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khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
The weapon sounds on the trailer are weaksauce, you'd think they would want to improve that from doom 3's popguns.

Rupert Buttermilk posted:

Ok, so is that Feminist Frequency twitter thing actually legit, or is it some sort of ironici humour that I don't get because Poe's law?

It's the sequel to DOOM. If that trailer was somehow showing off the next Animal Crossing game, then I'd be right there with them, wondering why ANYTHING is dying in that game's universe.

Sarkeesian thinks videogames are too violent generally, which to be fair is kind of true, if you're going to comment on that then the doom 4 reveal would seem fairly logical. I get the impression some people are upset about this since it was posted here twice already by somebody, do people still get all worked about her?

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khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

A.o.D. posted:

The argument would be more fair if nonviolent alternatives didn't exist, but they do, and in significant quantity and quality. As a result, it tends to come across more like 'violent video games shouldn't exist', and I don't think that's a torch worth carrying.

To be perfectly honest I think you overestimate the prominence of non-violent videogames, neither me nor Sarkeesian deny they exist but just looking at most of e3s lineup so far its pretty clear that the various ways you can stab or shoot stuff have notable dominence. I cant think of any other medium on the whole where violent content is as dominent as videogames, comic books maybe?

Nobody is saying violent videogames literally should not exist but you sometimes get the impression that the predominence of violence discourages other types of mechanics and restricts what videogames can express and who they can appeal to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZM2jXyvGOc

Ill stop here because bemoaning videogame violence in an FPS thread is really dumb, especially since I just moaned about guns not sounding violent enough.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Jun 15, 2015

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Segmentation Fault posted:

That doesn't say anything at all about the gaming industry, and plenty of nonviolent games already exist. Complaining about the violence in Doom, saying that it's disgusting and ought to not exist is the exact same poo poo that happened two decades ago from people like Joe Lieberman. It's moral majority nonsense and everybody except Feminist Frequency's sycophants sees it for what it is now.


If we don't stop Anita Sarkeesian soon, she will destroy videogames as we know them!

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

unpacked robinhood posted:

You'll never be 8 and discover vidya games again guys

Bah, I was 21 when I decided to give Doom a go for the first time last year, and it was astonishing how well it plays compared to almost ever shooter today, its just so fun. Projectiles and speed buries hitscan and cover any of day of the week even with 20 year old graphics.

Related, I bought Quake for the first time in this summer's steam sale and I've got a really annoying mouse-look problem. I've been using GLQuake on my computer since it works better, but I can't enable full mouse-look, I can only move left to right with no up or down motion with the mouse. I tried messing around with the console, but when I put in +mouselook I get a baffling result, that changes it so that I can only move the view up and down with the mouse, not side to side anymore, basically I can have one or the other but not both. I've been able to play a bit but I keep on running into situations where an enemy is far above me and the autoaim won't target them very well, if I had full mouselook this wouldn't be a problem.

any advice?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

catlord posted:

Have you tried a source port? Either Quakespasm or Darkplaces is generally suggested.

Quakespasm works much better thanks :)

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I think I've done everything I can with vanilla Quake's campaign, are the expansions worth playing?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Minidust posted:

I played through episode 1 of Quake! Using Quakespasm and playing on normal difficulty, as recommended here. That was a fun slice of game right there. All the environmental stuff took me by surprise, like the way walls might move around or a stairway would kind of drop into the floor. And the Tomb Raider-esque death traps! There's this sense you don't get in Doom that the levels themselves hate you. Having a blast and can't wait to get into episode 2.

I just finished Quake recently, it can be a really quite a tense game, more so than most shooters its good at creating a sense of dread and the sudden appearance of enemies like the Ogres, Shamblers and Fiends can create massive OH poo poo moments.

