Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Retro Games > Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

«‹›7 »

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

for me the things that makes doom 2016 not doom are two specific issues, level design and gated encounters. i know people love the arena thing, i think it's neat that the arenas are designed kinda like Q3A maps, but if I wanted to play painkiller or serious sam, i'd play those games. i like to run and also gun, i don't like a thing stopping me from advancing, i like to blast and keep moving.

the level design is the real problem, especially in the back half, where levels turn practically into that thi4f map comparison meme. i think its odd that project warlock's levels came closer to what i expect out of a doom game and that game wasn't even trying to be like doom. there are actually a couple of early D16 levels that are pretty great, and i had a really high opinion of the game until the last several hours and it came crashing down for me

# ¿ Jul 22, 2020 13:55

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 17, 2024 17:02

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i'm not very good at articulating my position but i maintain that doom 2016's level design is something completely different from OG doom's level design, and there's something about the 90s FPS era of level design that is far more satisfying to explore, to backtrack, and to find secrets in. tighter, smaller but denser, never aggravating to go back a couple of rooms to open a new door with the key you just got.

i wouldn't say D16's level design is much different from other modern shooters, it's just the attitude and playstyle are different

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jul 23, 2020

# ¿ Jul 23, 2020 05:49

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Rupert Buttermilk posted:

I haven't played any of the new Doom, but with regards to the level design of the originals, I think it all benefits, still, from the weird abstract nature of it all; the (good) levels were primarily based around the flow of combat and gameplay, with the task of making it look themed very far secondary.

Nowadays, levels and gameplay areas have to seem realistic, like stuff happens there when you aren't running around shooting stuff.

I love how little E1M1 resembles any sort of hangar. Sure, maybe some sort of aircraft landed in the big open area, but to get in there involves accessing secret areas.

Also, who puts a zigzag walkway with no railings on a pool of toxic slime? Who leaves toxic slime in a hangar?

None of this matters, the level is drat fun to play. Quake (1) is the same. What are these places? Who cares?

Are there any modern FPS games that go all in on the abstraction with little or no regard for realism? I haven't played Dusk, but is that one?

it's basically the difference between Mario 3D World and Mario Odyssey, one has brilliantly-designed abstract obstacle courses, and the other has to build challenges out of a more realistic open space, which is why the two different types of 3D Mario games appeal to different people and you get constant fights over which is TRUE MARIO

but like, I'm playing Blood and I'm enjoying it, I'm not concerned that the train station's layout doesn't make any sense.. it makes sense as a level. and then you get to a carnival level where the layout is completely nonsensical for a carnival but it's fun to look around as a game player

# ¿ Jul 23, 2020 15:07

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

it runs ok, there have been a couple of times where it suddenly drops to sub-30 for reasons i don't understand, might just be my computer though. otherwise it runs at full speed, haven't noticed any glitches/bugs

the reviews still mention the bugs though

# ¿ Jul 23, 2020 15:21

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

doom 3 was alright. i did not play it when it initially came out. i was very late to the party

a bad FPS is like... the scourge project, scourge outbreak or dead effect. afterfall insanity. i have played and beaten some real gems

deadfall adventures? not that bad

neon shadow? not that good

e: i would put doom 3 on the level of deadfall or project snowblind. it's not a classic but it's also better than... *consults list of horrible FPSes I have beaten* legendary, bioshock infinite, hard reset, homefront, lichdom battlemage, nosferatu, red faction armageddon, ROOT, section 8 prejudice, every shadow warrior, sin episodes, sniper ghost warrior, timeshift, FEAR 2, wrack, xotic, the bureau XCOM declassified, fallout 3, kane & lynch 1 & 2, HAZE....

