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have the Palestinians tried voting? Or running for office, perhaps? If their ideas like "we shouldn't have to live in an open air prison", "our children shouldn't be gunned down in the streets by agents of an apartheid government" are so good, surely they would win in the political arena! All of this violence is quite disturbing and I feel that there is no reason, in my humble opinion, to resort to violence like shooting guns and launching rockets even if you believe very strongly in your ideals! What a shame. I hope both sides can quickly come to an amicable agreement.
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Oct 7, 2023 18:22
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Senjuro posted:Despite how a certain forum likes to portray it, I haven't seen a single post suggesting the Palestinians should refrain from all violence, only to avoid deliberate targeting of civilians. Are you aware military service is compulsory in Israel? It doesn't seem very fair to me that you deserve to be targeted simply because your grandparents moved somewhere and now it is "okay" to kill you because you have been forced into the military. I'm sorry if you believe very strongly in the Palestinian cause but unfortunately violence is never the answer. Personally I'd like to see a reasonable Palestinian party rise to prominence in Israeli government, where they will be able to pass mutually beneficial reforms.
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Oct 7, 2023 18:37
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Miftan posted:Contrary to popular belief, military service is not mandatory in Israel. You can choose to go to jail which is the vastly more moral option, despite being looked down at by most of the Israeli population (because most of the Israeli population is insanely right wing) I see. Surely the conscientious objections of these men and women have done a great deal to dissuade the Israeli state from engaging in acts of what must be clearly unpopular aggression. Perhaps the Palestinians can learn from their example, and not resort to this awful indiscriminate violence! Zeron posted:Settlements and displacements are ongoing to this day, it's not a distant past thing. It's a bit ridiculous to try to dictate how people with no recourses or options should try to fight back against active genocide at all, but "They should let themselves be killed until the people killing them VOTE to stop killing them." is certainly one of the most unreasonable ones I've heard. Every Israeli settler is actively participating in war crimes, their presence alone is considered a war crime let alone all the indiscriminate murder, hospital bombing, etc done on their behalf. Sure, it'd be much nicer if Israel decided to stop committing genocide and made peace, but if that's not happening. I'm sorry, but violence is never acceptable. As Israel is a democratic state it is incumbent upon the Palestinians to utilize the nonviolent vehicle of democratic politics to argue for their cause. The first thing they ought to do is raise awareness of their situation by nonviolent means. One idea could be to hold a nonviolent demonstration or march at a regular time, perhaps every Friday, for instance. That would go a long way to informing Israelis that Palestinian voices are being under-represented in Israeli politics. Failed Imagineer posted:Lmao. I'm sorry but it is inappropriate to "lmao" at the idea of people being killed, even (perhaps especially!) if you disagree with them. If your grandparents moved to Israel and you were forced into the military (or face jail time), how could it be "your fault", and thus make you "ok to kill" (a hideous string of words to even write). I personally believe that no one is "ok to kill", least of all people who were not able to choose where they were born or if their government was going to force them to spend time in military service!
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Oct 7, 2023 19:01
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I know a lot of Zionists who sound like you - the endless sarcastic mockery of anyone who thinks mass murder is awful - and it's not less obnoxious on this flavor. I'm not quite sure I follow -- whom amongst us does not think any sort of killing of fellow human being is awful? Why does someone deserve to die simply because their grandparents abetted an apartheid government's rapacious theft of the homes of a people they regard as subhuman? Even if they themselves, for instance, were literally the people evicting families from their homes so they could move in on behalf of a psychotic far-right extremist government, were they not simply acting in their rational self-interest? Why should they deserve to die? That you continue to live in their (or their grandparents', as it were), even if it is complicity in the genocidal destruction of a people who have had a boot on their necks for generations, ought not make you a target of violence! No, the murder of anyone -- "civilian" (whatever that loaded term might mean!) or otherwise is simply and inarguably morally wrong. I'm sorry if you are trapped within an open air prison run by one of, perhaps the singular, most vile and despicable far-right government run by out-and-out genocidal lunatics who have waged a decades long campaign to eradicate you and yours from the face of the earth for the crime of having lived in a place they have decided is theirs -- but resorting to violence simply cannot be tolerated!
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Oct 7, 2023 19:19
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zer0spunk posted:yeah we get it, you advocate for murder, but with more steps you think are clever but in reality are just incredibly grating. fantastic Pardon me, but I have been vociferously advocating against murder, and to misconstrue my arguments ITT is a violation of D&D's rules and I ask you to refrain from doing so in the future.