On the other hand, without trying to be all :smug: "I'm good at Videogames" :smug: I didn't find it as punishing as some of the stuff I played in Doom, especially the Plutonia experiment. Quake's nightmare difficulty seems to be about the same as Ultra-violence in Doom, and there's never as many enemies on the screen as in Doom. As well as that some of the enemies just felt like more annoying versions of the Doom ones, like the Shamblers have basically the same attack as the Arch-Vile, but charge way faster so you can only be within view of one for like a second, I always just ended playing peekaboo with them, running out of a cover for a second to shotgun them once and then back until it died (which, with all their health, would sometimes take forever). Likewise, the Vore's have the same homing attack as the Revenant, but its practically impossible for it to loose track of you when it crosses a certain distance or to smash into the scenery, so again I usually ended up playing peekaboo before it could get its attacks off. I found that really slowed down the action compared to Doom, and not in a fun or interesting way, in Doom you can take on Revenants in the open and run around with their missiles following you that you can dupe into smashing into a wall or run across portions of a map before an Arch-Vile finished its attack, that doesn't really seem to be possible in quake so there were lots of times I was peeking around corners taking potshots at the enemies.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Douk Douk posted:

Instead it feels like this awkward transitioning period between Half-Life's nonlinear realism and Quake's linear surreality.


I'm a bit confused by this description, both Half-life games always felt extremely linear to me while Quake 1 seemed to allow for much more exploration and usually required more back and forth within a level in search of keys or secrets in comparison. I would put it under the 'complex, weird late 90s level design' heading, of which the thief games are the king.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jul 10, 2015

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
The thing about DNF is people really wanted it to be a good game. I always get the impression that its defenders are willing to overlook its legion problems because, after all that time, it would have been such a great story that the game that everyone was sneering at for more than a decade would come out, shut up its detractors and deliver the post-COD world a sly helping of old-school fun and humor. It something you really want to see succeed, just because of the story behind it.

Of all people, Yahtzee had one of the more interesting reviews at the time that goes through a lot of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi2xsKHKRUM

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I just got Quake 2 in the steam sale, is there anything I need to know with regard to good sourceports and/or mods?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I'm seriously baffled that the Steam versions of the first two Quake games and their expansions have none of the music included, how hard can it be? I had to download them from elsewhere.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

spongeh posted:

There's licensing issues with this. I'd like to get the ports replaced with something like QuakeSpasm sometime in the future, but I can't really say anything about music.

I thought that might have been the case, still, it takes so much away from the ambiance of the games. Quake is nothing without Trent Reznor's full sound design, the music is so good for creating that sense of unease, like something's really wrong about the places you're fighting in. I did notice that without the soundtrack there's sort of an overlay of quiet whispering in the background constantly though.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
So I've been playing unreal gold, and the enemies and weapons are interesting, but Jesus Christ this game has a really bad case of 'lovely Water level' syndrome.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

david_a posted:

Are you talking about Chizra Nali Water God? Because you better not be talking about Chizra Nali Water God :colbert:

You're drat right I'm talking about Chizra Nali Water God, hey game designers everywhere if you're going to put large swimming sections in a game then for fucks sake don't making your swimming movement speed like half as fast as your regular movement speed, especially in a fast paced shooter, I don't care about 'realism' in my interplanetary shoot aliens game where I can fire an energy rifle then shoot its projectile with another shot to cause a huge explosion. To this day it feels like the only games that ever realized that were the PS1 Spyro games (there they also had no possibility of drowning, which another thing designers should take on).

Apart from that there's also these annoying mosquito enemies that are really tiny and hard to shoot and there's lots of 'em, and the layout involves lots of dull, samey looking rooms without a clear path forward that constantly remind me I'm in a game from the late nineties.

Come on Unreal, you had me hooked in pretty well with the Scaarj, which are some of the most interesting things I've fought in an FPS, you better pick up the pace in the Dark Arena.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
So I'm almost finished Alien Vendetta, and the difficulty curve is a bit... erratic. Around the halfway point I got some levels that felt like they had more enemies than the whole of Doom 2, I think there was somewhere with something like 1300 enemies, as you might imagine my reaction was a bit :stare: when I saw the kill counter. Then the next level goes 70+ and it feels like nothing special.

Still at times it makes me yearn for Go 2 It back in Plutonia, there was one level set in an ancient pyramid that felt like a PS1 Tomb Raider level cut for being too confusing and obnoxious, there are levels where Arch-viles occupy the Roles of imps in the base game, and loving cyberdemons occupy that of a baron of hell or Mancubus or something. Currently I'm on this level, and its like the game is just saying 'you know what gently caress it, just die'.

Do people try to pistol start this WAD? I can hardly imagine doing it without saving within levels, let alone starting with a peashooter.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Woolie Wool posted:


Also Misri Halek, the pyramid level, is one of my favorite Doom levels of all time. It's actually mostly linear so it's a lot easier to navigate than it at first appears.

