US Current Events November: D&D's Afghanistan

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US Current Events November: D&D's Afghanistan

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

FlamingLiberal posted:

We're going to be negotiating this bill until the heat-death of the universe

https://twitter.com/awprokop/status/1455237655495598085?s=20

https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1455235335957450761?s=20

Manchin is lying about 'deficit concerns' as well

https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1455239658896510979?s=20

Squeal louder, you little corporate toady.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2021 19:45

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 18:50

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

When Democrats don�t tangibly make people�s lives better and/or offer more than �I�m not the other guy�, it leaves an opening for fascists.

This is going to keep happening because neoliberal capitalism is wholly unsuited for handling the crises it has created.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2021 02:03

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DeadlyMuffin posted:

If you think Democrats have accomplished nothing of value in Virginia then you're either not paying attention, or too invested in your own narrative to see what you don't want to see.

You can argue that it isn't enough, but it certainly isn't nothing.

But sure, tell me how they would've cleaned up if only they'd gone Full Communism.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2021/03/03/democrats-controlled-virginia-government-for-two-years-heres-what-they-did/

https://vahousedems.org/2020/03/08/va-house-dems-celebrate-historic-legislative-accomplishments/

I don�t think they�ve accomplished nothing here. They haven�t gone as far as they should but they�ve delivered in a lot of good things. Seeing the Lee statue come down here in Charlottesville was a big moment for the area.

I was mostly referring to McAuliffe�s campaign and national level Democrats.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2021 02:47

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

ex post facho posted:

Any news on the ongoing BBB negotiations? We got a pinky-promise swear we'd see a vote by next Monday.

No, but we all know how this movie ends: the CBO score will be a pretext for the "moderates" whining about debt and not voting for the bill.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2021 22:31

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Mellow Seas posted:

The CBO score is anticipated to show a very minor deficit impact - apparently the tax measures in the 1.75T House bill are expected to raise about 1.5T, as analyzed by the Joint Committee on Taxation (another nonpartisan budget analyst organization).

(No, a very minor deficit increase - or even a decrease - in the CBO score will probably not stop moderates from whining about the deficit.)

I guess we'll see, but I'm not expecting much from the Democrats to be honest with you. Not trying to be a doomer; just realistic about the party and how it usually works. The bill passing would be great, but it's still woefully smaller than what should be passed.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2021 22:44

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

ex post facho posted:

Any reason why Bannon isn't in jail for contempt? What the gently caress is Merrick Garland and the Biden DOJ waiting for, exactly? It's been over two weeks.

Cowardice.

# ¿ Nov 10, 2021 17:46

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Electoralism is a Kobayashi Maru for the left. Refuse to play with one of the two corporate owned and operated parties and face irrelevance. Play along with them and you're neutered into irrelevance and please no one, because you're fighting a war on two fronts: one against a GOP who hates you no matter what, and another against chickenshit centrists in the party who don't want to "make waves" by actually helping the 'little people'. I don't blame AOC; it's bound to happen to anyone who tries to buck the ruling class on their turf.

e: To clarify, I'm not against AOC at all. She has been disappointing, but I think she's genuinely trying to do the best she can and the party is fighting her at every turn. The only constituents Democratic leadership (at the very least) give two shits about are billionaires and corporations. That's abundantly clear and has been for a long time. But anyone would be disappointing in her shoes; that's the problem.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Nov 12, 2021

# ¿ Nov 12, 2021 22:11

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Epic High Five posted:

I've always thought President AOC was a fun thought experiment but after seeing how things shook out with Bernie and to a greater extent Corbyn, I hold no illusions as to the likelihood of an actual leftist - even a wishy washy socdem - ever becoming President outside of something like a Huey Long running on a Republican line

The establishment of both parties would never allow either Bernie or AOC to come within smelling distance of the Oval Office. They're more scared of the left than they are fascists.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2021 22:51

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Covid 19 was/is the worst pandemic of our lifetimes that caused all kinds of ripple effects, including people going hungry and being evicted from their homes. During this crisis, the system was unwilling and unable to feed and house these people. We all remember the infamous 'bread line' pictures.