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Oct 7, 2023 19:30
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Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1710738576915239401 Certainly every responsible Palestinian adult by now has a travel permit, so it should not be too great of an issue for a nonviolent Palestinian to travel to, for example, the West Bank or East Jerusalem and stay with family and friends, or perhaps in a hotel or one of Israel's many Airbnb rental units until this blows over. If they're not engaging in this despicable Hamas-led terrorist violence, they should have nothing to worry about (aside from perhaps their weekend plans, unfortunately!)
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Oct 7, 2023 21:07
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Iamgoofball posted:get better material imho, low effort LARPing as the world's dumbest centrist stopped being funny after the first post, this is not your best shitposting work and just comes off as getting cheap laughs in at the horrifying genocide of the Palestinian people at the hands of a fascist ethnostate I'm sorry, but I simply cannot condone the indiscriminate Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians, many of whom have done nothing wrong (and it would still be wrong to harm them if they did anything, as they are civilians!). I'll have you know that there are goons posting in this very thread that are under direct threat from Hamas-led violence and to condone that violence in any way is to wish harm upon our fellow goons and is completely against the rules in D&D and Something Awful in general. If your stance is that Palestinian violence against the Israelis that have brutally oppressed, tortured, maimed, murdered, raped, stolen from, debased, shamed, humiliated, mocked, and otherwise devastated them for generations is in any way inevitable, understandable, or -- heaven forfend -- justified I must disagree in the strongest possible terms
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Oct 7, 2023 22:33
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Mooseontheloose posted:I tend to stay out of I/P discussions so forgiveness going forward. Seemingly, all the news foreign policy wise coming from SA, Israel, and The United States was that they were getting close to some sort of agreement to move a peace process forward and I, maybe naively, assumed that the Palestinian's were communicating to someone in these talks. An action like this basically sets back any peace agreement for years? decades? I just don't understand the play here. Hear, hear! I cannot understand why the Palestinians would so grievously sabotage the road to peace. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Palestinians, perhaps all of them, would be excited to flourish under an Israeli government that recognized their hardships. Now they've gone and not just upset the process, but soured international relations against them and driven the US even further into bonhomie with the right-wing Netanyahu government. For a people that claim to want peace, this plan of action is just mind-boggling! My only thought is that the craven terrorists of Hamas are so desperate for power (against the wishes of the majority of Palestinians, no doubt) that they have struck at this moment to intentionally derail talks with Israel and the United States of America. I just hope that the Israeli government, conservative as they are, can still overlook this admittedly major setback and resume peace talks post haste. They've already established safe zones for law-abiding Palestinians as they begin their retaliatory strikes against Hamas-infested civilian infrastructure, so I don't believe my hope is too farfetched. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 8, 2023 01:13
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zer0spunk posted:There's a 0 chance they don't run a ground invasion in gaza on sunday, so all you bloodlust weirdoes, this is what this repeating cycle begets Absolutely agreed, Hamas fully understood that the globally-recognized, (unfortunately, perhaps!) legitimate Israeli government would retaliate with more and greater violence, and still committed those acts of terror. They are fully responsible for instigating yet another cycle of hideous violence, and frankly the responsibility for any Palestinian death that occurs in the hours, days, weeks, months, and years to come as a response towards to what happened today rests squarely on their (and other violent Palestinian groups') shoulders. e: Exactly. They understood what would happen yet saw fit to begin anew the cycle of violence. Absolutely shameful. VVVV Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Oct 8, 2023 |
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Oct 8, 2023 04:04
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If you do want to calculate the correct amount of finger-wagging to level at HAMAS you should understand that, like America and 9/11, blame for the deaths of the settlers and ravers lies ultimately with the apartheid Zionist entity and its abettors in the west. They created the political environment that gave rise to (necessitated, really) HAMAS as well as political and material support, albeit in roundabout or clandestine ways. No doubt that some fraction of blame lies with the actual persons that pulled the triggers, but attempting to determine and assign that blame seems -- even if we weren't on the 22nd day of an ongoing genocide against the people of Palestine -- seems like a waste of time. Now, particularly, it seems absolutely ghoulish. So much so that, in my estimation, still continuing to argue about it would be at cross-purposes with any goal except to try to distract and confuse on the behalf of the apartheid regime as amateur (?) propagandists. Just my opinion, though! For me, personally, I can not bring myself to condemn the HAMAS freedom fighters, even if I were to disagree with their methods, considering they are Palestine's only means of striking back against the depraved fascists that build and operate their concentration camp. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 30, 2023 03:44
