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Perfectly Safe posted:And I can't help but notice that their chests stick out further than their stomachs. If they were REAL tier 1 operators they would know that storing tactical bacon in their internal gut pouches is the best way to stave off hunger while in the bush
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Feb 4, 2016 20:59
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YOU GOTTA PUT IT IN GOD'S HANDS YOU GOTTA PUT IT RIGHT IN HIS HANDS, AND LET HIM TAKE CARE OF IT
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Feb 11, 2016 19:26
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Jesus christ I can't loving believe they are shoving religion down this loving guy's throat what bad loving timing
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Feb 11, 2016 19:39
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Evil Fluffy posted:Cliven's going to spend the rest of his life in prison isn't he? Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Yeah I get the feeling the real reason we didn't get a bust in 2014 was because they wanted to compile the biggest, nastiest case possible. Cliven's trial is going to look like they're prosecuting a mob boss.
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Feb 11, 2016 19:46
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kartikeya posted:Making this all about her. Every time she starts talking he gets more agitated. 100% what the gently caress is wrong with these people?
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Feb 11, 2016 19:50
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"I wish I had a chance..." gently caress it's coming
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Feb 11, 2016 19:51
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"If everyone says hallelujah I'll come out" I'm legit concerned
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Feb 11, 2016 19:56
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Kro-Bar posted:I think they've got him. Thank god I didn't want to hear this crazy guy kill himself on a live stream
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Feb 11, 2016 19:58
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's the full criminal complaint against Cliven Bundy. RICO would be really incredible. And really, really deserved. edit: Wow, they really do have a lot of charges against him. I'm imagining an FBI conference room with pictures on the wall and pins and strings pointing out the links, like an old school RICO investigation. Who knows how long they were working on this? I hope somebody writes a book. I really want to know how much poo poo was going on behind the scenes while we all assumed the feds were never going to do anything about the Bundy family Mirthless fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 20:20
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fade5 posted:
No confirmation on RICO yet but I really wouldn't be surprised if they'd been pursuing it from the get-go It certainly would explain why Cliven didn't get arrested in 2014. It's not like they didn't have enough dirt on him back then.
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Feb 11, 2016 20:25
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Goddamn, we're going full loving RICO against him?
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Platystemon posted:RICO is the fed’s big swinging dick.  Discendo Vox posted:Again, just because RICO's available doesn't mean it will be used. If RICO is applied, it will mean the government is targeting people who were funding or supporting the Bundys. I wonder how many politicians would get indicted in the process?
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Feb 11, 2016 20:27
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akadajet posted:
It would be pretty funny if the government fined everyone who sent them snacks and supplies though
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Feb 11, 2016 20:28
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people who sent them double ended dildos
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Platystemon posted:“we had to bag this 55 gallon drum of lube as evidence, hope it was worth it, assholes” At the court proceedings a trail of FBI trainees 55 long walk in with one gallon ziplocks of astroglide and pour it out on the floor for the jury to see the volume of lube delivered
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Feb 11, 2016 20:32
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Warcabbit posted:If, and I repeat, if they do... I wouldn't expect to see any billionaires get brought up on charges in this. Politicians, though? I'm sure more than a few would be ending up in court.