Some of that can be attributed to a failed steak salesman being in charge and not giving a gently caress, but why would a good system ever put people in that position regardless of who was in charge? What good is a government or a system that can't even care for people during the worst crisis of our lives?

# ¿ Nov 13, 2021 18:00

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

morothar posted:

The argument is the same as a week ago: people with degrees are a minority of the electorate, and relatively better off than the rest of the electorate.
It�s fantastically easy to portray student debt relief as benefiting a relatively small, relatively well-off special interest group with significantly higher average incomes than the rest of the population. And it�s not inconceivable that it will piss people of to little or no positive net effect for Democrats, unless policy is enacted that helps non-student-debt-havers in meaningful ways, at the same time.

Then without question, that should be done. Is this a question? There's no reason why we should pick and choose who we're going to help based on political expediency. Everyone deserves a decent, livable wage and the basic necessities of life, regardless of who they are, what they are, or what they've done.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Nov 14, 2021

# ¿ Nov 14, 2021 02:51

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

It doesn't help that voters want things but get mad when you spend the money

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1459920694532358144

And there's not much the executive can do about short term inflation, so we get to watch a slow motion train wreck between now and next November.

My gut reaction after looking at that polling is to go big. Pass the biggest, most expansive infrastructure bill you can possibly manage (pretend for a moment that ""moderates"" like Manchin and Sinema don't exist), don't give a single gently caress about "expanding government". The programs fall into place, people's lives get better. Suddenly, voters don't give so much of a poo poo about "expanding the role of the government" when it is demonstrated that - surprise, surprise! - the government can work for the people instead of against them.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2021 18:52

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

StratGoatCom posted:

This is the only play they have, and they are completely psychologically incapable of it.

Yep, which is why I'm going to be psychologically incapable of voting for such pathetic losers next November.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2021 19:27

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Kraftwerk posted:

Lol play me the world's smallest violin. These are just another batch of loving excuses... Do you have any idea how many times leftist revolutionary groups in Europe got absolutely clobbered before they got anywhere? You want to know what hopeless looks like? Try Russia in the 1800s, or even just after the 1905 revolution. The entire history of the socialist movement is written in blood and betrayal (often by middle class centrists who achieved their mutual goals with the left and promptly sold them out to the conservatives).

Almost a century ago left wing groups used to get jailed, executed or exiled on a routine basis simply for meeting up or handing out flyers. You can do all of these things in America with far greater ease than you ever could with organizations like the Okrana breathing down your neck and literally creating leftists organizations for you to join so they can then monitor and control you while you think you're fighting the good fight.

It's also a fact that people no longer trust said multibillion dollar media empire. Hence the rise in alternative facts and parallel media ecosystems where people dogmatically adhere to their own made up fantasy worlds. Do you not realize that the OG socialists had to contend with literally millions of peasants who in their heart of hearts believed in the divinity of absolute monarchs and had strong religious convictions? Like you don't have to constantly travel around under an assumed alias, in disguise, from safehouse to safehouse to hide from the secret police. That's what people used to do and they still fought. So when I hear "But the big bad media convinced everyone" I just hear excuses.

The real issue here is the left doesn't have an audience outside liberal urban/suburban circles and has been failing to connect with the working class since the 1970s. You don't have the ear of the working class... The GOP do. The left are like socially awkward teenagers trying to court some crush they like from afar without really knowing anything about her or how to talk to her. They stutter out something that at best garners sympathy but ultimately someone else with more confidence and a better understanding of how to talk to people was able to get that person while the teen wound up alone.

This is not a new problem. It is historically precedented. Socialists used to go to the same coffee shop as bourgeoise liberals. They hung out in the same circles, went to the same schools and were a minority of a minority of a population that predominantly consisted of agrarian farmers and urban workers. Today it's the same. A bunch of people who went to school with the MBAs and other college educated people who support the status quo and live like HENRYs and PMCs supporting the system, paying mortgages and dealing with the economy as it currently exists. One faction picked the right field to work in and paid most of their bills, the other found lovely employment and became radicalized. Unfortunately there's a lot more people who are either benefitting from generational wealth or have a really nice life where some form of food, shelter, entertainment and sex is available to them so they don't want to rock the boat too much by changing society in a serious way....