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 29, 2020

# ¿ Jul 29, 2020 03:46

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Guillermus posted:

Red Faction Armageddon is not a FPS. The Bureau X-COM is not a FPS, Fallout 3 is basically a RPG and both Kane & Lynch games aren't FPS either. Sure, you posted some bad games there but putting FEAR 2 in that list is another wrong thing in an already bad post.

yea i get it, third person shooters are something else, but RF started as a FPS series so I think it's worth mentioning as a disapppointing entry in the series. FO3 is both bad as an RPG and a shooter

FEAR 2 isn't good and they hosed up the shotgun. FEAR 1 is fun, FEAR 3 is weirdly fun despite being complete trash. that's one i can't really explain

i've seen some high highs and some low lows and doom 3 is just kind of in the middle

as far as iD games go, RAGE is probably the weakest one but it still PLAYED okay (much like all the good aspects of RAGE 2 were from iD). granted i never played quake 4 but it doesn't sound like i missed much there

e: wait quake 4 was raven???? hmmm maybe i should try it

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Jul 29, 2020

# ¿ Jul 29, 2020 08:00

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i have a bit of a grudge against halo as a series for contributing to the shift towards the "movement is slow and labored" era of shooters, i know it's a little unfair (and halo wasn't the only one doing it) but i will say i did enjoy playing MP on blood gulch with friends. and putting grenades under warthogs. and trying to escape the boundaries of maps

like yea halo 2 is better than doom 3, obviously, (halo 1's campaign is pretty bad tho) but i have no desire to go back and play it either. i like my shooters not being in slow motion

i was forced to play midship a lot by friends. man they liked that map

e: my go-to MP at the time was still UT2K4 tho. especially assault mode

e: e: i'm sure doom 3 was slow too, i don't really feel like i need to go back and play that one either

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jul 29, 2020

# ¿ Jul 29, 2020 20:37

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i also feel like the sluggishness was some sort of compensation for playing on a controller, but I played through all of DUSK on a controller and it was fine. Bungie just really didn't trust console players to be able to move quickly and aim precisely (even with friendly hitboxes/auto-aim)

# ¿ Jul 30, 2020 05:54

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

retrovirus was an OK descent-ish game but that was about it for me until Overload came around

the 6DOF tag is ruined on Steam btw because of VR games, because technically most VR games use 6DOF for the headset even if it's just an archery game or whatever, so they just all get tagged 6DOF

# ¿ Aug 2, 2020 00:39

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i played unreal 2 a couple of years ago and it was alright, it definitely felt like a game searching for an identity tho

i keep wondering if i should get quake 4 just to see what raven did with it, now that we're years and years removed from the initial discourse

# ¿ Aug 5, 2020 06:20

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Groovelord Neato posted:

Also DUSK has much better level design.

yeah

also AMID EVIL's weapons should be much more fun than they actually are. the problem with magical weapons is you lose the meaty punch of conventional weaponry, but that can be mitigated if the magical weapons are fun in other ways... and I feel like the impaling one was the only fun one because of how enemies just fly off into walls and splat super fast. (maybe the enemies soaking up too much damage was another issue, made the lightning trident or w/e not as fun because you have to work at it to get a chain to go off)

# ¿ Aug 7, 2020 17:32

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

why is there a fourth postal

# ¿ Aug 11, 2020 15:20

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

remember when american mcgee made an episodic game for GameTap

e: can't believe they brought chuck jones back from the dead to talk about first person shooters. i know he's a proponent of violence from his tom and jerry shorts but I didn't know he was such a gamer...

# ¿ Aug 11, 2020 15:37

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

the straight line design of doom5's back end levels sucked

but it has some incredible opening hours so those were worth it

the second half put me off of buying 6 or (eventually) 7 though. also i never liked the closed arenas

it does feel like this is a topic every 3 days. ultimately there are a lot of cool retro-FPSes now so I'm good. ultrakill early fall, babey

# ¿ Aug 13, 2020 18:02

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Youth with a Skull posted:

As an aside, is there a legit, consistent way to get Dark Forces 2 to run properly with hardware rendering on modern machines? I've tried glide wrappers, patches, compatibility modes, guides, pretty much everything over the years and it always results in playing the game in like a 1024x768 window in the chonky software renderer

i mentioned this in the gdq thread but this eliminates the need for dg_voodoo

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1778723490

# ¿ Aug 21, 2020 01:48

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

oh huh. i just assumed viscerafest was this close on the upcoming releases tab because they had forgotten to push it back. nice

# ¿ May 14, 2021 16:59

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Groovelord Neato posted:

https://twitter.com/DaveOshry/status/1399723248414253063?s=20

they better not abandon the EGA color palette just because they're going 3D. needs to be way more neutral gray!!!