I suppose when I think about it it wasn't that bad to navigate, but there was some shenanigans going on with switches and doors that took me ages to figure out and meant a lot of back and forth. Plus at the end my time was so bad that the game mocked me, gently caress you game that level was gigantic.

Klaus88 posted:

Yeah when I hit one of those levels that dumps cyberdemons directly on top of you without adequate dodge space, I pretty much peace outed when it came to AV. It was a fun mod until it kicked the difficulty directly off the scale. Had to accept my limits as a doomer and realize I wasn't ready for it yet.

Oh man that was another thing, fighting Cyberdemons in tight hallways. Though to be fair I realized that you can consistently avoid their projectiles without too much movement by getting into a left-right rhythm when you get the three rocket timing down.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 4, 2015

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

drrockso20 posted:

Yeah it's based on an idea I thought up back in High School for a Horror Movie franchise that'd basically be a more serious version of The Toxic Avenger

Also fellow Goons, what "Modern"(2005 onward) shooter game(first or third person) do you feel has the best set of enemies, my pick would have to be the Locust from the Gears of War franchise

Honestly? Borderlands 2.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

drrockso20 posted:

I've honestly never been too big on the Borderlands franchise, those games are way too grindy in all the worst sort of ways

While the series has a lot of problems, which have been gone over well here and elsewhere, I really do think that in terms of enemy design its probably my favorite shooter in at least the last decade. A while back I was thinking about how modern third and first person shooters have settled into a fairly set standard of enemy types, games like Far Cry, Gears of War, the Tomb Raider reboot, the Last of Us, Uncharted, Watch_Dogs, Bioshock Infinite, Max Payne 3, etc etc tend to have some or all of the following enemy types:
-Basic mook who uses basic guns and cover.
-Sniper with a laser or some other marker that clearly shows their position from a mile away.
-Armored dude with a huge amount of health who can withstand at least one headshot and probably has a minigun or LMG.
-Beefy rear end in a top hat who carries a shield that protects him from all damage in front.
-Melee guy who runs forward to inflict huge damage with little regard for his own life.
-Crazy guy who throws Molotov cocktails and sets the whole place aflame.
-Shotgun fellow who tries to get as close as possible and probably has a bit more health and speed to make it easier.
-Every now and again they'll mix things up with a vehicle or an animal or something.

This basic set here I listed seems to be considered a good variation for any run-of-the-mill shooter, its keeps things dynamic enough without reinventing the wheel while also being vaguely plausible in a semi-realistic setting. And admittedly Borderlands itself has pretty much every one of these enemies somewhere in the game. But I've gotten so used to fighting similar enemies in similar situations throughout a wide variety of shooters that after a short amount of time things end up feeling awfully stale in enemy design, and that's where Borderlands 2 tries to set itself apart. Luckily for that series they aren't wedded to anything approaching realism so they can get away with a lot more and they attempt to subvert traditional FPS conventions and bring in elements of games of old such as doom or quake.

Let me offer a couple of examples, first are the Goliaths, which are meant to mess with players who've been thoroughly trained into 'Headshots=dead quicker', when you headshot these guys they transform from a run of the mill bullet-sponge with an assault rifle into a super fast melee rear end in a top hat that attacks everything, friend or enemy, can jump like the Hulk in 2003 and levels up to get ever stronger with each thing it kills. As well turning your perceptions of reality upside down and causing you to question whether everything you believed in videogames and, indeed, life was a lie, the level up mechanic brings in elements of that famous examination of Doom 2's enemies, in this case its to do with time management as letting a roided up Goliath hang around too long can end up creating a really big problem when everything else is dead. However, you can also use them to your advantage, since it can't tell friend from foe it can help in whittling down tons of enemies, and there are many situations where a single Goliath is unlikely to win before it gets killed, this can be a really good way to turn things in your favor in a hairy situation and I think its a good balance or risk/reward and time management.

Another enemy that has a similar thing going on are the Varkids, which are basically bug-like swarm enemies. At first they just seem like annoying little things that don't really pose a threat, but if you let them fester and hang around a certain percentage of them will transform into a cocoon to level up to a more powerful enemy. Again this creates a time issue since if you let them hang around too long they can turn into ever bigger threats, but the Varkids are particularly interesting because their tendency to transform is influenced by the proximity of other Varkids as well as the number of people playing, and each step on their evolutionary ladder creates a totally different enemy (i.e. Level two they fly and spit at you from a distance, level 3 they lose the ability to fly but gain a whole lot of armor and a very powerful melee attack, there's even a hidden raid boss if you let one get to the highest point on the tree). Overall they're just a really dynamic enemy.