This is why the inflation talk is gaining so much traction against Biden. People at their core are ultimately selfish and self interested. They don't want their cost of living to go up. They wanna keep enjoying their lives such as they are, and only want to make modest changes and improvements. But the moment you try to take that away from them or you are made to APPEAR that way, your political future is cooked. Nobody is going to accept short term pain for long term gain. Not unless it's so blindingly obvious to them that it will benefit them in real ways. Everything the left is fighting for is too strange and abstract for the sleeping urban liberals who basically already have a pretty comfortable lifestyle to look forward to that they don't want anyone touching....

So that leaves us with the working class. Historically conservative societies were toppled by apolitical outrage from poorer classes who began to go hungry, cold and unhealthy. It was no coincidence that some of history's greatest revolutions often occurred spontaneously during poor harvests, great famines or tumultuous political events that heavily discredited the prestige and authority of a particular government. It's during these moments that socialist groups usually gain the upper hand if they seize the political moment and are able to convert the raw desire for change, revenge and outrage into some sort of political answer/platform.

The GOP have successfully done this for years because they are able to talk to America's working class in words and emotional overtures that they can understand. The left failed to do that around the time they stopped being a working class/social safetynet advocacy organization and became a collection of academics, students and well-todo liberals. Today's left embodies everything that America's working class hates from a cultural perspective... That doesn't mean you lost the working class, it just means you need to learn how to talk to them again and snatch them from the GOP as they have snatched them from the left when the Southern Strategy was launched... That's all you need to do... If it ever happens I would not be surprised if the suburban liberal contingent that voted for Biden suddenly become dedicated card carrying republicans again.

TL;DR: The state of the electorate today is a reversion to the historical mean where rural and working class people are now conservatives and culturally regressive while the urban liberals are agitating for change and unable to gain any traction outside of major cities. This isn't new, it isn't remarkable in any way. It will just require savvy messaging, outreach beyond just election seasons and constant organizing and work to find the message that connects with the working class....

I guarantee that an enormous chunk of the current "locked-in" GOP vote consists of poor rural and working class people with a deep distrust of government and government institutions who have support networks built from family and community rather than government and society at large. I think if half this thread ever actually met those people they'd immediately write them off as CHUDs based on surface level interaction. But dig a little deeper and you'll find dilapidated towns and communities that the world has alienated. They're people who have nobody to count on but themselves for the last 30-40 years and they're all suffering from problems like healthcare, poverty and alienation. The GOP have found a way to insert themselves in their psyche via cultural outrage and now the left just needs to win them back by figuring out how these people view the world and framing the material condition improvements in a way that jives with their world view. That's the secret sauce and it was a challenge the socialists of Russia and Europe faced in the 1800s-1900s and overcame to some degree.

Some day the US government is going to gently caress up in a bad way that neither party will be well equipped to cope with... For example, the GOP start some kind of skirmish with China and then lose a couple aircraft carriers and get forced out of the South China sea. It doesn't have to be that particular example but something like that will happen and it'll shake national confidence to such a degree that it'll be piss easy for leftists to agitate for another kind of government.

Some of this I agree with, some of it I don't. For example, I would reframe the issue as less "the left failed" to "the system is set up so that we have a monopolistic two-party system that not only is not representative of a vast majority of Americans but is apathetic to their plight". The GOP's talent is not talking to the working class so much as successfully building false consciousness through religiosity/culture war bullshit.

That's not to say that I'm not critical of the left. We tend to use terms that immediately turn people off - partly because they're leftist jargon that only we understand and partly because the propaganda against terms like "anarchy" and "socialism" have been so successful. Simple messaging revolving around people's lives not getting better and the government just not giving a poo poo.

It's clear, at least to me, that neither party is going to help. They're both creatures of and by the system itself. We're nothing but sacrificial pawns to them. That's why building parallel power structures with organizations like the DSA (I've been getting more active with my chapter, which is pretty active) is a key to building leftist power.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2021 23:30

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

I'm going to say something I would not have expected to hear myself say five years ago: I get why people voted for Trump. That's not to say that I have any love for the son of a bitch; I hate his guts for August 12, 2017 alone. But the same monster that is disillusioning chuds and bringing them into the arms of a Trump is the same one disillusioning the left: Capitalism. The corrupt, rotten-from-top-to-bottom system.

