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i think that everyone posting "no" or some variation of in this thread who also posts "transwoman" or "biological male" or "transgendered" should be threadbanned until they have even a cursory knowledge of trans issues at the minimum; in several cases banned for out and out transphobia OP Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 14:35
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if you can't get the most basic of terminology right, even after being told what you are doing perpetuates harm, you are just posting to poo poo on the minority you have a varying amount of discomfort and hate for. You aren't here to discuss the issues or the science, you're just here to be hateful. E: if you say yes and also use these terms please just stop. If you can't even get the most basic of things right - the base terminology - then you really have no business in talking about whether or not we deserve rights. I am loathe to compare gender to race but theres a reason you say person of colour instead of coloured. theres a reason you say black man and not blackman. the grammar matters and is very important. golly gosh. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 14:37
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Just Chamber posted:So trans woman is ok? Example sentence: "Trans women but not cis women" would be ok terminology? yes absolutely! It's an adjective, like "tall woman" or "florida man"
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Apr 14, 2022 23:28
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woozy pawsies posted:this is old but ive seen you make this argument before about wilks. 1: wilks has different coefficients for male and female. the reason women can compete with men using wilks is because the wilks coefficient adjusts for them being weaker. 2: the guy who came up with it is a sex predator and wilks has been dropped by many and they use DOTS instead (still different for men and women). herstory was literally a competition lifter, friend.
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Apr 15, 2022 04:34
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TheSpamalope posted:Trans women aren't biological women Hey Koos, this is the exact example of the thing I dmd you about. Do you seriously expect this to be engaged with? If you actually think this is not creating an overtly hostile atmosphere or is a teachable moment, well, To show good faith: Spamalope please tell me exactly how my biology did not make me a woman. Do you think I was not born trans? Please detail how I am not on the female peak of the sexual dimorphism spectrum with my lack of testes and slow release estrogen implants. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 05:01
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I'm a roman history dork; why would I not take the latin word. Koos can you not see how incredibly tedious this is and how me and others who have spoken to you can instantly see what sort of person they are?
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Apr 15, 2022 05:06
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Thank you
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Apr 15, 2022 06:35
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:There is no accurate indirect way of measuring muscle fiber type, you have to go in and take a chunk out. It's probably only scalable at the world elite level, certainly not for collegiate athletics. VO2Max is more predictive for distance events than either of those, but also requires laboratory measurement. And these are variables that change over time and with training, so they have to be regularly assessed. None of those other measurements you provided actually have predictive value in those disciplines, to my knowledge, though I'm only an expert in physiology for 5km+ events. I want to ask why you feel the need to continue to refer to transgender women as biological men. Particularly after being (indirectly) called on it. In addition to this you seem to ignore all the evidence pointed your way about how in a huge, majority even, number of sports trans people don't have meaningfully unfair advantages that are impossible for their cis counterparts to achieve. Do you have an ulterior motive here? It seems that you just don't like trans women in particular. It seems that you choose not to engage with any evidence to the contrary and want to hyperfocus down in on anything that will give you a foothold for why trans women in particular should not be allowed. Why are you doing this. Are transgender women women, just like cisgender women are, brake for moose? Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 02:35
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quote:Are transgender women women, just like cisgender women are, brake for moose? I do not think that anyone who refuses to answer this should get a seat at this table. If you can't answer this simple question, it begs the question of why not. Even if your answer is a no, thats still an answer.
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Apr 16, 2022 02:40
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mycophobia posted:well, they're not cis women Are trans women also women like cis women are women. BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I used the term "biological men" precisely once in this thread and I was referring to literally men - biological men who identify and compete as male. Slow the gently caress down. Then perhaps you should use the correct terminology instead of the dogwhistle. Cisgender men.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:23
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mycophobia posted:what does that mean? It's an incredibly straightforward question. I can't simplify it any further. Are trans women, women? If you can't answer that how can you hope to participate in good faith in this thread?