There's tons of other things I want to touch on briefly, each enemy feels very distinct and its good the way you learn how to handle them in different ways as you figure out where weak-points are, the robots are particularly fun since you can shoot off all of their limbs until they're left as an abdomen trying to blast you with a single eye laser. Basic enemy types are mixed up with immunity or vulnerability to certain damage types and they seem to have a huge amount of variation in visuals, some regular types will be 'Midgets' that have a much smaller body but a regular sized head so your head-shots become more valuable. Other's will be badasses, basically mini-bosses that can appear at random but are based on a basic enemy type so you'll have to keep in mind the strategies that work against them best. I really think the enemy design in Borderlands is probably the best part of the games and it sets it so far apart from other games when it all comes together.

Unfortunately that has the tendency to break down after a while because of the grindy quality of the game. As you go up in difficulty, especially in ultimate vault hunter mode the little quirks and things become much less important compared to raw damage output. In that situation you're just shooting everything with your most powerful weapon to kill them as quickly as possible and everything can kill you in a couple of hits, it really removes the most fun and original elements of the enemy design and turns the whole thing into a grindy numbers game. If you do end up playing it I'd stay on the default difficulty, and maybe true vault hunter mode.

That was longer than anticipated.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 5, 2015

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Bathtub Cheese posted:

That was a really tedious carepost about a game totally unrelated to the topic of the thread.

Sorry.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I can't imagine playing it as such today, but was doom designed around being keyboard only first and foremost?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Zaphod42 posted:

This is a little late but holy poo poo, no. Borderlands has some of the dumbest enemy design and worst shooting mechanics of any FPS I've ever played.

Borderlands 1&2 are games that survive in spite of the shooting. They survive because of the loot, the stats, the RPG, the grind. And the color, the characters, the locations, etc. And I agree, those things are cool and kept me playing for several hours myself. But it was more like work that I put in to finally get a gun that didn't feel like poo poo, it wasn't enjoyable FPS action.

The shooting and the enemies are all extremely horribly designed.

The guns all feel like crap and mostly just tickle your enemies since they couldn't be arsed to come up with proper AI and just made every enemy into a bullet sponge instead.

TVHM is just stupid. I'm glad I never bothered with UVHM because I'm sure it'd be even dumber.

The shooting in wolfenstein3d is more satisfying than in Borderlands 2, much less Doom or Quake.

The problems with the game's enemy design are almost all down to the bullet-sponge and scaling problems, and I think this is in large part due to its grindy, RPG-lite mechanics. Its constantly trying to push players to pick up better weapons and items and to do that it increases the threat in the worst way possible, by just increasing enemy health and damage. Personally I found the real problems with the game is that the weapons don't match the ever more powerful enemies very well, the scaling is really out of whack. This is why the spongeiness gets terrible, and why you should never play on the New Game plus modes, they're just horribly balanced, if you want to replay the game just start a new character.

But still, if that wasn't a concern, I would still have to say that in terms of pure enemy design and variety the game can be novel and interesting, but it gets ruined by the leveling problems. Also it doesn't help that actually awesome weapons never loving drop. I found it acceptable enough when I didn't touch TVHM or UVHM.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Zaphod42 posted:

The enemies themselves may have variety in their appearance, but they all just stand there and shoot at you. None of them have any variety in their tactics really, and when it comes to FPS that's what really matters. Does seeing a red colored dude with more HP than the blue colored dudes you were shooting earlier do anything for you?

Now that's just not true, the enemies in Borderlands do try and dodge fire and take cover (I don't notice any serious AI differences between it and most other modern shooters). They'll even change their approach and behave more defensively or aggressively, or target one player over another if a high level enemy like a Nomad Taskmaster is barking order at them.