The difference is in how the two sides react. In general, Trumpers punch down at minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ, etc. and fall into the trap of cultural grievance. By being useless cowards and losers, the Democrats leave an opening for the culture war stuff. I remember in 2010 that one of the arguments of the tea party was that Washington/Democrats/Obama "wasn't listening". They were right! Few if any of the elites are listening to us or give two shits about us. Their wealth and power completely insulates them from the everyday life that we live. When you feel as though you're powerless and unheard, you tend to turn in desperation to whining about nothing issues like CRT and """""woke""""". It's a tantrum because you feel as though you have no traction on so-called "kitchen table issues".

If the left can find a way to break through that propaganda and talk to working class voters without "jargon", I think we could find common ground on many - maybe not all - the issues we're discussing.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Nov 16, 2021

# ¿ Nov 16, 2021 17:32

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

TulliusCicero posted:

They are going to pay lip service to racial issues while doing nothing about them at all that would intefere with capitalism, until the heat death of the universe

As they do with almost every other issue.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2021 23:19

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Bread and circus agitating over imaginary issues like CRT will always be preferable to the ruling elites than real change that threatens their power and/or wealth. That�s part of why Dems ate so useless on issues like this. They don�t care about fixing failing schools or serving the people in any tangible way; their job is the perpetuation of the party apparatus itself. If they occasionally have to throw a few crumbs to the proles to get there, well fine, but let's not go too crazy when there's defense spending to be done.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Nov 17, 2021

# ¿ Nov 16, 2021 23:33

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

VitalSigns posted:

Yeah for real, if you're explaining you're losing.

I still can't believe McAuliffe didn't just say "I hear you and I guarantee as long as I am governor critical race theory will never be taught in public schools" which isn't even lie because it isn't anyway and if Republicans want to accuse him of lying make them explain that they mean kids were being taught that General Lee owned slaves or whatever dumb poo poo they're mad about.

He wouldn't have even had to do anything; just keep promising that "I'm working on routing out CRT" and continuing with an agenda that unfucks the state.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 00:36

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Jaxyon posted:

Yes adopt the framing of white supremacists this is a good way to victory.

The actual move here is to ignore the debate entirely and blow it off every time it's brought up, while doing actual good policy and promoting the actual good policy.

What in the gently caress is going on in this thread?

That's more or less what I was advocating, but point taken about adopting their framing. Terry would have been far better off letting that issue die on the vine rather than "Streisanding" it with that ad "explaining" his position, but that's water under the bridge. Some of parents' concerns about public schools are valid and should be addressed and fixed.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 00:49

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Jaxyon posted:

Tmac failed because he didn't have anything useful to run on. And yes he should have just straight ignored CRT poo poo, he was never getting those voters.

Yes and those people are largely separate from seething mobs of white supremacists who are scared kids are gonna learn that white people are the baddies.

Agreed, and since neither party seems willing to address parents' actual concerns, we'll probably be stuck with CRT for a long time.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 01:03

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Apple apparently feels like they are losing the fight against the FTC's new right to repair rules and is trying to head it off at the pass by making concessions that allow users to repair their own devices, but only with tools and parts sold exclusively through Apple.

They are leaving in all of the programming that breaks your device if you use non-Apple parts to prevent people from "gaming" the system by using Apple tools and generic parts.

https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1460982830318727176

Capitalism is such a waste ~~of time and money on greedy, moneygrubbing corporations~~.

e: Summarized.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Nov 17, 2021

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 16:14

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Manchin okay with voting for BBB before the end of the year.

Still says that the paid family leave added back in by the House needs to be stripped out.

https://twitter.com/burgessev/status/1460996555859763205

His majesty has condescended to grant permission for legislation to be passed.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 17:18

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

selec posted:

Think the leftist pitch for America needs to be about Getting The Man Off Your Back.

The man makes you work before you clock in, or steals your wages and tips.

The man makes your doctor call some pencil neck insurance dork to see if he�s allowed to use his expertise to help you. What�s that loving desk working dork got to do with you and your doctor? Get that loving nerd out of here.