# ¿ Jun 1, 2021 16:14

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

project warlock was my favorite of the shooter renaissance and I can't wait for the sequel. i hope they keep the amount of secrets and secret paths up, and continue the dense doom-style map design. the routing you could do in some levels was fantastic

# ¿ Aug 14, 2021 20:04

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i wish the postal devs luck in their quest to one day find a joke

# ¿ Aug 14, 2021 21:15

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Overbite posted:

Try the demo for Severed Steel, it's cool.

Tried it during Steam Next Fest and it ruled

# ¿ Aug 15, 2021 03:50

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

For some reason I thought it was a lot further out, but

quote:

This was a busy week for Project Warlock franchise, as we're nearing the moment where you will be able to play the second game in a series. Between working on the current build of Project Warlock II and fixing bugs that tend to appear in soon to be released games, rethinking certain design choices thanks to supportive friends (hey, Dave!), working on the demo (what DEMO?), and finishing marketing activities we also took part in certain initiatives that you guys might find interesting

Maybe they're ahead of schedule? I thought it was scheduled for 2022 which would certainly not be soon in our hellscape perspective of time lol

e: OH maybe it's gonna launch in Early Access soon? The store page doesn't say that though...

# ¿ Aug 17, 2021 19:17

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i feel sorry for the project warlock 2 devs, they released a demo today, probably not thinking it was gonna be overshadowed by anything else

# ¿ Aug 19, 2021 20:34

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

I really liked Warlock 1 because I felt like it nailed the old school level design of small but densely designed labyrinths where you can either go through the keycard progression or find secret paths that provide shortcuts. I know that it's very Wolfensteiny but man... I can enjoy the Quake-era gameplay/design of most neo-retro shooters today, but the level design of games like Wolf and Doom I think were what prepped me for a life of loving Metroidvanias.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2021 20:10

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Arivia posted:

My understanding is that Warlock 2 is aiming for Doom - so verticality and polygonal, not orthogonal level design - but dense labyrinths, not Quake-style stuff.

Alright cool. I was a little concerned seeing the early footage because it felt like they were doing a jump to Quakeyness.. but as long as it keeps the relative feel of the first game with the dense maps, loads of secrets and fun theming, I'll be happy.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2021 20:17

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Mordja posted:

The Brown Awards for Being Brown.

HROT gonna sweep

# ¿ Jul 8, 2022 18:20

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

i'm through two episodes in Adaca, which is all that's available in the beta prior to launch (at least, I'm assuming the third episode is gonna be in the 1.0....) and it's a neat lo-poly half-life 2 (mixed with halo guns) tribute for a one-person effort with some issues. there's some unevenness with the level designs, some levels are extremely linear and some are open to the point of needing some signposting so you know what the hell you're supposed to be doing. the gunplay is a little weak, particularly the shotguns (though the art style probably contributes to this) and AI often is pretty dumb or enemies will just stand completely still until you get within X feet of them. some stuff can be tweaked after launch I imagine while other stuff might just be not fixable. there's no voiced dialog as well, it's all text. so the launch price of $20 might be considered a bit steep for the presentation and these issues.

