[Dune Thread] Gundam Idaho

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Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I think they could plausibly do a film version of God Emperor, but the only way it will work is if the runtime is 3-4 hours and it's a real-time 3D depiction of Siaynoq, in a similar style to BIlly Lynn's Long Halftime Walk.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 15:04

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 16:59

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

StashAugustine posted:

It could never be made but doing Dune as an in-universe documentary would be a really fun idea.

Probably wouldn't be that hard for a fan film- after all the Burns aesthetic is just voiceovers layered on top of panning photos. Just pan over the book covers while pretending to be Harq al-Ada.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2020 15:21

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Galewolf posted:

Thank you, people who enjoyed the translationpost

Some irrelevant tl;dr about translations of culturally significant books since I am procrastinating:

Translation of Dune was a massive event when Turkey was having a push towards westernization through potential EU membership. When a country itself doesn't have an unbroken literary tradition like UK or France, it really depends on having a strong translation (and later on, with the advent o TV, dubbing) base which Turkey had since the late Ottoman era (the Young Turks [Jeune Turks, not the podcast]] westernization but especially became prevalent after the founding of the republic in 1923.

Before the translation of Dune, science-fiction books were quite rare in favor of classic literature, I imagine this due to translating classics being easier as they don't have technical / science-y terms that many translators would have trouble using.

I think Asimov got translated before but that was super niche and didn't make too much impact. The real impact was Dune when it got translated in 97, almost at the same time as Lord of The Rings (which is another legendary translation) that literally jumpstarted the sci-fi and fantasy craze in Turkey.

Both translations were so masterful that the first edition of Dune books are now price gouged by collectors (not much in terms of dollars obv but imagine paying 150 TRY for the first book when min wage is 2250 TRY, a full complement would cost 750-1000 TRY) granted that someone is willing to sell. New translation of Dune utterly tanked and tbh a bit too late in the late 2010s�

I think the of Dune sold crazy amounts, also helped by the fact that the Westwood Dune game being extremely popular back then with the young people (like me, I was quite surprised to find out that people were using knives instead of devastator tanks and solar artillery ). Almost everyone I know bought the books thinking that it was about the Westwood game and be all like but being so immersed in the book regardless.

Success of Dune translation and LOTR opened the floodgates to both sci-fi and fantasy with names like Alfred Bester, Le Guin and many other following in a short succession and pretty much got me into reading even more (I loved reading before that but finding a tresure trove of new genres like this lit me up).

So, it's quite exciting to see a modern Dune movie is a real thing that exists now, brings me back to 90s and the first time my mind being blown by the first book.

This is utterly fascinating, thanks so much for sharing.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2020 21:33

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

god-willing we will not

Why not? The Bene Gesserit are the most interesting part of that whole universe. Why wouldn't you want more of it?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2020 00:40

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I've been making my way through the Wolf Hall trilogy during COVID while also returning to Dune in various ways. It's pretty fun to read a story that is set in motion when a concubine is unable to grant her king a male heir, while simultaneously reading a story that is set in motion when a concubine insists on giving her king a male heir instead of a female heir.

Has Herbert ever mentioned Henry VIII in any of his interviews? Or maybe that story is so suffused in culture that its in every storytellers blood, as it were.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2020 01:02

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I�m not surprised that everyone�s Dune rankings seem to be completely different. The only thing nearing consensus is that Dune is the best entry. But I�m always amazed that Messiah isn�t the consensus second best. It�s so similar to Dune, but with a few added (and cool) world building elements.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2020 00:04

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I think it's the most rewarding re-read. Some of the scenes in Dune are such a slog to re-read (Paul and Jessica flying through the sandstorm.... ugh). Messiah is so short that any dull moments are over rather quickly. And the Tleilaxu/Guild/BG conspiracy is just so fun. The stone burner aftermath might be my favorite part of the whole series.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2020 00:24

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Flakey posted:

I'm pretty sure the II is attached to the title, and not the name necessarily. A duke named Leto could have 5 sons named Leto, but only the one that inherits the title will be Duke Leto II. Source: I've been playing a bunch of CK3.