The man makes you go to endless HR trainings while you know your boss sexually harasses people at every company party (which none of the hourly folks get invited to) and then fires anybody who mentions the boss doing this. gently caress that! Fair is fair, hold the boss to the same standard you hold me.

The man sits by his pool in his second house, next to his third wife, while the only thing you got three of is kids to feed and jobs to work. The man then tells you you�re lazy. That you�re the lazy one!

The man tells you that you�re going to work until you die, but he retires before he�s even hit 55.

Get The Man Off Your Back is typically a right wing, libertarian framing, but it can obviously be put in service to a concept of freedom and dignity that would appeal to a lot of people.

But you gotta maybe hurt the feelings of some of those HR and lanyard types.

This is great. Like I said, I think there is some common ground between leftists and Trumpers. The stumbling block for both sides is the system itself, which enriches the wealthy ruling class at our expense. Both parties are creatures and beneficiaries of that system, so they're not likely to do much to stop the gravy train.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 18:12

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Willa Rogers posted:

Great point.

I've always thought it'd be useful to focus on transpartisan ideas rather than bipartisan ideas, and this would be a wonderful example.

That's a great way to put it. "Bipartisanship" has lost all of its luster in my eyes after the past ten years or so. Tired of having to surrender most of the good policy in bills to appease Manchin/Sinema types.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 18:30

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DarkCrawler posted:

Trumpers don't seem to mind that.

They may not realize the extent of it, which I think is why they get drawn into targeting minorities and immigrants.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 19:33

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Trazz posted:

They target minorities and immigrants because they're racist

They might gripe about the current system but they still want to keep it, because changing the system might benefit minorities

I don't disagree with you, but the latter part seems like a good reason to provide a living wage, guaranteed housing, etc to everyone. It's much harder to complain that those people are benefiting when everyone has what they need. Capitalism causes racism, which in turn helps to bolster capitalism by keeping the working class divided against itself.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 17, 2021

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 19:44

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Trazz posted:

Conservatives don't want "THEIR" tax dollars going to "THOSE" people and there is no further conversation beyond that(because, again, they're racist)

Well, it may indeed be the case that it's ideological but I still think the left should go for broke. No country can call itself "great" when there are people homeless and hungry on the street, and people are entitled to the basic necessities of life.

I'm not so naive to think that addressing the contradictions of capitalism will end all racism forever, nor do I think that "economic anxiety" explains all of chudism, but fixing racism/sexism/transphobia/etc weakens capitalism and helps to redirects all of that hate where it belongs: against the system.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 19:59

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Jaxyon posted:

Historically, these same people have fought against any of the good things that leftists should go for broke on, because of the chance that "the wrong people" would also get the benefits.

Going back to where you started on this, this isn't Trump suddenly instigating new racism that wasn't already there, this was Trump building on what has existed for a very long time.

The reason that leftists and chuds aren't going to find common ground is the racism, not the policy.

Certainly this isn't an impossible problem and racists aren't racist from birth or whatever, but you need to better understand the problem I think.

I have no doubt that all the lovely policing and discrimination against immigrants has been there for a long, long time. We, or many of us at least, are just more aware of it now. But I also think that there's a positive correlation between rhetoric heating up and an already unresponsive and apathetic system crumbling before our eyes. The country was founded on racism; it's not going anywhere anytime soon. But desperate people turn to increasingly violent and racist rhetoric because they feel like there's nowhere else to turn.

People like Kessler and Spencer? Those who regularly post on thedirndl.lose? There's no convincing those chuds. White suburbanites who screech about CRT at school board meetings? I think there's a chance of reaching them; I dunno.

e: Yeah, I think it's less a problem of understanding chuds than reaching them. But I fear that people think I'm being hopelessly naive, so I could be completely wrong.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Nov 17, 2021

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 20:33

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Jaxyon posted:

Why? They're not any less racist than others, an often moreso. They've got more perceived privilege to lose.

How are you going to reach them? I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's not easy. People lie about their motivations and nobody ever thinks they are a racist.