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:A group of people slaughter hundreds of other people at a dance party. Why? Because they're "Jews" or "settlers" or "Zionists," the "thinking" goes. And we, the "Palestinians" or "Arabs" or "Muslims," are oppressed by them. The "Jews" are responsible. We kill them. The Israeli response then says "the Palestinians" have "only themselves to blame" for allowing themselves to be ruled by Hamas, and behaving as though two million people in Gaza or all Palestinians are responsible, which is a form of "thinking" that they know to be at the center of anti-Semitism too and an illegitimate justification for wide-scale violence which Israel is now engaged in. And even if I was on the other side of the world when the whole thing happened, any disagreement with the underlying moral ontology can only be to stand in solidarity with and further the annihilation of the other depending on who's responding. But I hope you'll admit that the racism and nationalism of the last couple of centuries haven't really been that wonderful, that millions of people have perished in ethnic cleansings as a result, and that the most evil ideologies lean on it. This is not a racial conflict, but it is a racialized conflict due to Zionism's fundamental nature as a Jewish-supremacist ethnostate project. The ideological driver of HAMAS is certainly racist to some extent, but this is again directly due to the Zionist apartheid entity and its abettors in the west: the oppressors of Palestine are Jewish supremacists engaged in an explicitly racial project that specifically dehumanizes and slaughters Palestinians. The sort of racial animus you call attention to is intentionally cultivated by the Zionist entity to provide ideological cover for their apartheid, and to destabilize and endanger Jews around the world to promote their fascist ethnostate as the singular place where Jewish people might feel safe and protected. The dismantling of the said ethnostate can and will redound to reduced antisemitism and improved Jewish-Muslim relationships around the world. I reject the (seeming, to me anyway) implication of your argument that this conflict is one of ancient and maybe intractable racisms, when that is clearly not the case: Jews and Muslims are perfectly capable of living together, and in many cases in share a special solidarity between their communities, especially within Christian-majority areas in Europe and the middle east. I will note that this sort of interethnic/interfaith co-mingling is something that the Zionist entity fights against. Again, ultimate blame for October 7th can and should be laid at the feet of the apartheid Zionist entity creating and maintaining the conditions, both directly and indirectly, for the rise of HAMAS and the attacks they carried out, in the exact same way that the actions of America in the middle east since the end of the second world war created and maintained the conditions for the September 11th attacks, the rise of Wahhabism, the violent jihadi groups that gained power in the power vacuums created by American imperial misadventure, etc. etc. You may (not you specifically, per se) agree with the ends: the defeat of the Soviet Union (in America's case) and the establishment of a settler-colonialist ethnostate (in the Zionist entity's case), but in either case you must also accept that you can't get there in a contextless vacuum. No group of human beings will allow themselves to be slaughtered forever without trying to fight back, especially not for a racial-supremacist fascist project. e: I've written Jewish-supremacist but really that's not quite right, the ethnostate is not broadly Jewish-supremacist but instead operating over a definition of what you might call Jewish-whiteness, evident in how poorly the Zionist entity treats eg. African and Asian Jews Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 15:33
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I think I'd overstate the case if I said it was ancient. A few hundred years isn't that long. Or call it the early 19th century, with "the nation" really driving the bus at first. Some of these concepts are viciously problematic, and nationalism has caused world wars. Some of them are in-your-face fictional, like races. I doubt we could really tease out very clearly what an "ethnicity" is, but the ethnicities seem to be bottom-line social categories or fictions that are widely accepted. I completely agree that concepts about nationality and ethnicity/race are inherently problematic and can drive action in an ideological sense, especially on the individual level, but I reject that anything like nationalism "caused" a world war: the engine of history is the actual, physical material of the world. Like the world wars -- like heretofore all human conflict -- the genocide of Palestine is motivated by wealth and power, the literal, physical control of the means of production. The "power" that concepts like race have is a phantom; it's epiphenomenal to material power structures. If the Zionist entity were to disappear tomorrow and the Palestinians free to live their lives without fear of genocide, omnipresent racialized violence, theft and destruction of their lives and livelihood, dehumanization and humiliation, etc., the race-based hatreds between Muslims and Jews would also dissolve, over time.