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Apr 16, 2022 03:25
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mycophobia posted:the best i can imagine what people mean when they say "trans women are women" is that trans women should be treated the same as cis women. but maybe you mean something else, so I asked Theres a difference between treating someone to their face as though they are a woman and beleiving them to be a woman. Its a question of whether you see trans as an adjective on the same level as "tall" or "short" or "fat" or "skinny" where all of those words do not place women in a seperate category when you put them in front of the word "woman". The same goes for men here too.
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Apr 16, 2022 03:36
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mycophobia posted:sure, i can agree with that. what does this difference consist in on the part of the person interacting with the woman? that they are transgender. like that the qualifier tall means they are tall. Does this give you enough yet? It's not a trick question. It's curious that you can't answer the very simple question of are transgedner women women
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Apr 16, 2022 03:53
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Theres no deep question here and the fact that you seem to think there is indicates that you think that trans women are not women like cisgender women are women. It indicates that you seem to think that these two subgroups have a different relationship to the main group of women. Is this inaccurate? That you seem to be treating this as some sorta gotcha is very telling. Please just answer the question: Are transgender women women?
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Apr 16, 2022 04:03
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And if you still can't and insist on finding some deaper metaphysical truth, maybe just explain it instead of playing this game of cat and mouse. If you can't be forthcoming with your views, why not?Koos Group posted:Miss Broccoli, please remember that we have a rule of assuming good faith, and this includes the assumption that other posters aren't hiding their views. This is both to create an environment of trust, and because the deep personal feelings of pseudonymous SA posters are not a subject with broad applicability in the world. If you have strong reason to believe someone is acting in bad faith, to the point where you don't feel comfortable or productive engaging them, you can report them. We hit post at the same time. I'll leave the post up; but sure.
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Apr 16, 2022 04:09
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I am curious why that matters. Why are you asking this? Do you want to have a discussion about the nebulous topic of What Is A Gender? Do you want to have a philosophical discussion on what it means to be a woman? Or a man? Maybe you can begin with defining what you are actually asking here. It feels like you are dancing around a point and trying to ask leading questions to get there. Can we not do the tedious dance please. What is the base question you are asking before you can answer the very simple and straightforward question of Are Trans Women Women. What is your end goal I do not understand Koos why we need to asume this person is acting in good faith when they can not answer something so simple. Why do we need to have this tedious back and forth before we can start asking if this person is a transphobe or not. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 05:27
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A woman is a human being whose gender identity matches the social and culturally constructed identity of woman. We are a social species and fit ourselves into social groups. If that is not concrete enough for you I challenge you to do something far more simple and define a chair in a way that captures every single chair to the exclusion of all non chair objects. This is a stupid tediuous game of verbal cat and mouse. Are you a transphobe. Are transgender women women. Why can you not answer that question. The question is not meaningless and if you think it is you need to explain in clear terms why it is meaningless before asking us to continue with this aimless back and forth. If you cant answer why you think the question is meaningless, and you can't answer it, it really just leaves everyone else in the room to assume you think transgender people are their AGAB. Koos, please exlain to me how it does not foster a hostile atmosphere to transgender individuals to entertain these discussions. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 05:35
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Minera posted:they kinda have a point, you are the only person delieanating a difference between cis women and trans women here me? I'm a trans woman, I am a woman like all the women I know are Minera posted:it's probably worth stepping back from the thread if you want to tie yourself into verbal knots to derail the thread from the original discussion. nobody here is debating if trans women are women, but you keep engaging people on that point. If this is aimed at me also; if someone disagrees that transgender women are even women it's a forgone conclusion that they will not want trans women in a category for women. This is a thread where a 3 accounts have been perma'd and a number of individuals have been punished for outright bigotry. You have a number of individuals on all sides who can't even get the base terminology around transgender people right; how is there any hope of a quality discussion if people can't even not use dehumanising language to describe a very marginalised group of people. If that first post was not meant to be aimed at me I apologise, but the second one seems to be which makes me wonder if the first is? To be very clear: The correct answer to are trans women are women is yes.