There are obvious differences when you're fighting the different types of wildlife, humans and robots, I genuinely don't understand how you didn't notice some of the huge changes in play-style between enemies, you can go back and have a look at my post about Varkids and Goliaths if you want, but as well as that you have Stalkers that can go invisible to try and sneak up on you from behind (and which try to get out of your FOV and go invisible again if they take damage), Threshers that can create Wormholes to forcibly draw you into their spiky hide, rats that will eat each other to regenerate health, can steal your loot and tend to be much more agile and difficult to hit than standard human enemies, Loader robots that can be de-limbed to deprive them of attacks and movement speed, Constructors that can barely move but will spawn lots of dangerous enemies if left alone, and surveyors that will fly around repairing all other kinds of machines (a pain to shoot out of the sky).

I could go on but I'll spare everyone the tedium, there's also the wide variety of elemental vulnerabilities and resistances, critical hit spots and whatever else to consider, there's a lot to criticize Borderlands 2 for, but really when it comes to proper enemy variety I can't think of any contemporary shooter that comes close to it.

quote:

Like, look at quake's enemies. There's no waste there. Each enemy behaves COMPLETELY different. The fact that they look different is second to the fact that one of them flies, one of them jumps, one of them crawls, one of them... shambles.... you know what I mean.

Like you said, the tactics of borderlands consist purely of "they have lots of HP and you have to whittle it down without getting hit too much"

Its like if you had a Doom WAD where the ONLY enemies were ALL CYBERDEMONS. It would be the most un-fun bullshit imaginable.

Mooks that die in one shot feel good. You as the hero have way more satisfaction dodging bullets to blap a thousand imps and marines than you do killing one cyberdemon that took you 10 minutes of dodging around a pillar while you fire rockets up his rear end. Big bosses are cool once in awhile to break the flow, but in general FPS games are about killing lots of dudes fast, not killing big dudes slow. I feel like this is a golden rule that gets largely ignored.

Its something in Destiny's game design (not a classic FPS but it matters to the discussion) that they're slowly learning. The original Destiny was all big bulletsponge bosses that you'd have to unload on for loving 15 minutes without any real tactics, just hide behind cover, regen health, fire bullets, hide behind cover, regen health, fire bullets, over and over until he dies. BORING.

Way more fun is you do something like make the boss leave the room for awhile and you have to clear all the little baddies and then he comes back. Or you give him an invincibility shield and make it so you have to kill the little baddies so the shield goes away.

Borderlands did on rare occasions come up with things like that, there was one raid boss that was invincible and you had to kill bad guys to create acid pools where they died to drag the boss through. That's a neat challenge, although can be tricky. But that's just one boss, and almost all the rest of them were just "its got a gently caress ton of HP, don't die and keep shooting" and that's it :downs:

I think that's actually part of what makes doom so good, that so many FPS games don't get right anymore. You need to run fast, yeah, but you also need to be killing huge hordes of enemies left and right. Its satisfying, it gives you constant feedback. Yes, doom is fast, but its not just the player movement that's fast, its the killing of enemies that's fast too.

Challenge that comes from quantity of enemies is more enjoyable than challenge that comes from one or two enemies with a huge quantity of hit points. There's a lot more tactically that can happen in big groups than with one big toughguy too.

Thats all well and good but to be honest, I've been playing a lot of early real 3d shooters (not 2.5d) like Quake and Unreal recently and I really found that the regular enemies in these games have had some of the highest amounts of health I've dealt with in a long time, and I assume that's because they simply couldn't handle having many enemies in a level at a time. Like in these games I don't think I've ever seem the onscreen enemy count go above 10, its a far cry from Doom I can tell you. In quake the most common enemy in the game seems to be the Ogre, and I've never played a game where the main trash enemy seems to have so much health. Likewise stuff like the shamblers are seriously beefy, going up against them without a Super nailgun, lightning gun or Quad damage can take a long time.

I don't think I can hold Borderlands enemy count against it in that light, we've never approached Doom-level enemy numbers since full 3d became the norm, and honestly it can have a pretty high number of enemies on screen at once. I think we both agree that Borderlands has serious problems with health scaling, but I a feel that if it were a shooter with better core gun feel, less constricted movement, reasonable enemy health and more balanced weapons its enemy roster would shine very well.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I can't get reelism to work, is it just drag and drop over the GZdoom application? I get an error messages saying 'Script Error "reelism_x3.pk3:actors/pickups/throwables.dec" line 351: "NOTONAUTOMAP" is an unknown flag' and also 'Script Error "reelism_x3.pk3:actors/d-dog.dec"line 201:invalid state parameters a_setspeed'.