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Oct 30, 2023 16:11
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:I more or less agree with you. Marx and Engels asserted that the human symbolic order is ultimately a result of the material conditions in which people live, but I'd caution against a square economic reduction in which material power structures are the only determining element and if we just change that then history will just do the work for us. It just happened that they emphasized the economic side at a time when few people were doing that and didn't have the time to give the other element their due. Gramsci tried to re-balance the base/superstructure model, thinking that the order of material production and the order of symbols interacted historically in complex ways, and such thoughts were later extrapolated on by the Frankfurt School. In other words, ideology matters, and while these concepts like "race" and "religion" are ultimately nonsense the social organization they attach themselves to are not. I don't think concepts like race or nation have no power -- they certainly have motivating power, just that they are transient (on the macro scale) and epiphenomenal. I would not call antisemitism "socialist", even though I understand your example, because socialism isn't strictly about wealth distribution. The rise of virulent antisemitism in Europe is an excellent example of the base material conditions creating the, as you note, cultural superstructure: Jews, being a people without a nation and ostracized throughout most of Europe could often only find work in places and fields others refused, one of those fields being banking. As the rise of capitalism exploited and dehumanized more and more of the now-laboring class of Europe, blame for the new system was displaced on to the Jews, whose relationship with banking made them a visible target for a people wholly new to the depredations of capital. This antisemitism persists through to the current day specifically because it reifies the capitalist power structure by creating a false consciousness of shadowy elites organizing some kind of Jewish world order -- antisemitism that the Zionist entity is fully happy to cater to, obvious in how profoundly nasty and stupid their external propaganda is, because it too reifies their positions of power and access to material wealth. I think antisemitism stuck as a mode of racial-worldview-thought (for lack of a better term) because the statelessness of the Jews gave them a permanent outsider status, and is why they're so associated with banking and capital in comparison to the other groups that were also heavily involved with wealth management and distribution in the early stages of capital, the Catholic church especially. In a different world, a Jewish state that existed in some sort of harmony -- or at least homeostasis -- with its neighbors could have, I think, largely dissolved modern antisemitism by exposing the contradictions within antisemitic thought. But, again, antisemitism is useful to the Zionist entity, and so if we have an interest in destroying antisemitism, the dissolution of the apartheid Zionist ethnostate project is of utmost importance.
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Oct 30, 2023 17:25
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Main Paineframe posted:I think this might be mixing up cause and effect here. It's not that people grew to hate and reject Jews because Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking - it's that Jews were pushed into unwanted jobs like banking because they were hated and rejected. Turning around and using that involvement in banking to explain the antisemitism doesn't really work, because widespread and virulent antisemitism is what forced them into banking in the first place. Legal and social restrictions made it difficult for them to enter fields where they might be able to own the means of production; they were often barred from owning land and heavily discriminated against by craft guilds. I was trying to explain the stickniness of antisemitism into the modern day, but you're right in that antisemitism certainly existed before the advent of capitalism, though I would argue that it was not yet the basis of a racial worldview that it would become as capital developed across Europe. I would further point out the material basis for precapital antisemitism arising from Rome itself and its relationship to, and exploitation of, the Jews. But at this point I think I'm veering out of the focus of this thread Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 19:19
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it is breathtakingly naive to rely on the propaganda of an apartheid ethnostate currently engaged in a genocide to inform you what and where the hamas tunnels and "command centers" are, much less that the occupying force currently engaged in genocidal slaughter is "protecting" the people they're currently, actively killing from their own countrymen. I think if you want to participate in this discussion in good faith you need to come with more substantial evidence than "one of the belligerents in this conflict says so"
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Nov 8, 2023 17:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You can go back and read the BBC article. I found it convincing. If you don't think so, you can go ahead and wait. The BBC article cites a video from Hamas, not just Israeli sources. The "Hamas video" cited is something that no one has access to except for israeli officials who have, we are told, shown it to a number of journalists. Who knows what that video contains, or even what israelis purport it contains other than "Hamas doing atrocities". The reason you're getting pushback and people are assuming you (and others) are supporting israel even though you maintain that you've not made any posts explicitly in support of israel or their genocidal campaign is because of the (frankly astounding) trust you have in reportage from or citing israeli sources despite the IDF and israeli government lying constantly about everything and anything. We have seen over and over and over and over the IDF, israeli government, and related individuals and organizations issue completely bald-faced lies being for entirely propagandistic purposes until they're quietly walked back weeks after they're no longer useful. Anything coming from an israeli source -- even if the piece is in the BBC or Washington Post, etc -- should be regarded, at the very least, as extremely suspect. The fact is that no one, not a single person, who is not operating on behalf of the israeli government can present any evidence that Hamas engaged in any sexual assault, let alone roving rape gangs. This will continue to be the case until israel releases the evidence they purport to have, or, allows for independent investigations -- both of which they have so far rejected.