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Feb 11, 2016 20:33
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Good Citizen posted:Tree of liberty lookin really dry today I kind of get the feeling that near the end he mainly surrendered because he realized the people he had surrounded himself with were crazy jesus freaks who saw his impending suicide as an opportunity to guide him into the kingdom of heaven Like I was so certain at the Hallelujah! moment he was going to kill himself, but now I'm pretty sure he was just making fun of the other two idiots on that phone call
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Feb 11, 2016 21:42
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DeathSandwich posted:I'm the boring shut in that's never been on an airplane. Are Air Marshals in plainclothes when on an airplane generally? It'd stand to reason you wouldn't want to advertise who the Air Marshal on a flight was in case some group of people get it in their head to try and jack him. Yeah, Air Marshals are generally plainclothes officers and they're sometimes randomly (or not so randomly) placed on flights. There's no way of knowing your plane has an Air Marshal on it until poo poo goes down.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:47
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A Winner is Jew posted:FBI are on average the best intelligence agency while the CIA is the worst. The NSA is mostly signals stuff so they really don't do much but track everything you read/write/listen to. That's not to say that the FBI is all that great either, it's just that the FBI have always operated on the assumption that they're law enforcement officers while the CIA have always operated on the assumption that they're superspies. This is why the FBI's worst offenses usually involve a dozen cultists/militiamen/whatever getting killed in a standoff, and the CIA's worst offenses are black site prisons and gun running operations with Mexican cartels. One organization places value on taxpayer lives, the other organization sees taxpayers as just another threat to The Company.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:50
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shoplifter posted:That was made by Gavin Seim, and it was kind of followed by 'Um..' and sputtering by (I believe) Sean It's gonna be so funny when they find a bunch of new poo poo to tack onto everybody's sentences now that they have the compound fully secured. After how much of a pain in the rear end they made this for the FBI, I imagine that every illicit logon event and every mile joyridden is going to come back to bite Ammon Bundy in the rear end.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:52
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Mercury_Storm posted:Well, this whole incident was such a massive loving failure that even other militia groups are calling the whole thing a false flag. I was expecting this. This whole debacle was such an embarrassment to Socis and groups like Sagebrush that it's effectively setting back the militia movement decades. It was like a reverse WACO. Or an Oklahoma City Bombing without a daycare getting wiped out in the process. I imagine there are some people in the FBI who just got some very big boosts to their careers for ending this in an essentially bloodless way. Except Finicum, but everyone's seen the video at this point, the way his supporters are trying to paint him as a martyr just further discredits their movement.
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Feb 11, 2016 21:57
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Mr Interweb posted:Filthy scum. I really hope they did. I'm sure the FBI is going to be taking their sweet time securing the rest of the compound. If they find any booby traps, that's a whole new set of charges, and if they're going for RICO prosecution that means Ammon and Ryan could be facing charges for every booby trap the holdouts set. (I suspect this may also be why Ammon was sweating the end of the occupation so hard - if he knew RICO was on the table he also knew he was on the hook for anything that happened at the occupation)
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Feb 11, 2016 21:58
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eviltastic posted:Uh, while I agree with your general sentiment, I think this part's pretty off. I don't know how it was in the rest of the country but in Michigan we went from having our biggest militia airing commercials on television to local businesses putting up signs saying "MILITIA MEMBERS NOT WELCOME" basically overnight. As soon as we knew where Timmy came from we were all in a big hurry to not be associated with him. After moving out to Oklahoma I also discovered that Oklahoma has basically no militia movement, or at least not a significant one, despite our extreme right leaning tendencies. Everyone takes "the Murrah Bombing" very seriously out here.
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Feb 11, 2016 22:08
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Mr Interweb posted:Wait a minute. I thought Blaine Cooper was one of the final four? But it turns out he was arrested in Nevada? Blaine Cooper got cast out of the group when it turned out he stole valor.
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Feb 11, 2016 22:10
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Mr Interweb posted:Oh okay. Good to see the FBI didn't let him get off. I am expecting every person whose face ever ended up in front of a camera during the course of the occupation to end up tied up in this in some way I wonder if the FBI has gotten anyone (or all of them!) to turn on the others in hopes of clemency?
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Feb 11, 2016 22:16
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eviltastic posted:My point being that it'd still have had that kind of impact if the kids were elsewhere. Oh uh that's not what I was trying to imply It was more like "We got militia influence to recede and this time a bunch of kids didn't die in the process!" was what I was getting at, I don't doubt that the OKC bombing would have been negative for the militia movement either way Mirthless fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Feb 11, 2016 |
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Feb 11, 2016 22:21
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Entropic posted:All of this is why you shouldn't be trusted with guns, America.