Honestly, I don't know for sure whether this will help fix it or not, but people need help. They need universal health care, a living wage, a UBI, guaranteed housing, guaranteed food, paid sick leave - all the things that, I'll admit, seem pretty impossible with the system we have.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2021 20:48

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

HonorableTB posted:

I'm wondering what kind of absolute chaos would happen if a democratic candidate busted out a primary debate answer advocating direct action and general strikes, then continued just calling for seizing the means, direct climate action, and mutual aid for the rest of the primary without regard for winning or even trying to win. Just signal boosting leftist policies as often and loudly as possible all the way to the convention.

Would this increase, decrease, or keep neutral the amount of support and awareness for leftism and progressive policies?

Also would this hypothetical candidate survive the primary season without getting Huey Longed?

Such a candidate would never be allowed to come within a light year of the primaries, let alone win them. Maybe that's not such a bad thing; I think the system is beyond repair and that if change is going to come, it'll have to rise up from the local grassroots. Politics and politicians is where leftism goes to die or get thwarted.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2021 04:09

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DarkCrawler posted:

I don't think it's centrist to ask the left, specifically, to take off their kid gloves, silk lined mittens and straight jackets that they insist on wearing because they're too scared to call fascists fascist because some of those fascists are related to them.

And I honestly think sentiments like this are doomerism:

Why is this hypothetical leftist candidate who doesn't hold back even relying on establishment Democrats for funding or workforces? Why do they rely on whatever media contacts the establishment has for exposure?

Erasure and ridicule? Media will show what will cause the most controversy, fights and outrage. That is why Trump got all the free media he could ever need. If they go the Bernie route and call you a class war wanting, conservative-hating rich-killer, good, lean into it.

The only reason why leftists get tripped up by the media is that decorum poisoning - they defend and defend so that the mysterious materially applicable Republican that they're holding out hope for doesn't get too scared, so they can't possibly be (gasp) socialist or whatever word they're scared of.

If the left can't even see a way to hostile takeover of the Democratic party, what the gently caress else is there? What is the endgame?

Because this sort of thinking and level of motivation will definitely not accomplish much harder things such as propelling a third party to national (or even state-level) relevance, and that is just if we go with electoral methods.

I can�t speak for what others think the term doomerism means, but to me it�s a form of nihilism: things will never get better so why bother trying?

That�s not what I mean at all. If I didn�t care I would probably not post on this thread at all. To me, it�s being real about a system that I don�t believe in anymore and I don�t think is worth saving because it doesn�t work for people who aren�t wealthy and white.

We make a mistake if our imaginations are limited only to the lovely, outdated American model of what we laughingly call �democracy� now.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2021 05:55

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DarkCrawler posted:

America, by and large is not a democracy. It is a rotten system with white minority rule on its center, where only power-hungry bastards who build political machines of patrimony and influence-peddling remain in power or those who exploit the hate the existence of such a system eventually breeds, be it those on top of the electoral math or not.

But it seems that the left largely refuses to recognize what it takes to triumph over such a system, and at least on the elected level engages in a fantasy of American democracy where simply saying the right things gets you power because Americans are deep down nice folk who will vote for social democracy as soon as we'll figure out the right buzzwords to use.

Why isn't the left using the literal hundreds.of millions in campaign funding to build machines of its own? Engage in patrimony and influence-peddling? Bribe the voters and key figures? Print out propaganda?

It is not like there isn't a historical precedent for this in America specifically, for engaging and organizing.large immigrant or immigrant-descended populations into their orbit through labor organizing and party control over critical subsections of urban areas:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall

Yeah, they were corrupt as all heck but show me any leftist movement that achieved anything and didn't engage in the same.

There is the rural version for contemporary example, and the far right has that on lock. Far left can do the same, only with union halls instead of churches and internet instead of talk radio.

Hate and fear, and this time with good cause (though when did the left in America not have one?) . If the FBI had not spent the budget of my own country literally waging war murdering the Black Panthers, civil rights organizations and associated groups, they would have been this for African Americans. And despite some of the rhetoric here, Biden ain't LBJ (a true bastard to the core) and whoever is running the FBI ain't Hoover. Times have changed and so has the face of the potential movement that could be raised by leftists playing it dirty.