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Dec 8, 2023 18:11
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Kalit posted:This doesn’t even say what you’re claiming. It says some victims killed were babies and some victims were decapitated. It doesn’t say that any babies were decapitated. they can't say it again because now that the israeli government is walking away from that particular lie it'll catch more significant blowback if they try to publish it. They can, however, strongly insinuate it based on what they choose to quote and how they choose to frame the quotation. quote:Mr Ben Zion said Hamas gunmen who killed families, including babies, were "just a jihad machine to kill everybody, [people] without weapons, without nothing, just normal citizens that want to take their breakfast and that's all." Note how Ben Zion did not say that Hamas decapitated babies, he said that "they killed them and cut off their heads". The BBC writer frames the first part of the quote with "...including babies" and "...were decapitated". The BBC, which happily serves as a mouthpiece for israeli propaganda, is continuing to insinuate the "40 beheaded babies" lie, even if they can no longer do it explicitly. DeadlyMuffin posted:The BBC is neither Israel nor Hamas. They are independent enough for me. As has been explained to you many times, the BBC is not confirming anything. They make clear that their sources are israelis and israeli-approved journalists who have seen the video and/or purported "evidence". They make it very clear that they cannot independently confirm the evidence or the contents of the video.
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Dec 8, 2023 18:24
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^^^ they have written it that way so that people who want to defend israel and excuse israeli lies can make exactly your argument to do so to whoever gave me my disgusting custom title: the israeli government -- an entity that uses regularly rape and sexual assault to injure and humiliate its captive population of people who they consider to be racially inferior -- is using these purported rapes/rape gangs to justify an ongoing genocide DeadlyMuffin posted:If you think I have, go find those posts. I haven't. I've called what they are doing genocide, because it is. I did not say you made those posts. Please read what I've actually written instead of the post you imagine I'm writing. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 8, 2023 |
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Dec 8, 2023 18:36
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Kalit posted:This line you just stated is an inference that I am defending Israel and excusing their lies. Notice how this reads versus the lines in the BBC article? the way the article is worded will allow you to make this argument indefinitely and we should drop it on the grounds that if you don't want to see the inference they have given you the rhetorical tools to make it so that you never have to. this is not a fruitful avenue of discussion and we should not continue it.
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Dec 8, 2023 18:54
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. I have no need to treat Palestinian claims with any skepticism, because there is more direct firsthand evidence and testimony of the cruelty and depravity of the zionist apartheid regime and its ongoing genocide that I could examine in a lifetime. israel is currently engaged in a unflinching genocidal slaughter against a people they consider racially inferior, and I can know this by the testimony of Palestinians, the horrific images of death, destruction, and mutilation coming out of Palestine, and indeed even the statements of the israelis who are executing this genocide as well as the official statements their monstrous apartheid regime vomits forth. israel, on the other hand, has been lying constantly and consistently since October 7th (and long, long before as well). all of their lies, every single one, has been in the service of strengthening and generating support for their apartheid system and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The israelis have lied about beheaded babies, fabricated intercepted communications, lied about hospital command centers, etc. etc. etc, all in service of their campaign of genocide. Now they're telling me about how Hamas has rape gangs, trust us, for real, no nobody can look into it but we promise its true -- again for the same exact reason they have been lying from the beginning: to justify the genocide they're committing.
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Dec 8, 2023 20:23
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is nonsensical word gaming. I'm sorry if you understood it that way but that is not what I meant and I thought the way I worded it was very clear. You and I both seem to agree that it is a position you maintain! I am not talking about specific posts which you and I agree don't exist, I am talking specifically about you getting pushback even though you have not made posts here that denote explicit approval of israel or its actions. I am talking about how you and other posters here post stuff like "show me where I've made a post saying israel is good", which is to say, maintaining a position that you do not support israel because you have not made posts that say you do, and so therefore you get confused/upset/etc when people respond as if you have. my point, in that post, was that it is happening because you seem to have -- or at least make posts that evince -- an implicit trust of israel sources, at least if they're laundered through eg. the BBC
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Dec 8, 2023 23:07
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DeadlyMuffin posted:No. That's a misreading of my position. When the BBC says "videos filmed by Hamas" I am taking them at their word. Did you read the article? Because the only footage "filmed by Hamas" (according to whom is never mentioned, presumedly the IDF) shows zero evidence of rape. The vast majority of the article is by one unnamed israeli eyewitness (only footage of this testimony was shown to unspecified "jorunalists") and several IDF and israeli officials offering extremely lurid statements that -- the author of the article makes sure to point out -- have not been verified by the BBC and even is doubted amongst israeli media. Statements that sound, I'm sorry, like all the other israeli lies that have been propagated in attempts to justify their genocide. You claim to not implicitly trust israeli sources, and maybe you wouldn't if it came from TOI or JPost, but apparently when laundered through the BBC that's enough. Because, unless I have very seriously misread the article, and we take the BBC and their description of the videos they saw and their source as 100% truthful and accurate, it does not constitute evidence of supposed rapes that are, I must stress this again, being used as an excuse to engage in genocide.