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Apr 16, 2022 05:57
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Minera posted:okay...? so the bigots were dealt with, you're lashing out and derailing the thread from being about trans athletes to being about trans women. it's a bad look, sis. I am not at all conflating all transgender isses with trans women. I am being deliberate with my question. You will note that specifically trans women has been what most of the discussion ITT is about. You will also note that nobody making this topic so big gives a poo poo about the trans man who competed alongside Lia and even beat her in some events, but golly gosh will they lose it about Lia. Can you name that trans man? I bet you know Lia's last name though. If you do know his name - do you see the point I'm making here? Do you think anything close to half the people so invested in Lia and whether or not she and other trans people deserve to compete could name the trans man who beats her? In this discussion topic "mediocre biological men" is a huge dogwhistle. This is what people insist on refering to athletes like Lia with. Do you not see the issue with people using inaccurate terminology here, especially when it overlaps with hateful speech? Do you seriously fail to understand how in a topic of minority issues, critising a member of said minority asking that the dehumanising language cease, is the true bad look? Why come down on me and not the individual who thinks it's appropriate to continuously just ask questions in response to something so base and banal as "are transgender women women". Again, this is a deliberate choice of question over other similar questions. Do you think its not sus that the answer to that question is "well what even is a woman" instead of "yes". Do you think that might indicate a very clear conflict of interest? Koos Group posted:Myco appears to be treating the matter philosophically. Nothing they've said indicates any hostility toward anyone. I'm sympathetic to the posters who have pointed out that the central subject of the thread has a widely agreed-upon answer, and isn't likely to bear fruit with discussion, so I don't see anything wrong with anyone going off on tangents. Do you not see an issue that so far all they have managed to do is continue to Just Ask Questions when faced with something that should be a fundamental agreed on truth before even getting to the topic of the thread? They are yet to answer what they are getting at, they are yet to make an actual point, all they have done is ask questions. By definition, sealioning.
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Apr 16, 2022 06:43
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woozy pawsies posted:Very important to bring postmodernism into a debate about sports inclusion and physiology. What is a chair? Does a chair have chairness? Does red have a priori redness? What is truth? The ridiculousness is the point. "What even is gender maaaan" when asked if trans women are women. The thing that predicates the discussion of whether trans women should be competing with women, and men with men, at all. If trans women are men then why would they compete with women? If you don't think trans women are women, it entirely undermines any possible reasoning you could have for not including trans women in womens sports. In a thread thats had a person banned + 30'd, and three seperate accounts perma'd, with many comments about how this thread is a honey pot, it's entirely reasonable to wonder why someone like myco is so invested in not giving an answer to the question that everyone else can answer in just 1 word. Especially when they will not say anything concrete, choosing instead to only respond in vagueries and questions. There's a reason why only one person has said its a meaningless question. Keep in mind this all started because I responded rather aggressively in frustration at a different poster entirely who continued to use harmful terminology - in this case they used the same words (with different meaning) as rabid phobes who participate in these discussions, "mediocre biological men". Myco jumped in on their own perogative to, and I quote, talk about the "ontological" existence of trans women in response to the "are trans women women" question I originally asked of another poster to make a point. Given the wider context of this issue outside of this thread, and the behavior of people within this thread, it stands to reason to question the motives of people who like Myco, can't answer the questions, can't make a point of their own, and won't explain the reasoning for why they are doing what they are doing Minera posted:sometimes a cigar is just a cigar Precisely. Sometimes a sealion asking questions about the Ontological Trans Women is a transphobe. Ash Crimson posted:Are trans women women is a pretty easy question to answer; the answer is: Yes And again, it does beg the question of why its so hard for myco to just answer. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 08:44