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Feb 11, 2016 22:23
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theflyingorc posted:i would happily turn in my right to own a gun to keep a militia person from owning one, that sounds very nice A gun exchange program where you trade in your gun and the government in turn takes a second gun away from an unstable person would definitely be a program I would back 100% Like every time you hand in a gun they find some dude who thinks that they can choose to be governed by common law and just seize the poo poo out of all of his firearms
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Feb 11, 2016 22:25
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eviltastic posted:Well, yeah, really not trying to make a thing of it - just saying there was a whole lot of awful beyond what happened to the kids, which would keep it not analogous to a relatively bloodless success. That is a completely fair point! Sorry, I definitely used a bad example there.
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Feb 11, 2016 22:38
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Defenestration posted:See? You let the australian government grab all your guns, this is what you get! Obama wants to take our guns so he can install bears in every major position in washington at last, the gay agenda is realized real, actual bears
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Feb 12, 2016 03:21
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Angela Christine posted:Oh man, I can't find it now and I'm in D&D and all, but I'm sure I remember something about Bundy beliefs in natural property rights having three components: I'm guessing you are just playing devil's advocate here but you just said it made sense that the natives lost their claim to their ancestral land because they failed to defend their property, they didn't deserve the land because they weren't farming it (really? The native americans weren't primitive hunter gatherers. They gave us corn, remember?) and also that pointing firearms at federal agents is "sensible" because the government didn't gun them all down after all. Like if you are going to play devil's advocate try to make sure you have something worth advocating first. There's no rationale for what these people did.
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Feb 17, 2016 16:41
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ShadowCatboy posted:Trying to understand a different worldview doesn't imply that you think it has a point. Otherwise my books on Aztec history would be advocating human sacrifice. You don't have to agree with a point to be a devil's advocate for it. My argument is that someone's hollow justification rooted purely in fantasy is something nobody can ever advocate for. Moreover, advocating for it - even, no, especially if you disagree with it - lends it legitimacy to people sympathetic to the siege. Sometimes, it's really not worth arguing the other side's point. You don't play devil's advocate for SovCits, you roll your eyes at them and move on.
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Feb 17, 2016 17:07
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chitoryu12 posted:On top of what Main Paineframe said, I should emphasize that I still think that the apparent submission of the federal government at Bundy Ranch may have been a direct cause for the Malheur occupation, even if I understand why the feds didn't want to turn it into another Waco. By essentially surrendering, backing off, and letting Bundy keep openly breaking the law to avoid a fight, they accidentally sent a message to right-wing militia types: "The federal government is weak! As long as you get a couple hundred guys with guns to intimidate them, they won't even try to touch you!" So of course, Ammon Bundy and Ryan Payne (the two ringleaders of the incident who performed the initial planning and asked Sheriff Ward for their protest permission to provide cover for the occupation) were looking for a new cause to take up and they came across the Hammonds being ordered back into prison. Standing their ground with AR-15s and Tapco'd up SKS's and WASRs worked back in 2014. Who's to say it wouldn't work a second time? Yeah, while I understand waiting until they could really compile a case, I don't see why they didn't just do a night raid on the Bundy compound a few months after when Cliven's main supporter base had dwindled down to a half dozen people. It really is a miracle that nobody was hurt, but I suspect that the damage at the wildlife refuge is going to turn out to have been pretty serious, pretty expensive, and had they not done the raid in the middle of winter in the North, it probably would have been devastating to the local wildlife. The federal government was irresponsible in letting this criminal and his movement go for so long, and it's not the first time that ignoring a right wing militia (or similar far right group) has caused problems in this country, look at the OKC bombings or what Warren Jeffs was getting away with for decades. There is simply no interest among federal authorities in pursuing right wing extremism, they all want to avoid "another waco" or "another ruby ridge" so they just let this poo poo go until they can't ignore it anymore. The part that stings the worst is to see how the government responds to leftist protest movements with extreme, jack-booted prejudice. The government will bust rear end to break up hacky sack in central park (OWS) or teargas BLM protestors but a group of crazy right wingers talk about actively overthrowing the government and point guns at federal agents and make national level threats and calls for revolt and the FBI doesn't do anything about it until a month after they take over a government building, and even then, probably only because they started following BLM employees home and threatening their lives in public. I don't know if it's the post-McCarthy conservative leanings, the general right wing nature of American police forces or what but it's infuriating to see these guys get away with what they have when the police have spent the last two years brutally suppressing protests about violence against minorities.