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Dec 9, 2023 02:03
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'm not sure if you're trying to split a hair on "evidence of rape" vs. sexual assault, but yes, I read the article. There is, again zero evidence of rape or sexual assault outside of israeli sources and what the article's author says "suggests" it. The only item of ostensible "evidence" in that article that does not come from an israeli source is the "Hamas video" we (afaik) know nothing about, that, by the author's own admission, does not actually show any rape or sexual assault. Even if everything everyone in this article said was 100% true, it still would not justify the ongoing genocide the zionists are currently carrying out. However, the complete lack of evidence and the constant, consistent, well-documented history of israeli lies and propaganda points to this all being complete and utter bullshit, even if the BBC sees fit to print it. The smart, moral, and consistent thing to is to regard it as a complete fabrication until israel shares real evidence or allows an independent investigation (which it has already forbidden).
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Dec 9, 2023 03:06
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The problem with the "crimes of hamas" is the same problem as the supposed mass raping at the hands of crazed hamas terrorists: the only "evidence" we have for everything that can't be independently verified comes from the genocidal apartheid terror state that has been constantly lying about everything and forbids independent investigation. 40 beheaded babies, babies baked in ovens, hospital command centers, terrorist ambulances, intercepted evildoer cellphone conversations, etc etc etc are all shown to be complete fabrications that are quietly walked back when they stop working or are shown to be lies. If you want to be especially upset that they kidnapped the baby, by all means, but if the testimony of the mother of the recently released child is anything to go off of it seems that they might just try to teach the baby some table manners. If they're not killed by israel's indiscriminate genocidal bombing campaign, that is.
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Dec 9, 2023 03:24
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Who is saying that it does? I'm certainly not, so why bring this up? I'm not saying you say it does, I'm making a point about how the genocide is not and can not be forgiven even if the israelis here turn out to be 100% truthful, but that this case is almost certainly the same as everything israel has put out: a complete fabrication to excuse their behavior. That my position on the genocide not being contingent on the truthfulness of the israelis is an important statement for me to make, in my opinion! At any rate the rest of your post isn't really relevant to our conversation here but my entire point that there isn't "any amount of evidence". There's zero. Kchama posted:Hamas has admitted to kidnapping the baby. Are we to disbelieve them? I am utterly against Israel and their lies, but just because I am on Palestine’s side doesn’t mean that I won’t ignore it when they commit misdeeds too. I'm not saying Hamas didn't kidnap the baby. I don't want nor am I able to stop you from finger-wagging that as much as you see fit, I'm saying that based on what we have heard from the released hostages that by far the greatest harm that might befall the baby, or any hostage, is coming from israel, not Hamas. If you don't know what I'm referring to, the mother of the young girl that was released recently sat down for an interview with israeli news media and the horrifying testimony she gave was that her daughter returned with improved politeness and the Arabic term for "shut up".
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Dec 9, 2023 04:45
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Kalit posted:Do you live in a country with stolen land where your race is different than those who are native to the land? If so, would you be chill with your family getting abducted/held hostage? As much as I'm sure we all hate the United $nake$ of Amerikkka, israel's relationship to Palestine very different from Americans living on indigenous land. I can talk all day about the evil that saturates America's foundation -- but -- to the best of my knowledge the US government is not currently indiscriminately bombing a walled-off Cherokee concentration camp of millions of people, nor does it have an apartheid system built to subjugate, specifically, indigenous Americans. America has not bussed in white New Englanders to literally steal homes and property from native indigenous tribes not just in living memory, but in recent months. If that were the case, and myself and my family was abducted because we had recently stolen a house held for generations by an indigenous American family and they were trying to get some sort of leverage or bargaining chip to forestall their ethnic cleansing, I might not be having a good time, but I'd have to admit that they've got a point. It's a shame that anyone has to get taken hostage, sure, but israeli settlers are not just "people who live in israel", they are a weapon of the depraved, genocidal zionist entity that is used as a tool for ethnic cleansing. That children and babies get caught up in it is a tragedy, but the ultimate responsibility for what happens to them lies with their parents and the psychopathic government that establishes these settlements. Also, thanks to whoever got mad enough to give me a custom title. I stand by that statement 100%.