Any advice?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Cat Mattress posted:

Generally when you get messages from ZDoom that such or such flag/property/parameter/whatever is unknown or invalid, what it really means is that the mod was created for a newer version in which this flag/property/parameter/whatever is known and valid.

If your GZDoom comes from the osnanet coelckers site, then it's very outdated. The latest official versions are here and development builds are there.

Oh ok, it more up to date and works good now.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

daft punk railroad posted:

http://www.othersidetease.com/strawberry.php

Meanwhile, from the Underworld Ascendant team...

e: oops, posted already

I wonder how much of SS2's dumb ending they'll ignore.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Keiya posted:

Quake, eh. If you didn't play it when it was new it's an interesting novelty but unlikely to become a favorite.


When I was going through the old classics, I found Quake to be very playable and overall much more fun compared to any of the build engine games. I just don't 'get' Duke, Blood and the like, they feel too uneven, clumsy and janky compared to something like Quake, Doom and Unreal, those three games are so smooth and playable in comparison. Oh well, it was probably something I would have had to be around for at the time to appreciate.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Linguica posted:

I watched it, it's 50 minutes of basic wiki info with a British baritone. Nothing really insightful.

:jerkbag:

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Segmentation Fault posted:


This is a radical concept but maybe you can appreciate someone and like the work they do while disagreeing with some of their viewpoints???

Its a bit annoying when I just want to watch a videogame retrospective and he starts moaning about SJWs out of nowhere.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Segmentation Fault posted:

FPS game


2000: Hitman
2002: Hitman 2
2006: Hitman: Blood Money

Uuuhhhh.....

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Bilal posted:

Just buy the game and play it dude.

Did you watch a run by one of the top 10 leaderboard guys who blow through 480+ seconds and make it look like a piece of cake? Because it's not and "straightforward" is not at all how I would describe it. You have to manically jump around doing crowd control while focusing on boss enemies at the same time and I have not played a game like this in a long time that gets your adrenaline going this intensely in such a short period of time.

"Watching" a run through of this game and assuming you don't need to play it would be like watching Hotline Miami and saying "huh, that's it? Not much to it is there, not worth playing then."

Seriously, basing your opinions of this game off of watching replays of some the best players is so dumb. The game is basically all about efficient crowd control, if you are absolutely not on the ball at all times and quickly deal with every threat as it appears things rapidly spiral out of control, you get mobbed and die. Of course that seems to have the effect of really good players almost making it look easy (though you could say that about lots of things). Its extremely, pants-shittingly intense when you actually play it, I think if you're one of the people who finds first person games can make them motion sick then this game will have them spewing chunks after five seconds.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Feb 25, 2016

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Zaphod42 posted:

Yeah game publisher marketing teams are hilariously out of touch.

See: Halo 5's publishing team flat-out fabricating an entire alternative storyline.

Haha, how did this work?

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Elliotw2 posted:

That's really odd to say since Dishonored is Thief with more magic.

The fact that its still true bodes poorly for thfourief

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
Sometimes I wish the chaingunner wasn't available to Doom mappers, or at least packing ten of them into a closet that opens up behind you so that they can gun you down immediately without you knowing what the gently caress just happened shuts down their computer and then blows it up.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

koren posted:

Do you have a specific example in mind? Assuming minimal cover, as a rule the denser the group of chaingunners, the less dangerous the trap will be as they will all start to infight. All you need to do is quickly move to an angle that limits line of sight from multiple targets as much as possible (so if they're arranged in a big line or pillar, move to the either end). In most cases there's usually enough time from the audio cue to shift your focus and throw yourself somewhere.

Nothing really specific I guess but I'm trying to get through Plutonia 2 without reloading any saves within a level. I just find it really obnoxious the way I, for sake of an example, pick up a key and several gunners teleport in and sap my health and armor extremely rapidly. They often don't really have any delay or are spread out such that having to deal with one lets another unload on me with impunity. There are other little things they do with them that's aggravating, like hiding them in alcoves with grates or vines covering them so that they are difficult to notice immediately, Plutonia 2 has a lot of visual noise by doom WAD standards which can make it less clear where you're being shot from.