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Minera posted:it's absolutely possible to overreact to innocent posts. you can see it on the last page! yeah, that's the nature and the point of dogwhistles, but at the same time, if you actually read through brake for mooses posts, or read their posts in the thread, its quite clear what the intention of what they said was. it's possible to just correct someone's terminology without automatically assuming they are a transphobe and becoming antagonistic against them for no real reason. it's incredibly tiresome to automatically assume everyone is a bigot out to get you, both for your own mental health and for the patience of online discussion groups and mods, which is part of why trans threads have been so tumultous on these forums in the past, with people willing to apply blanket statements of transphobia across entire sects of the forum over the most petty poo poo and then demanding mod intervention until the mods get tired enough of it to just blanket silence the discussion instead. Note that I have not mentioned Brake again at all. My point in responding to them like I did didnt land, I will grant you that. Liquid Communism posted:Especially the Mumsnet UK TERF crowd. Not just mumsnet etc, it happened to Jackson at her confirmation hearing https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/03/25/ketanji-brown-jackson-woman/ Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 08:56
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Ash Crimson posted:But what is a human Someone who does, or does not, participate fairly in sports
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Apr 16, 2022 09:03
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Ash Crimson posted:Let's have a really dehumanising and abstract conversation about what being a woman or a man entails, rather than discussing the fact that we live in a climate in which trans people, and the greater lgbtq community, are being openly compared to child groomers in the Western media But have you considered that I'm not touching you? I'm not touching you? Im just asking philosophical questions that are likely to bear fruitful tangents? I'm not touching you??? Have you seen this nice chunk of rock I'm basking on?
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Apr 16, 2022 09:08
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Ash Crimson posted:The whole conversation around trans women is so hosed that we are hung up on a minority of a minority being involved in sports and whether they pose an existential threat to cis women, as if this hasn't been an issue that was brought up in the previous decades The very same arguments have already led to people self appointing themselves Toilet Guardian and assaulting butch lesbians, assuming them to be trans women. The group thats apparently the one we need to protect from the trans lobby turning into men.
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Apr 16, 2022 09:17
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Mycophobia beleives in the blanchard typology and wrongly asserts that ist has not been debunked. Mycophobia is a rusted on hard out transphobe. Koos will you please take this as proof that people who are not you or the mod team have a very effective 6th sense for when these people are being disengenuous shitheads? Myco is a transphobe through and through. Theres a reason they won't answer the question, they know the answer will get them probated. They are here sealioning. I hadn't looked at their rap sheet until just now, just to have that out there. E: Another one  This person think that trans women in particular are either gay men who become women to get more dick, or are straight men who transition to get themselves off. Is this enough yet to punish the sea lion Koos? Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 09:37
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Can not beleive that "fruitful philosophical tangents" are coming from the most hard out transphobes in a thread on Trans People Koos.
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Apr 16, 2022 09:46
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Minera posted:it's absolutely possible to overreact to innocent posts. you can see it on the last page! yeah, that's the nature and the point of dogwhistles, but at the same time, if you actually read through brake for mooses posts, or read their posts in the thread, its quite clear what the intention of what they said was. it's possible to just correct someone's terminology without automatically assuming they are a transphobe and becoming antagonistic against them for no real reason. it's incredibly tiresome to automatically assume everyone is a bigot out to get you, both for your own mental health and for the patience of online discussion groups and mods, which is part of why trans threads have been so tumultous on these forums in the past, with people willing to apply blanket statements of transphobia across entire sects of the forum over the most petty poo poo and then demanding mod intervention until the mods get tired enough of it to just blanket silence the discussion instead. Please peruse the new evidence entered on your earliest convenience, your honour
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Apr 16, 2022 09:48
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:nah they'll just probe you for violating the 'no posting about posters' rule I hope not. I hope he takes it as a sign that on minority issues, he should default to listening to minorities when they spot a sea lion branded cigar acting like a cigar. Ash Crimson posted:All you can is point out that this continuous "debate" only serves to harm the groups that are being talked about Myco thinks we're a bunch of fetishists, the harm for them is the point.