I mean maybe I�m wrong about this but typically the Roman numeral refers to the first name. Henry VIII was the eighth Henry, not the eighth Tudor.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2020 13:49

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

On the other end of the spectrum, I find the endless description of Paul navigating the ornithopter through the storm such a slog.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2020 21:59

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I just noticed that at the beginning of Dune, Yueh says �drat those Harkonnen beasts! Why did they choose me for their abomination?�

Pretty neat foreshadowing regarding the nature of Abomination and the idea of someone having divided, secret motives.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2021 17:50

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I don�t mean to derail but can you do Vigo the Carpathian?

# ¿ Mar 7, 2021 03:01

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I�m most of the way through my first read of Heretics. Books 1-4 were fairly consistent in their quality, but I�m surprised at how much worse Heretics is. Also: did Herbert create a rule for himself that he has to mention either a glowglobe, suspensor, or chairdog once per page? His approach to technological innovation and stagnation was so compelling through GEoD, but in Heretics it feels like he didn�t *really* want to adjust his world too far past Leto II. Other than planet names changing it basically seems like everything is the same, which is dumb.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2021 16:38

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

It just sorta strains believability that after the reign of Leto II the entire power structure of the old empire is still basically intact after however many thousands of years. Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilax, Fish Speakers, Ix, the Spacing Guild. They even still have Suk doctors! And they don�t all simply exist in name, they�re essentially unchanged. I thought the whole point of the golden path was to avoid stagnation...?

# ¿ Mar 29, 2021 19:06

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

KonMari DeathMetal posted:

Dear Dune Goons, I am not going to read the entire thread, but I want to read Dune. I know at some point the series goes from good to terrible, where am I supposed to stop.

I've already read like the first 9 pages, I hope I haven't gone too far yet.

I would mirror what others have said, and emphasize that if you enjoy Dune, the sequel is a great and much abbreviated follow-up that richly adds to the world and provides some much needed thematic clarity about the original Dune. It was originally intended to be published as a single work and it shows.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2021 21:38

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Inverted Icon posted:

I know the thread moved on, but that the society didn't change much between the reign of Leto II and the beginning of heretics is part of the point. How much has the basic societal structure Really changed between now and ancient Ur? How much Will it change between now and a martian colony? Not very much I'd say, initially. That's why the scattered are so threatening to the old empire. They're represent the new and unprecedented. How can other memory help with what is not in its memory?

It still sits weirdly with me. The basic societal structure between now and ancient Ur is.... entirely different. Imagine if the Catholic Church that we think of from the middle ages persisted more or less unchanged into the year 2700. It's inconceivable. That said, some of what Heretics seemed to be getting at was that in response to Leto II, the BG and the BT, through the use of gholas and ancestral memories, kind of made themselves into hives organisms not unlike Leto himself. So in some sense it would make sense that the motives and aims and goals of the BG and BT could be so unchanging over the millennia, but I just find it peculiar that Heretics contains all of the same entities, no more no less, and with a few political adjustments they all have mostly maintained their role in the galaxy. Like, just think about how different American is since say, financialization in the 70s, the internet, the tech boom, etc. That's just 50 years. It just strains credulity for me to imagine that any society, even one intent on stasis, could actually evolve so little in that timeframe.

I haven't read Chapterhouse but I assume it's more of the same as far as the spacing guild, IX, etc.

edit: I guess CHOAM and the Landsraad ceased to exist by the beginning of Leto II, but what else changes after that? The Fish Speakers seem only relevant during his reign.

# ¿ Apr 9, 2021 19:10

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Mister Speaker posted:

They're kind of sex witches; their main thing is the breeding program but I think there's some pussy mind control going on with their involvement in the Great Houses. The real sex witches show up in Heretics, I think - the Honored Matres. I don't recall there really being much sex stuff at all until that gross scene in Children where Leto and Ghanima are at the spice orgy and IIRC even some Fremen remark that it's weird because they're supposed to be like 15 years old at that point.

You�re also forgetting in Children how their was a plan for them to interbreed

# ¿ Apr 14, 2021 23:43

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

feedmegin posted:

I had always taken it as based on ancient Egypt, where that did basically happen. Thats what stagnation means. Bear in mind also that the survival of the institution and name doesn't mean its identical in function now to how it was in the past and I don't think the books give us enough detail to evaluate changes there. There has been a King of England for a thousand years, a Pope and an Emperor of Japan for twice that.