There is only playing the game, or setting the board on fire and smashing your opponents' face in it, and leftists in America don't seem to be willing to do either. It is this bizarre mix of cynicism where shitlibs have made everything impossible but also almost buddhisr-kind of universal love where each and every Trump supporter isn't clearly a piece of poo poo.

It keeps astounding and fascinating me endlessly.

I agree with all of your points up to "playing the game". We're not going to vote our way out of fascism and white supremacy; they must be defeated by force. The system is rigged not only to perpetuate white supremacy but to frustrate the left and to channel our revolutionary energy into feckless, don't-upset-the-applecart parties that only serve to bolster capitalism/the system itself.

If the left is to build a viable "base" for itself, I think the key to that is mutual aid and dual power structures. By 'mutual aid' I mean helping all of the people the system leaves on the outside and doesn't give a poo poo about : minorities, immigrants, the poor, the homeless. By 'dual power structures' I mean that as capitalism continues to crumble before our very eyes, the hope is that the left's mutual aid institutions will replace the mechanisms of the state. I don't know if this makes any sense at all but there can be a middle path between "participating in a rigged, lovely system" and nihilism. It's not an easy path but it's preferable - in my view - to placing our hopes in a corporate party to maybe throw us a couple of crumbs if we vote for them.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2021 16:02

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DarkCrawler posted:

When I think about dual power structures, I am reminded of the ones in failing or failed states, fulfilling areas of the society that the state can't or won't.

If I think of any that have actually gained power and influence, they're the ruthless ones. That seems to always necessitate lovely things by those dual power structures, because power...well, corrupts, and an environment that necessitates the existence of dual power structures is a ruthless environment.

So if leftists are above engaging in lovely systems, what chance have they in an environment where you have to be lovely in SOME way to succeed? I would say relevant examples are religious movements, labor unions, revolutionary parties, political machines, criminal organizations and so on and the history of all the successful ones are filled with mutual aid, but that requires cash money so they're also filled with power-hungry bastards.

And ultimately, unless you simply want to help stall the wound and not change things, you will have to engage in the political power structure either way. And if there is a leftist movement that can actually achieve something from the START of engaging with the political system, it sure as gently caress isn't going to be a nice one.

I guess I am a nihilist in a way, but I just don't see how one can look at America and think that there is any chance of success without compromising a lot of morals.

I'm an anarcho-communist (a relatively new one who is still learning) so I agree with you about power and money: both of them corrupt absolutely. I think we're getting past - if not already past - the point where we have any hope of achieving our goals without being bastards. You don't win revolutions with decorum and clinging to the rule book (something most Democrats seem to utterly fail to grasp).

That said, I don't know that you have to necessarily have violence and be bastards to implement dual power structures. It could be as simple as opening up a food bank in your area that feeds people where means-tested bullshit on the state or national level fail, for example. At least that's how I have come to understand it.

e: Edited out a phrase by Sedisp's request.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 20, 2021

# ¿ Nov 20, 2021 22:47

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

BRJohnson posted:

He's talking about me, I took exception and still do to severing all Republicans from your life (were it even possible), and the idea that they are all willful fascists.

As do I. If I purged my life of all the Republicans or Trump voters, there wouldn't be many people left. Things that sound good on an online forum don't work too well in reality; you have to engage with people rather than making sure they satisfy a checklist of acceptable viewpoints. That's not to say that I have any tolerance at all for fascists and proud boy types, but they are a tiny minority despite their outsized voices.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2021 21:08

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

I live in the Charlottesville area and know someone who was affected by Fields' car attack, and even I don't think that everyone who pulls the lever for the GOP is secretly a fascist. I get where this is coming from but it's a really hyperbolic viewpoint that glosses over a lot of reasons why someone might vote GOP.

This is not to make excuses for GOP voters and what they excuse at all. I've never liked the GOP since I started following politics 20 years ago. No one is going to be won over to socialism or communism by conducting purity tests for "sinners" who have ever voted GOP in their lives.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Nov 21, 2021

# ¿ Nov 21, 2021 21:27

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

DarkCrawler posted:

I don't think they're secretly fascist, I think they are openly fascist. As evidenced by their vote and eager support for a fascist party.