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Feb 17, 2016 18:08
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Jarmak posted:How prescient, if the FBI hadn't been right about it's strategy then it would have been wrong. If this elaborate series of events was all planned by the FBI then I would like to meet these ESP-possessing agents and learn about the source of their power.
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Feb 17, 2016 18:11
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Jarmak posted:You could just read the countless posts in this thread predicting that was exactly what was going to happen. There is a difference between armchair projections and actual reality. There is a lot of ways this could have gone very wrong, right up to the very last minute of this. What if one of the guys threatening BLM employees had decided to take it a step further? What if the final 4 had gotten into a shootout with the FBI rather than be taken alive? I agree that the FBI handled it incredibly well, and that this situation ultimately worked out great in the end with a huge pile of charges to hit everyone with, but people could have died, here. They did not take the threat the Bundy family posed seriously and the end result was the occupation of a federal building, threats of violence against civilian public employees, and millions of dollars in public expenditures. The fact that they were able to prevent the worst from happening shouldn't overshadow the fact that federal authorities' inaction is what lead to this in the first place.
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Feb 17, 2016 18:20
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prefect posted:It's pretty simple. "Eventually they're going to do something good and stupid, and that's when we'll grab 'em." Yeah, they did plenty of good and stupid things over the last year and they never got nabbed. Ammon and Ryan were both reported as threatening public employees multiple times and Cliven was established as the ring leader. They could have thrown all three of these men behind bars last year. They're going to spend a lot more time in prison now, but at a significant expense to the public and significant risk to the safety of people in and around Harney county during the standoff, so I don't really think it's appropriate to pat the feds on the back for this. They did a great job in the actual arrests, negotiation, etc, and the case they have seems pretty ironclad, so much respect for that, but it really is a miracle that only one person died in this incident.
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Feb 17, 2016 18:29
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E-Tank posted:The instant they went hostile or did something violent, they'd have been raised up another level from 'Crazy assholes we're trying not to murder' to 'terrorists' and basically everything would have come down upon them at once. All the power was there and ready to do it if they hurt someone, but until they try and do that (And I'd be willing to bet since they had people in their camp from day 1 they'd have known about any attempts and would have stopped them before it happened) they're not hurting anyone. No need to kill anyone until lives are actually in danger. Is it a really lovely thing that a bunch of people were scared of them? Yeah. It is. Is it worth gunning them down on sight? Not really. You realize they were threatening violence against BLM employees within the first week of showing up, right? Like, going to their homes at 3 in the morning, following them around town, threatening them in public places, etc. They were already hostile before the FBI even showed up at the location. Lives actually WERE in danger. In one case in particular a female BLM employee was confronted directly and had people surveilling her home for days afterward. If she'd been killed or raped by these thugs would you have had the same opinion? Sure, it didn't happen, but your viewpoint seems to be that it couldn't have happened which seems more than a little naive to me edit: Also you seem to think the FBI had surrounded the camp or something prior to Ammon's arrest but they were freely coming and going from the preserve for almost the entire occupation. There's a reason Ammon and Ryan felt comfortable enough to leave the refuge with all their leadership on hand in the first place - they were utterly convinced that the FBI would do nothing to stop them. Because they hadn't, up to that point. Like, hey, great job lulling them into a false sense of security guys, good thing they didn't take the opportunity to exploit that huge window you were giving them by murdering some locals who disagreed with them. They'd certainly threatened to do so. Mirthless fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Feb 17, 2016 |
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Feb 17, 2016 18:51
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ashpanash posted:The FBI is not some sort of prognosticating supercomputer - it's made up of people. People who study these types of events and come up with strategies. The Bundy cult was made up of people too, people who didn't (and likely didn't have the resources to) think things through like the FBI could. Your summary of events are great but my point is bolded above This should never have happened in the first place. If the bundies would have been busted in the months after the initial standoff this wouldn't have gotten to this point. Most of us assumed Cliven was going to be free for only a few more months, he was on national TV calling for violence against federal agents. They let a full year pass before they did anything about it at all. People's lives were severely disrupted. Some people were threatened by strangers from another state in their own homes. People could have died at pretty much any time, from the start of the occupation up until it's last few minutes. We shouldn't let the eventual success of the FBI give them a free pass for their inaction, it certainly doesn't make the lopsided nature of attacks and infiltrations of leftist protest groups any less egregious.