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Dec 9, 2023 17:13
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Chotiner has a normal (not Chotiner-kicks-this-dummy's-rear end) interview with the "director of ethics and policy at Physicians for Human Rights Israel" who contributed to a position paper by that group describing sexual violence on Oct 7 as widespread and demanding further investigation - not taking any position on whether it was systemic. Most of the interview is about what can and can't be known at this point (or ever). Obviously the interview contains very upsetting descriptions of sexual violence - none in the below quote though. This is the same as the other articles posted here in that the is no evidence here whatsoever beyond what the israeli government puts out and whatever this particular person saw on telegram, which from the interview look like the already public videos that do not show any evidence of sexual assault. This is just somebody regurgitating the exact same lurid israeli government lines to the New Yorker. She even admits that she and her organization have not interviewed any victims or even eyewitnesses.
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Dec 11, 2023 15:33
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Gnumonic posted:In all seriousness: Do you know any Muslims/Arabs? This aligns with my experience as well. People I've known for a long time who were anywhere from consistent D-voters to people who considered themselves completely apolitical are furious at Biden. Every single Muslim or Arabic person I know identifies with the Palestinian struggle in a way that Democrats didn't broadly see with things like eg. Latino voters and migrants at the border/kids in cages. It feels very different. Who knows if this sentiment will persist until election time or if it'll cause Biden to lose any states, but Biden's zionist sympathies and the Democrats' addiciton to APAIC money is looking more like a massive liability the longer israel continues it's genocidal campaign
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Dec 11, 2023 23:41
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Paladinus posted:According to the IDF, at least 20 out of the 105 confirmed Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza were due to friendly fire and accidents. Reportage on the same statistic from ynet: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip but also includes the following: quote:The new figure of 20 casualties who fell specifically from operational accidents or friendly fire is minimal and doesn’t refer to the first three weeks preceding the ground escalation, regarding the casualties on October 7, nor does it include other fronts. The IDF refusing to investigate these suggests that either the FF incidents on and around 10/7 were staggering -- or that the IDF killed a whole lot of israeli civilians. This isn't a stretch considering the kibbutznik testimony or the interviews of the IDF soldiers giving statements that were basically like "we rolled in and just started blasting". Probably both.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:27
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moths posted:Is anyone independently trying to count these numbers? I feel like you could add up Hamas videos and get more than 105 but I don't have the capacity for that. Apparently per this Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8e-d52f47ac0000 the IDF are only reporting around 15% of their casualties, based on the discrepancy between the IDF and israeli department of health. Full disclosure I'm basing this off a twitter summary of the article because I don't have a Haaretz account. Considering that the department of health is another government source I wouldn't be surprised if they're undercounting as well.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:07
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CSM posted:The article talks only about wounded IDF, and the IDF is reporting 34% compared to hospital figures. That's why I made the disclosure, isn't it? Underreporting by 2/3rds is still completely nuts, and again considering the sources almost certainly another lie. If they're reporting figures this bad the real numbers must be awful.
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Dec 13, 2023 13:30
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I'm sorry but it is astoundingly naive to believe anything coming from any israeli source at this point. They have lied constantly and consistently about everything, and no one should have any reason to trust anything coming from any israeli source that's not independently verified.
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Dec 13, 2023 14:16
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DeadlyMuffin posted:You do realize that *you* posted the Israeli source, right? I genuinely wish you'd try to engage with what I am writing than try to own me with facts and logic. I don't think I've posted anything strange or contradictory here. Coming from my position of "no israeli source is trustworthy", which I think I've made very clear is my honestly held opinion, I still believe that -- even if everyone is lying! -- we can glean some pretty shocking information in the discrepancies between two figures coming from official sources. The difference between 15% and 33% doesn't refute my argument. That's still a huge number undercounted! My argument to Kagrenak is that I think it's naive to think that Harretz or the israeli health ministry is publishing accurate numbers because they'll catch just as much heat for the real numbers. I think few sources in israel have access to the real numbers and that multiple elements of the israeli state apparatus are denying, hiding, or slow-walking figures for propagandistic (domestic or external) ends, but outside of the actual government and IDF coordination is necessarily limited. That point isn't constrained because it's coming from israeli sources -- it depends on it! I am posting earnestly in this thread with my real and actual opinions and thoughts on the matter. I'm not trying to do some sort of weird troll thing to rile you up specifically. Even if I have commented on this thread elsewhere I promise you I am not posting in it (nor have I ever done so) to evoke reactions that I could quote in CSPAM or discord or wherever. I'm posting things I actually believe, and even though my first posts in this thread were sarcastic they were in service of points that I honestly believe. e: There's no moral point here, moths was wondering about IDF casualty numbers VVV Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Dec 14, 2023 |
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Dec 14, 2023 18:57
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel did actually take 9 fatalities in a single incident this week, so that may be a rare example of Hamas telling the truth. This is, again, a bizarre expression of implicit trust in israeli sources while discounting anything else. Hamas rarely tells the truth, they tell a lot of absurd and desperate lies, there's no evidence of claims -- where are the counterclaims coming from? israel? We've already demonstrated how israel lies constantly, about everything, including within their own propagandistic apparatus. Where are even the casualty discrepancies between the IDF and the israeli health ministry coming from? Surely they can't all be friendly fire incidents?