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Apr 16, 2022 09:55
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Ash Crimson posted:Like if you seriously believe in agp theory then go transition and let us know how that goes for you The funniest part about it is if you read blanchards writing, ESPECIALLY stuff that isnt academic publications, it becomes increasingly obvious that the man is projecting *hard*. Like just scroll through his twitter for long enough and you can't not wonder if reigning in his urge to be a sex pest is a daily occurence for him
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Apr 16, 2022 10:18
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Sharkie posted:Oh? Is he reigning it in now? wait is ray an actual sex predator or?
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Apr 16, 2022 14:45
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  I present to the court the true intention of these bills. This is from Australias save womens sports bill.
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Apr 16, 2022 15:12
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doingitwrong posted:
I want to correct you here. Transgender people's intuitions are very tuned for this to use your words. Most cis people never, ever think about the concept of gender or even really examine it/theirs. Transgender people spend a liftetime thinking about it because we are forced to just to be able to tell people like myco to gently caress off with the "its a fetish" bullshit in a way you lot will beleive us. We know. Koos Group posted:Mycophobia was advocating that idea because a trans woman whom he's friends with convinced him of it. It's not evidence of malice toward trans people, nor have I found any context or contradictions that would indicate he has not been posting in good faith in this thread. This is why we have the rule about reporting suspected bad faith rather than trying to call it out in threads, because it can cause discussion to turn to an individual poster instead of an interesting subject, and sows mistrust. If you would like to discuss the matter further, please PM me, or if you would like to talk about the policy in public, there will be a D&D feedback thread on Friday. I know myco is your ol' posting bud but dude this is bullshit and I'm not going to pm you about it or go start some other thread. They are a bigot thats done everything you said would get people probe'd in this thread. Everyone can see it but you. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 02:07
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I want to give my perspective as a non professional athlete. Before I came out I got good at cycling for an amateur. I made a lot of progress very fast because I was taking out my feelings on that bicycle. I am intensely proud of the gains I made. There is one particular hill where I look at my times on it and it makes me feel very good about myself. The first time I went up that hill I had to stop half way and nearly threw up. The second time I rode it all and nearly collapsed at the top, I barely made it home. By the time I moved away from that area I was doing that hill twice with ease and then riding another 20kms to go climb a mountain. That hill was steep to the point trucks were not allowed to even attempt it, despite being in a residential area. The obsession with testosterone levels is a dangerous and weird one. My body produced a metric tonne of it, before I went on blockers I was producing at the very limit of normal. Even after 6 months on blockers I was still above average and had to go on the stronger ones that make you want to kill youself as a standard side effect (the old neuter gay men drug, banned in america, cyproterone acetate). When doctors see my initial blood results they still take pause. I started going bald in my teens because of it. Should I have to lose those records? Obviously I can not do that now and I will never be as fit as I was then. But they are my records. The overwhelming attitude of every single cis person when I came out was "well that wasnt really you was it". Thats bullshit, I did that. Those are my achievements. That took deliberate mental and physical effort. I still feel the same pride looking at my old logs. Do I want them listed on the womens strava leaderboards or whatever else? gently caress no. No one sane is pushing for that sort of thing except as a reaction to the extreme rhetoric from the other side. In this sort of situation not listing them IS the acceptable middle ground. When I changed strava gender I got a billion QOM's and had to message support to delist them. But are they my achievements? Did they and do they make me proud? Yes. Do my current smaller gains make me proud? Yes. Is that not the point of athletic activity below the professional level? I am not going to say I had a healthy relationship with that bike but I know I'm very far from the only human on this planet who uses exercise as an outlet for emotional pain. I'm still proud of those records. They made me feel good about myself at a time when I really needed something good going for me. It was a great way to connect with my peers and stay healthy, the primary benefits of exercise that get talked about below profesional levels. You know what happened when I came out and every single person on earth suddenly had a vested interest in making sure I never touched a bike again? I stopped riding for years. It took away my enjoyment because every