but the gravity arm is just on point. if you liked to throw things at enemies rather than shoot them in HL2, this game fulfills the brief excellently. plenty of ragdoll so you can chuck a traffic cone at a person on a roof and they'll fling off. if an enemy is stunned you can grab their gun away from them which of course causes them to run away if they have no other weapons

mostly though i was glad i got it for free (itch.io queer games bundle 2022) so i don't have to be annoyed at the flaws that much. there's a neat setting with a society that's built itself around a giant crashed military ship, though the storytelling is a bit generic. the end of episode 2 is similar to the end of HL2 where you get a killing orb, and that's fun. i don't know if episode 3 not being available is actually meant to be a joke about Half Life 2 Episode 3 never coming out, or if it is coming but just not available in the beta

# ¿ Jul 11, 2022 16:36

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Fashion Police Squad releases August 15th

Gloomwood Early Access starts August 16th

Scathe on August 31st

ASKE, Selaco and Cultic also have August dates in SteamDB but we'll see if they release (likely Early Access for all) or if those dates get changed

# ¿ Jul 11, 2022 17:54

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

I don't mean to be a dick $20 bucks is not steep at all.

There's a baller rear end campaign full of bangin' tunes, hard hitting weapons, with a free episode 3 update in production afaik. Then there's the zone patrol mode, which I recently beat, which took me a solid 12 hours. I don't think not having voiced dialogue is a presentation issue either, it just doesn't need it. It's all made by one person who, having followed development for about a year and a half now, works their rear end off.

I was gonna make a big post about the game once the 1.0 launches this month but I figure I'll just do it now.

Adaca is this interesting cocktail of Half-Life 2, Halo, and Stalker, with some genuinely cool worldbuilding and lore that makes me think of Marathon quite a bit. The weapon sandbox is really satisfying, and there was a recent update that bumped the weapon inventory up to three instead of two (1 sidearm and 2 long guns). No, the AI is not complex but again, managing the expectations is important. I'm a total braindead moron and I never got stuck or confused or lost in the campaign.

The Zone Patrol is a whole different beast. It's like a semi-open world exploration/mission based bonus game that takes place after the events of the campaign, and I'm pretty certain the story that goes on there is going to set up episode 3. What's interesting about Zone Patrol is that it goes very old school with the design, in that you really, really gotta put the work in to figure out where to go and what to do next. You have a journal that you can jot down notes in, but I ended up getting one in real life for easier access, I took tons of screenshots of interesting landmarks and whatnot. You really do have to pay attention to clues and signposts. Again, I'm a dimwitted poo poo for brains, and even I figured out where to go and completed the zone patrol mode with only 2 unfinished side quests.

It's not without issues, but no game is so vv There's a ton of heart and soul poured into this thing and it's really fun and charming and engaging and deserves support.

It's absolutely worth $20 (or whatever it's going to be honestly, support hard working indie devs).

Main theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swuNeN4xKUc

I have not done the zone patrol yet, I probably will get to that later this month. The one level I got stuck in was in episode 2... it was a level with a big satellite dish thing and a giant wire separating two areas of the level, one of which had an area with floating objects and the other went to this gate guarded by turrets... the problem was I couldn't figure out what to do in the first area, I couldn't find the fuse box to open up most of the force fields, so I spent a while looking, also went to the turret area until I realized that there was nowhere to go there until the gate opened. In the end, the actual place with the fuse box was kind of tucked away. i dunno if I was just braindead myself but I felt like I combed the entire place before suddenly stumbling onto it.

And yeah $20 is not steep for a full HL2 campaign, I just wonder if the AI issues with lo-poly style will be a turnoff for people. I thought it was fine, similar to something like Wild West & Wizards (another one-person game I recommend). Although it could be a little better optimized, as it ran on Steam Deck with settings turned down but still had framerate drops to the 30s during larger firefights.

Oh one bug I noticed is that if you quicksave beyond a checkpoint, any enemies you haven't killed will still be on the map IN ADDITION to respawning. I got pinned in one spot and kept reloading my quicksave, only to discover the area was now crawling with a dozen dopplegangers. Luckily bailing and running away is a valid strategy to get out of a nasty fight.