If A) Are you a member or supporter of a fascist organization

Is too much of a purity test for whatever leftist path you have, good luck. That honestly is the only answer I can give, I'm not being snide.

I know, and neither am I. To me, though, a lot of this is a consequences of the political system in the US, which squeezes the entire political spectrum into two binary choices.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2021 22:24

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Willa Rogers posted:

Yeah; there's a reason "vote blue no matter who" became a trope as the Dem party moved further right over the years. Combined with "this is the most important election ever against the most evil republican ever" it's erased the fact that the party is the most secure it's ever been in its ability to spurn the left without recrimination, and they even have the nerve to further blame the left for any & all problems the party faces.

That's why I've come to the conclusion that the only answer is to spurn voting for Democrats at the federal level--not out of accelerationism, but out of pragmatism.

Exactly. The problem with VBNMW is that if the Republicans are truly the existential danger that Democrats paint them as for fundraising (and they are), then they don't act like it. A party, or at least leadership, that understood that danger would be using everything in its power to expand voting, pack the court/neuter the SCOTUS, protect women's reproductive freedom, and helping as many people as they can.

Instead, we get months and months of talk, bills being pared down to nothing, and pandering to gutless corporate centrists and attacking their left flank while Republicans gerrymander their way to permanent/semi-permanent minority power. It feels like an almost exact replay of 2009/2010 and the people who will be hurt the most by it won't be the elites in Congress, but most or all of us.

The change we need will come in spite of, not because of, the Democrats.

F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Nov 22, 2021

# ¿ Nov 22, 2021 03:42

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

One of the problems with the American left is that we allow ourselves - in general, not just people in this thread - to get drawn into theoretical, navel gaze-y arguments like "Dems bad?". That's not a criticism of anyone in particular but an observation. What is actually being done to advance leftism and leftist ideas? You can be the "purest" leftist with no GOP friends and family in the world, but that doesn't matter a happy goddamn if leftism isn't getting exposure in the real world.

I'm trying to take my own advice. I joined the DSA in the wake of August 12th but because I'm not much of a joiner, I hadn't done much with my local chapter. Slowly, I'm getting involved with them. Watching Non Compete and Second Thought on youtube and getting depressed and angry about the state of the country just doesn't cut it anymore. I read a really good quote on this lately: "Rather than accepting the things I can't change, I'm working to change the things I can't accept".

# ¿ Nov 22, 2021 21:26

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

VitalSigns posted:

Just catching up but I believe it was called the "Sister Souljah moment"

I think it also had other names like "Tough On Crime" etc

What was the "Sister Soulja moment"? I know it was a Clinton-era thing.

e: Never mind; apparently there's a whole Wikipedia article on it. I was just a kid during the 1992 election but drat...Clinton sucked far worse than I thought.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2021 17:12

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

Meatball posted:

I have my doubts theres going to be a next Democratic president. The next time Republicans get the trifecta (probably 2024, considering all the supression), they'll pass laws that basically mean you need the house to win the presidency; they will simply never certify a democrat as the winner of a presidental election ever again; they'll cite allegations of fraud and certify the Republican, gently caress the popular vote and EC vote.

If they win house majorities in the midterms, they're seating the republican in 2024 by fiat. Like what they tried to do in 2020, but will have enough votes to pull it off. If the dems sue, a 6-3 Supreme court will side with the Republicans and that's that.

I feel the same way. The Democrats are acting with the urgency of people who don't grasp the danger to the country because they're out of touch, and/or just don't give a gently caress because they'll be insulated from most of the pain. It looked for a few months like they had learned their lesson after the Obama years, but the summer and fall have brought a reversion to the 2009 mean: Democrats wringing their hands while Rome burns.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2021 19:07

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 18:50

F_Shit_Fitzgerald: Feb 2, 2017

skylined! posted:

Also real news

https://twitter.com/socialistdogmom/status/1463231523503722502?s=21

Am I reading this right - the fuckers were found guilty and will have to pay? loving good. I had been hearing chatter about a hung jury. Shouldn't have taken the jury more than a minute to throw the book at these bastards.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2021 22:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > US Current Events November: D&D's Afghanistan

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