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Dec 14, 2023 21:04
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Main Paineframe posted:Did they ever actually present civilians as "captured Hamas fighters"? Several Twitter accounts certainly accused them of doing so, but when I checked their claims, I didn't find any evidence of that. Official Israeli sources stated only that they had captured military-aged males in an area that was supposed to have been evacuated, and they would be investigating and interrogating the captured men to determine whether any of them were affiliated with Hamas. I was not able to find Israeli authorities claiming those captured civilians as confirmed Hamas members. Are you talking about the guys they stripped and forced to "surrender" and hand over their prop guns while they shot propaganda photos? Because releasing these photos right after Nethanyahu started making statements that "dozens of militants are surrendering" is getting into some real strange territory here. Or are you only referencing this article: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-groups-of-hamas-militants-surrendered-amid-gaza-fighting-7891bc22 which repeats in its opening lines that israel claims that many of the men who are being detained are surrendering Hamas fighters?
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Dec 16, 2023 16:57
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Main Paineframe posted:If we want to know what the Israeli government is actually saying about the people they're capturing in Gaza, the actual direct quotes from actual Israeli government officials speaking on-the-record using their real names are probably the actually important part of that article. I don't understand why we have to months (decades) into this still play the game where we pretend there's some sort of useful understanding to be gleaned from what the israeli government is saying, much less the textual specifics, beyond maybe "how big of a lie is this?". israel has the most sophisticated, in a sense, propaganda apparatus in in world. Social media, traditional media, the actual person of Bibi Netanyahu, keep saying "we're capturing Hamas fighters. Militants are surrendering. They're losing, we're winning, they're giving up. Total victory is right around the corner". Now they release images of ~somebody~ "surrendering" (wink!) -- a war crime, by the way -- and they have their people hedge a little bit for western audiences in saying that "oh these are just Military Aged Males that were being suspiciously Hamas-like in this Hamas area while we waged our War On Hamas™". Probably because they are finally starting to understand that hasbara is less effective when they can't make your exact argument over semantics and technicalities. Please note I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying your gormless take is completely without merit or utility. Unless you dispute that propaganda is a thing that exists you should understand that no one is going to tell you that they are doing propaganda, and that propaganda is far more complex and nuanced than a series of atomic, self-contained falsehoods coming from a single government body.
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Dec 16, 2023 19:13
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It's very odd that when it's the Irish expressing solidarity it's because of their admirable leadership and noble culture, but when the Houthis do they're rabid Islamists opportunistically leveraging a genocide to excuse their misdeeds. Anyway, regardless of what vile evil lurks in the black heart of the dreaded Houthi miscreant, PostNoveau is right: PostNouveau posted:Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again. The Houthis are the only people on the planet whose actions seem to be meaningfully threatening the zionists' genocidal campaign.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:11
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's incorrect to draw equivalence between a culture like the Irish and a political movement like the Houthis. The IRA was full of cynical opportunists, so is Sinn Fein. Where do cultural sympathies arise from? Impossible to know, probably. Kagrenak posted:Their slogan literally includes the phrase "a curse on the Jews." Get back to me with this line of thought when the Irish call for a genocide against the English in their motto. huh! hey, is this genocide of Jews by Houthis occurring anywhere but your imagination? I ask because there is an actual, honest-to-god, for-real genocide of Palestinians by israel happening right now in the real world.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:37
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Caros posted:Just so you know, that specific bit of reporting from Blumenthal has been Widely discredited. . Widely discredited by israel, though. Considering the constant israeli lies, especially about this particular subject, and the "outrage" they exhibit over this reporting, not to mention the subsequent reports, pictures and video, and testimony that has come out since this article about israeli tanks rolling into and shelling the kibbutzes really seem to suggest that the liar(s) here is not Blumenthal (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 23, 2023 22:16
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gurragadon posted:I think the list on the BDS website doesn't list enough companies or needs to be targeted more based on region to be effective. If they have longer lists on the website for economic boycotts, I can't find them, and they seem to be too focused on boycotting in a narrow way. BDS is targeted the way it is in an attempt to cause maximum impact despite the relatively low level of support for the Palestinian cause amongst buyers of israeli goods. We might see the BDS list expand in the near future as sentiment continues to turn.
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Jan 2, 2024 22:08
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