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jul 11, 2022

# ¿ Jul 11, 2022 19:20

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Prophet of Nixon posted:

This also looks amazing, I need to get a new computer!

yea unfortunately it's not super well optimized, but I liked WW&W enough. it has a bit of an issue where there's very little enemy variety despite having a large open world, and its lo-fi nature makes quests not feel particularly special. but it's still decently fun and a chill game to play while listening to podcasts

# ¿ Jul 12, 2022 02:35

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Turin Turambar posted:

https://twitter.com/romero/status/1549382761303212033

should ask dreadxp for the dusk engine instead

# ¿ Jul 19, 2022 18:46

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Groovelord Neato posted:

It was made by the folks behind ELDERBORN.

yea and hyperstrange is also trying to brand themselves as a new blood of sorts. theyre also making blood west which is currently in early access and I've heard it's solid

and publishing Supplice which... well, it's not as solid (the level design was kinda rough), but it is a build-rear end game

# ¿ Jul 23, 2022 02:33

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Arivia posted:

Why is Supplice build-rear end? i thought it was Mechadon and a bunch of other doom folks making a GZDoom game.

i guess it's that, but i also thought a person or two from ion fury was on it

either way i did not care for the demo

# ¿ Jul 23, 2022 04:39

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

The Kins posted:

Week-long Retro FPS sale over at GOG. Highlights include every Unreal game from U1 through UT2004 for two bucks each, and the original Rise of the Triad for a lowly 59 cents!

thanks. i got Unreal Gold, Freedom Fighters, NecroVision & Lost Company, Rogue Trooper, and Journeyman Project Pegasus Prime (which isn't an FPS but it was on sale)

# ¿ Jul 27, 2022 04:10

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Tiny Timbs posted:

ymmv with the games themselves. The most recent official Quake source port runs perfectly, but HROT runs at single digit FPS.

also at least with the classics if the GOG version doesn't run, there might be a Linux source port out there. if it's DOSBOX, it'll depend on how GOG has configured it, some Steam DOSBOX stuff just doesn't work because it's tailored for Windows PCs, so like the whole 3D Realms anthology for example doesn't work on the Deck (but I'm sure if I changed from windows DOSBOX to arch DOSBOX it'd be OK, because they run fine on my Anbernic)

i have not tried EmuDeck but that might help with the DOS games i guess. i really don't know!! i'm just hoping non-dos game NecroVision will work fine OOTB

The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jul 27, 2022

# ¿ Jul 27, 2022 16:34

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Quantum of Phallus posted:

https://twitter.com/pripyatbeast/status/1552455358131539969?s=21&t=3itlmo7Xxov_FPXZ_QuABg

they're probably handling heretic, hexen and redneck rampage. that's my guess

# ¿ Jul 28, 2022 02:40

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

https://twitter.com/Retro_Blazer/status/1552849401009344514

Retro Blazer re-enters the ring.

the hell? what year is it lol. i feel like i heard about this game yeaaars ago

e: the gently caress it's been a full decade!!

# ¿ Jul 30, 2022 16:25

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

An Actual Princess posted:

just finish ultrakill before releasing it. sick of early access tbh

if you hate early access you probably won't get to enjoy many of the current boomer shooters for a while, lol

ultrakill, gloomwood, blood west, dread templar, viscerafest, hrot, cultic, extraneum, turbo overkill. all early access

even Adaca which is supposed to be 1.0 is missing its final act

# ¿ Aug 4, 2022 19:53

The 7th Guest: Dec 17, 2003

Pennsylvanian posted:

You just reminded me I need to perform my twice yearly check on Prodeus.

edit: Just did. lol.

if i had to guess which of those games will hit 1.0 this year, i'm thinking possibly blood west, dread templar, and viscerafest. hrot JUST released episode 2 but it's also been very gradual in its progress. i think blood west's plan was to hit 1.0 this year from the start, the others i'm just assuming based on their rate of progress

idk what's up with prodeus because they have only made small teases of content. they don't seem to be in a hurry

# ¿ Aug 6, 2022 01:34