single person, every single time I caught a glimpse of the TV, every time I saw trans women mentioned told me I was a man invading spaces, my records were cheating, all of that bullshit. I stopped for years. I still can't go on rides with my cis girlfriend because in the back of my mind the rhetoric has taken hold. Never mind that I've always been athletic and she has not. I'm not allowed to do this, I'm only better than her because of x and y and z bullshit transphobic reason that doesn't bear out in the science at all. That poo poo burrows in our brains, especially when we hear it from birth, and double especially when after coming out it comes at you from all sides. It robs you of your joy, it destroys your ability to take pride in yourself, and people want to do this to kids. My cis girlfriend is currently significantly stronger than me btw. People want to do this poo poo to teenagers who are far more vulnerable and far more effected than I. The overwhelming majority of talk when it comes to the science in this thread has been aimed at the upper end of performance, at dealing with the professional end. But this bullshit debate impacts every single possible level. Going back to what herstory said very early in the thread Herstory Begins Now posted:It's doubly absurd because people hugely overstate the impact of hormones in basically anything that isn't literally just a contest of muscle mass vs muscle mass (which is actually very few sports). 95% of any sport is practice, coaching, nutrition/conditioning, game knowledge, and mindset stuff. It's not until you get to a very high level in sports where basically everyone is already maximizing those factors that individual hormonal differences are the determining factor. What difference does it make to let trans people play sports as their real actual gender? For the trans person it can be life and death. Thats not hyperbole. The often misquoted stat around trans people is that 41% one. 41% of living, ie they failed, trans people have attempted suicide in their lives. This is for all, again, living trans people. Its impossible to count those that have died. The real number, if we could include the dead, would be much much higher. The more support and more community a trans person have the lower this number gets. When they have supportive family and good connections in their community? It falls to nearly background general population levels. Personally, I've tried three times and had to check myself into hospital to avoid a 4th coming up on a year ago. All since coming out. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 02:58
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Woozy you are not a transphobe and you are posting a lot of interesting things but its almost impossible for anyone to have a meaningful discussion around it when the space is infested with people like myco or cool who are incredibly blatantly transphobic assholes the mods don't want to clean up for ??? reasons, despite them doing the whole "doesnt back themselves up or defend their points" thing that was promised to get people removed.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:06
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Honestly Koos it really does make me question what your personal views on transgender people are.
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Apr 17, 2022 03:17
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too long didnt read cause no links to evidence for claim.
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Apr 17, 2022 04:35
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Colonel Cool posted:Sure, here you go. It's easy to miss in the thread scroll. Did you miss the posts directly under it, and elsewhere? Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Apr 17, 2022 |
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Apr 17, 2022 04:53
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Colonel Cool posted:Checking the post under it... Are trans women women?
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Apr 17, 2022 05:31
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Colonel Cool posted:Yes, obviously. It's also not a question that's incredibly relevant to this topic. Given how the last person reacted to that question and furthermore the fact that three seperate accounts have been permabanned because of that question in this thread alone, its incredibly relevant. Do you beleive trans women are women like cis women are women?
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Apr 17, 2022 05:38
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To give you benefit of the doubt > 1) Males have substantial physiological advantages over females to the point that we consider it impossible for them to compete fairly in high level athletic competitions together. What about all the sports where its been proven that """males""" do not have an advantage are women are excluded because of sexism? > 2) We are starting to see studies indicating that trans women retain some amount of that physiological advantage after being on HRT for over a year (though certainly not all), linked numerous times in this thread. Prove that these advantages exist, because you haven't. Then prove that there is a real world case where this matters more than any other physiological advantage, notably Phelps lactic acid situation and giant wingspan.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:41
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