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Feb 17, 2016 19:10
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OAquinas posted:'My "Next Friends" 1-10,000,000,000' Discendo Vox posted:
Little of column A, little of column B I think The 1-1000 surely refers to the shadowy cabal that runs America, and thus the world. The 10 billion represents the entire population of Earth. I believe the implication is that she is suing the federal government on behalf of the entire world. That is how deluded these loving people are.
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Feb 18, 2016 02:01
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Kazak_Hstan posted:People can start in minimum security, depending on the severity of their offense. People who start in a higher level of custody can move to a camp / minimum facility through behavior. There is a matrix that guides the process, and factors in things like previous record during incarceration, indivisible of escape probability (i.e. If you up for a life bid you are unlikely to start in a camp as your incentive to flee is higher), severity / violence of offense, etc. IIRC generally long sentences for violent crimes will put you in Medium security or higher and preclude you from going down the chain. Bernie Madoff, for example, will spend the rest of his life in Medium Security, which isn't supermax, but it's not exactly cushy, either. Even with Madoff getting sent off to what was basically a resort prison (for medium security, anyway) he's been beaten up more than once. I expect that none of the ringleaders of this operation will get any kind of serious plea deal and if they do it will be to make their imprisonment marginally more comfortable, not to reduce their sentences. They have what amounts to hundreds of hours of videotaped crimes and confessions to crimes, there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt. I don't think Cliven, Ryan or Ammon will ever see the light of day. Ammon and Ryan might have gotten by with reduced sentences if LaVoy Finicum hadn't suicided by cop, but I think the fact that there is now a body count associated with the Bundies is enough to dissuade any sympathetic judges or jurors. I expect LaVoy Finicum will get brought up a lot if this goes to trial. McNerd posted:I understand this is somewhat of a semantic point, and what you're saying is he's never physically injured anyone. But I think it's important to clarify the crimes he's charged with absolutely are considered violent acts. He's charged with assault. His 2014 actions created a tense situation where a nervous trigger finger or the sound of a car backfiring could easily have led to a massacre; it's only through a fair amount of luck this didn't happen. If his indictment is to believed, he gave people PTSD. It goes on. I want to point out that supermax is basically designed to house high profile prisoners at high risk of escape, terrorists especially. While I don't think they're going to send Cliven to supermax, I also don't think it's an impossibility. You don't have to be a murderer to get into Supermax, either - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Konopka - this guy didn't kill a single person and he's going to be in Supermax until 2019. I would argue the magnitude of his crimes were significantly lower than those of Cliven, on top of Cliven now having a body count attached to his terror cell.
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Feb 18, 2016 19:07
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evilweasel posted:nobody needs you playing dressup hero for their security, you are less of a contribution to ARE FREEDOMS than an obese security guard who had a heart attack in his chair eight hours ago but still looks like he might just be resting his eyes a little holy poo poo dude
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Feb 23, 2016 22:59
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chitoryu12 posted:The question that always comes up is "Who pays for it?" There probably wouldn't be too much of a backlash if it was free and paid for by taxes, but forcing potential owners to pay for classes would place a monetary gate on ownership that would result in legal gun owners skewing heavily toward the wealthier end of society (and likely white end of society, considering the existing socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks and Hispanics) and increasing inequality. Same for things like raising taxes on ammo or guns to inflate the prices. Gun ownership was a privilege of the wealthy when the founding fathers wrote the constitution. Interchangeable parts and mass production were still a hundred years out. There is no constitutionally protected right to be able to afford arms.
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Feb 23, 2016 23:01
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