I'm asking you to do this is that I have no confidence <the team lead> would do a good job." This is not the first time the manager has expressed frustration with the team lead. From my perspective, the team lead is a good person, a good contributor, but not a particularly good team lead. They were promoted under previous (pretty dysfunctional) management, mostly due to seniority.

How do I handle this? Obviously, task one is to knock the project out of the park, which I have every confidence I can do. I'm not too worried about the interpersonal part with the lead, although I do like them, and it has gotten a little awkward. I'm happy for the increased responsibility, and had actually been applying for lead positions elsewhere (not due to unhappiness with the company, just looking for a new challenge).

I would consider it a pretty ideal outcome to be promoted to lead here. I have been given every indication this won't be the last time I'm asked to perform lead type duties. Also, I genuinely believe this is a good manager and company that believes in career growth and in promoting from within, as they have done so repeatedly on other teams. I'm not trying to be naive here, just mentioning what I've seen. If I continue to be assigned this sort of work how do I set the expectation that I enjoy this, but would like my title and comp to reflect the work I've started to do? When is too soon to ask for it, and how should I go about asking?

Do well on the project and start discussing the role and responsibilities with your manager. "Hey I'm being asked to and delivering projects that are at the team lead level, admitted even by you <manager_person>. Is there an opportunity to advance to a team lead position?"

That should say a lot about the intentions of the manager and, potentially, company. Also, I'm not sure where the idea that team lead is dead position or something, perhaps in some orgs. I've often heard it being considered a stepping stone for engineers to get higher IC or manager positions by having a role that doesn't actually include the full scope of people management. More of a technical management position that grants the authority to plan task breakdowns, delegate those tasks, manage the delivery of project(s), higher expectations of mentoring (e.g. 1:1s), and function autonomously without constant manager hand-holding.

Sometimes companies expect seniors to do these kind of roles which can be even more of a load of bs than just having explicit team lead roles that actually give credit, authority, and pay for the additional responsibilities above a senior position.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 14:53

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Dik Hz posted:

No you coach them in leadership skills and give them leadership opportunities regardless of their title in order develop management skills. And then stick them in a full management role if they display aptitude in those skills.

What you shouldn�t do is stick them in a �leadership but not management� role before you start coaching them or evaluating them for management skills. Doubly so if that role is considered a shoo-in for being the next manager.

This sounds like giving people responsibilities beyond their role but none of the pay.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 19:11

downout: Jul 6, 2009

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

I recognize I work in a weird space but it's pretty normal (and probably expected) to have people take on extra responsibilities without pay in order to get promoted.

Yes, I wasn't intending to remove this as a possibility.

Just contrasting the options of having a role between senior and manager that has some of the responsibilities with the pay vs. staying at a senior role and just being expected to take on the responsibilities for some indeterminate amount of time.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2022 20:13

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 00:11

downout: Jul 6, 2009

Dik Hz posted:

With that big of a gap you�re going to seriously wonder about retention

If you're worried about this, then doesn't it say something about your shop? State up front what you can pay at max, and then talk about how you're going to advance his career. It's all that's left.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2022 06:10

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

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