I dunno, this is related to the way I choose to play I suppose but it often feels like with this particular enemy penalizes you extremely harshly for not dealing with them instantly, and the Plutonia mappers have always been massive fans of these guys from my experience. I'm comparing it to Alien Vendetta I find, I had some problems with that WAD but in retrospect I appreciate the way it used its monsters, mostly high level projectile users so if your fancy footed enough you could avoid most of the damage. I would assume this is one of the reasons that Spider Masterminds show up way less frequently than the Cyberdemons. Surprise Chaingunner hordes can feel like a lazy way of amping up the difficulty.

Zaphod42 posted:

Really? I guess that shows how much I really know, but I didn't think monsters of the same type were capable of infighting.

Hitscanners can.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Zaphod42 posted:

That makes sense, because its the projectile that remembers who did the attack, and I think melee attacks have special code for it, but then hitscan wouldn't yeah.

Although is that even really infighting or is it just like friendly fire? Do they actually turn around and engage each other?

Yeah they do, its pretty fun to get them to all go apeshit on each other.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Heavy Metal posted:

The final mission in Mass Effect 2 is pretty groovin'.

That final boss was groan worthy and pretty lovely though...

I thought that Armstrong in Metal Gear Rising was pretty good, he demands mastery of the mechanics, is pretty beefy and the whole fight is visually spectacular. Also it was really out of left field, in a good way.

Still I can't think of any FPS final bosses I've ever liked, does the Cyberdemon count? They feel less like bosses and more like particularly tough mooks these days given how they're used in Doom 2 and a lot of WADs, but they're pretty well designed within the context of Doom.

khwarezm fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Mar 12, 2016

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

dishwasherlove posted:

Can't believe that I missed that the prisoner in Unreal was female. Is it mentioned in game or is it just from seeing your model reflection in the fancy engine effects?

You can see it in a mirror in one of the 'HOLY poo poo LOOK AT THESE INCREDIBLE GRAPHICS, REFLECTIONS, COLORED LIGHTING, ITS LIKE LIVING IN THE MATRIX!' rooms near the start.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.
I will give Bioshock one thing, after listening to the Portal 2 commentary. The Spider Splicers were good at making the player look up.

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Elliotw2 posted:

Bioshock 1 plays kinda badly, and Infinite didn't really help the worst parts and hurt it in other ways. The idea of restricting me to two weapons and still wanting me to spend limited resources on upgrading and feeding them is dumb as poo poo.


The weapon system in Infinite was terrible and baffling. There are way too many weapons in the game and a lot of them don't have very good differentiation (i.e., the burst rifle is basically a shittier machine gun), but they all get upgraded separately and in many areas the weapons you might have sunk a ton of money into may not show up at all so you have to make do with a lousy ersatz you haven't been able to upgrade at all. This gets compounded by the two weapon limit since it severely restricts your options. Its so clunky, you can potentially sink massive amounts of money into making your favorite gun mega powerful, but half the time its arbitrarily denied to you by the combo of weapon restrictions and the level design, so its better to just ignore weapon upgrades completely and instead plough all your resources into vigors that you can switch between anytime, this also extends into prioritizing mana upgrades over health or shields . When I realized that even 1999 mode becomes a cakewalk.

Actually the health system was also pretty clunky, you have this compromise between regenerating shields and doom like health pickups, but the shields are so brittle they might as well not exist unless you devote every infusion you find to upgrading them (but like I said its better to upgrade mana so you can keep using the hilariously overpowered vigors) while your base health is also pretty bad, especially since you can't carry around backup health kits like in previous shock games but can only pick them up one at a time or hope Elizabeth happens to throw you one. On my first playthrough I found myself squatting down in corners with no health waiting for my lovely little shield to regen way to much.

I think that game was crying out to be anything other than a myopic shooter. It just doesn't feel like the right way to experience the setting or the story, if it was more of a traditional RPG, or maybe a stealth game like thief (they realized this with the second DLC pack), or even a puzzler a bit like Portal it might have worked better but as it is the gameplay makes it really hard to take in and chew on the setting, characters and themes.

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khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

david_a posted:

:aaaaa: My concept of time is probably warped because I was a kid back then, but Strife and Deus Ex being separated by only four years seems insane.

In retrospect things were a lot more exciting in the 90s when things were changing so radically. Doom to Unreal in five years? Crazy.

Yeah it nuts, I think you might be able to get away with releasing a game today that has the same quality of graphics as super-high-end stuff from a decade ago, imagine doing that in 2000!

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