But I think the books do give us enough detail to evaluate whether there are any changes, because Herbert is foregrounding the same activities in Heretics that he does in Dune, implying that, for instance, the BG are still seeking a Kwisatz Haderach after approx. 5000 years since Dune 1. There's no discernable difference between the BG of Heretics and the BG of Dune, except that there's now a Mother Superior, though I'm unsure if that is something that changed or was something that Herbert was silent on in the first books. Same with the Bene Tleilax. In the case of the BG and the BT it does make sense given that there's a continuous consciousness that's keeping them on task over the course of centuries, but the rest of the world is unchanged too. And it just strikes me as odd that the monoculture of the BT, which is known in the era of Messiah primarily as the manufacturers of gholas, are still somehow making that same technology in Heretics. Granted, they're making synthetic spice as well at this point, but that's not terribly impressive after 5000 years. It'd be like if 1500 years from now there was a company named Apple that was still mostly known for making cellular phones.

Now obviously Leto IIs project was all about forced stagnation, but 1500 years have passed since then. Even if Herbert's supposition is that the dictates of the Butlerian Jihad would dramatically constrict technological progress, it strains credulity to imagine that all of the same players are still on the game board, serving the same roles. In your own example, you would admit that the King of England from 1200 has little or nothing to do with QE2, but that even more importantly, the context around that role has changed so dramatically that a King of England circa 1200 and QE2 are similarly in only the most superficial ways. Even the political and religious reforms in the time of Henry VIII represent more change, in the span of a single monarch, than we tend to see in these latter Dune books. In 1500 years there isn't a single entity within the Old Imperium that can lay claim to as much power and influence as those legacy bodies of the BG, BT, Ix, Spacing Guild?

I'm not saying it's unrealistic, obviously this is just a fantasy, but where the early books seemed so believable, I found myself feeling a bit irritated that Heretics bore so much resemblance to its predecessors. Why even set it 1500 years after Leto II's reign if so little has changed in that time? It isn't even a plot contrivance to allow Arrakis to undergo desertification, because Messiah/CoD/GeoD suggest that these processes can happen extremely rapidly, in a few generations, rather than a millennia and a half.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2021 23:28

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

exmachina posted:

Did you and I read the same book? First off, did you ignore the multiple characters saying "poo poo better not do this we might make another QH" like for example Schwangyu in like the very first chapter?

Secondly the two institutions you cited have been changed irrevocably by the Tyrant. The BT worship Leto 2! And the sisterhood is harder to see because they are now POV characters, but if you don't see a difference between the motivations and action of RM Mohiam and the Sisterhood of Heretics, I really don't know what to say

To your first point, my reading of this was that Schwangyu was an outlier among the BG in her opposition to the ghola project. That said, everyone is so siloed with the BG that everyone is operating off of limited info, and so it's probably a bit hard to be ideological about anything other than doing what you're told out of blind faith.

And yes, I do acknowledge that the BG and BT have been changed by Leto 2's reign. As I mentioned, the BG and BT are the institutions that are least capable of evolving because of the influence of gholas or other memories on their ranks. They're like Leto II in that they're basically a single evolving organism. My point was mostly that Herbert seems to distill some of these giant civilizations down into fairly simplistic machines that are driven by a certain goal, or technology, and it seems weird that it doesn't evolve more. Again, I grant that the BG and BT wouldn't change much in the post-Leto II era, but the mere existence of all the prior principles, and a lack of new players on the scene just chafes against my own ideas for what would've made Heretics more interesting. I'm open to being persuaded though. I've only read Heretics once, and while I don't think I'll ever revisit it, I'm certainly interested to hear opposing takes.

edit: On an unrelated note, I often hear people say that CHOAM is an analog to OPEC- did Herbert ever say as much, or is that just a common inference? I'm curious if Herbert has ever gone on record talking about the Dutch East India Company or the British Easy India Company, as those seem almost more similar to CHOAM in terms of its governing structure than OPEC.

Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Apr 16, 2021

# ¿ Apr 16, 2021 19:21

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Carthag Tuek posted:

i heard jared leto is gonna play leto 2 in the sequel

�We live in a society�

# ¿ Apr 16, 2021 21:00

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Mister Speaker posted:

For real. It's like they watched the space-folding scene in the Lynch film and said "let's make this even stupider".

This is the coolest fan concept art of the Guild Navigators:

The first one is a bit too Predator but otherwise that is dope as hell

# ¿ Jun 15, 2021 02:10

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I didn�t really grasp how the Harkonnen no-globe in Heretics worked. At first I thought it was the size of like, a house. I didn�t realize till later how large it was. If you approach it from any angle on land would you bump into an invisible barrier? It�s merely invisible, it doesn�t take up literally no space, correct?

# ¿ Jun 29, 2021 14:44

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Just reading Chapterhouse for the first time. It�s amazing how much research Herbert did in order to make the Fremen Zensunni religion seem so credible, and yet his research for the space Jews appears to have been looking up Jew in a copy of the Encarta lol. Literally on the first page of their appearance he starts talking about menorahs and the sabbath and pogroms.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2021 21:52

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

FBS posted:

I've read Dune a lot of times but I've never read the part where Baron Harkonnen flies around the room like Charlie Bucket

It�s consistent with the book and it looks cool, not sure what the issue is

# ¿ Jul 14, 2021 00:23

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

FBS posted:

SUSPENSORS, it said on the next door.

�Oh, those are fabulous!� cried Mr Harkonnen. �They fit you with suspensors, and the suspensors are full of a special kind of science, and this science is so terrifically lifting that it lifts you right off the ground just like a balloon, and up you go until your head hits the ceiling � and there you stay.�

�But how do you come down again?� asked little Feyd.

�You have a meal, of course,� said Mr Harkonnen. �You have a great big long rude meal, and up comes your weight and down comes you! But don�t try them outdoors! There�s no knowing how high up you�ll be carried if you do that. I gave some to an old Mentat once out in the back yard and he went up and up and disappeared out of sight! It was very sad. I never saw him again.�

�He should have eaten,� Feyd said.

�Of course he should have eaten,� said Mr Harkonnen. �I stood there shouting �Eat, you silly rear end, eat, or you�ll never come down again!� But he didn�t or couldn�t or wouldn�t, I don�t know which. Maybe he was too frightened, like a rabbit. He must be on the moon by now.�

I�m sorry the movie isn�t going to be based on some other book, that�s going to suck for you

# ¿ Jul 14, 2021 01:51

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Fuschia tude posted:

Yeah, he's possibly the weakest villain in the series.

There aren�t really any villains in the strict sense in Messiah, Children, or GEoD. Like, the conspirators in Messiah are in a narrative sense the bad guys, but when you realize what the effect of the Jihad was, suddenly you realize they are in the right.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2021 03:48

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

euphronius posted:

It�s been like 500 generations

It�s nonsensical to talk about who is descended from who at that distance . They are descended from everyone alive at the moment

I mean, I agree with what you�re saying in a real world context, but in the world of the books people seem to be following the Atreides blood line for like 5000+ years so they know very well what their bloodlines are.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2021 16:14

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Anne Frank Funk posted:

yeah, it looks like a wholly separate vision, with obvious signs of DV aestethics � la Arrival/BR2049

Saw a post elsewhere saying the opening explicitly calls this Part 1? Is that true?

# ¿ Jul 21, 2021 20:32

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Anne Frank Funk posted:

yes

famous last words

I want a Part 2 as much as anyone but I cannot for the life of me imagine how anyone, even Villeneuve, can film the sandworm riding scene and not make it look goofy as hell. It cannot be done. Also... how on earth are they going to do Alia? Just get a super precocious kid to read the lines?

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

and on every one of those posters it says 'it begins'

That seems like generic movie hype rather than a more firm commitment.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2021 20:46

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Feel like that trailer just hosed me like an Honored Matre

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 14:45

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Anne Frank Funk posted:

guildies in the background, there are closer looks in the first 10 minutes, but no faces.

I gasped, thanks for pointing this out.

Is this some invented scene where Shaddam officially passes off Arrakis to Leto?

Also who are those people who are fully robed/covered about 20 seconds in?

Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 22, 2021

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 14:56

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Anne Frank Funk posted:

both screens are from a new scene

I'll skip the black bars, but thanks for posting anyway

I like the way the guild heighliner looks. Also it looks like we'll get at least a brief glimpse at Salusa Secundus. There's also a shot that looks so clearly to be Paul calling his first worm, but clearly that can't be it.

Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jul 22, 2021

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 15:06

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I hate that same day streaming might jeopardize Part 2, but on the other hand it�s gonna be awesome to see this in IMAX on opening weekend and then watch it again as soon as I get home.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 15:34

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Groovelord Neato posted:

Unless they filmed them together like Lord of the Rings there is no timeline where we got part 2.

Ah yes, Hollywood, that famously sequel-averse industry

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 15:54

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

kiimo posted:

Warner Bros. has been desperate for a tentpole ever since Harry Potter ended and they have been trying to force DC into the marvel mold with very mixed returns. They absolutely want this to work out and have sequels and the only reason they haven�t announced that is because of Green Lantern

Yeah but WB is only the distributor. Isn�t the same day steaming going to potentially turbo-gently caress Legendary out of the earnings they need to justify part 2?

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 16:05

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

My unorthodox take on the book, which I feel is even more relevant for the film, is that Duncan and Gurney should�ve been condensed into a single character. I get that Thufir, Gurney, Duncan, and Yueh all kind of represent Leto�s privy chamber, but Duncan and Gurney just never seem to be differentiated much in my mind (sequels notwithstanding). Seeing the actors on screen definitely helps, but I just don�t think the narrative requires two characters for their roles.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 16:44

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Uncle Enzo posted:

Why did the Harkonnens have to lure the Atreides to Arrakis? If they have the money and military might to raise an army and move a huge invasion fleet, why couldn't they just invade Caladan? Arrakis is the most profitable planet in the galaxy by like 100x, was there ever a stated in-universe cover story why they were leaving? How come the Harkonnens got to keep Geidi Prime when they had Arrakis but Leto had to give up Caladan? Who got Caladan after the hawks left?

Basically they needed it to appear on neutral territory so that the rest of the Landsraad can look the other way (or be cowed into submission). An outright assault on Caladan would've probably broken Kanly.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 20:03

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Cacator posted:

Nah after BR2049 there's no way they're letting Villeneuve get away with another runtime like that. It's mostly likely under 140. But yeah main trailers are always meant to show off action.

Edit: beaten

Take it with a grain of melange but Google says it�s 2 hours 35 mins.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 21:17

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

I wonder if the golden armor is also gonna be a reference to the golden lion throne

# ¿ Jul 23, 2021 02:34

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Just noticed in the background of that shot of Paul as a gold ranger there�s a sandworm exploding out of the sand.

Also: does Paul use the word �dad� in the book? I can�t remember but it seems oddly modern in the trailer

# ¿ Jul 23, 2021 15:01

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# ¿ May 17, 2024 16:59

Jewmanji: Dec 28, 2003

Johnny Aztec posted:

One thing that gets kind of ...glossed over/overshadowed by other events is that the BG had a millennia long project completely just hosed all the poo poo up like a few decades from completion.

Jessica was supposed to have borne a female child, and then she would be bred to a Harkohnen. (Feyd, I think?)

and then THAT child would have been the KH. Raised, educated, and controlled by the BG.

Paul was very powerful in his own right, but he had to have been a failed KH. Very very close, though. Of course, the question is, was Paul, or Leto a KH, at all?

After all, while the BG were arrogant enough to assume they "knew" what a KH would be, ...did they really? One had never existed before.

Centuries, upon centuries of work, and it all gets a spanner thrown in the works starting with Jessica's act of rebellion with producing a male child.

The BG have a fairly strict interpretation of what a KH is, and Paul fits the description, he has access to both male and female Other Memory. In Heretics and Chapterhouse they frequently refer to Paul as the KH, and Leto II is simply the Tyrant- something beyond even the KH. KH isn�t like, a level you reach in an RPG, the KH was a specific individual. It was only after Paul that people started considering creating another one (i.e. Duncan)

# ¿ Jul 24, 2021 04:50

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