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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Open Marriage Night posted:

I like when people can't separate Meltzer's plots from his dialogue/character moments. He sucks at one, and is really good at the other. Kind of like Bendis.

His character moments are pretty bad too. I can see how they might be 'okay on paper' but character moments need proper context to hit well and his don't except in the most basic 'lol, killed a pregnant woman' way.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

JoshTheStampede posted:

Yeah, I agree. Watchmen has always been A Very Good Comic. It's just not the loving Bible that people hold it up as.

E: also the best part of the movie is the slo-mo sex scene set to Leonard Cohen and ending with a flamespurt money shot.

Watchmen is, legitimately, one the high points of comics as an art form. It shows a ton of what can be done with the medium just through the art and structure and layout even entirely divorced from the story. Even if you removed every single dialogue bubble from the comic it would still be a fantastic comic because of how it uses layout, panel composition, coloring, shading, and basically everything that makes it a comic. The story gets a lot of focus because the story itself is extremely meticulously crafted and it's easier to point to, but Watchmen is a fantastic comic even just on its art alone. It is why Doomsday Clock is boring because it has pretty lame half-assed artwork so even if the story was superb it would still be struggling to match the original.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Halloween Jack posted:

What was the general reaction back when Nora Fries became Lazara? That just sticks out in my mind as one of the dumbest things ever.

Pretty much everyone called it dumb as hell.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Just make Cyborg into Kamen Rider.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

nofather posted:

What do people like in team comics?

Because I've seen people be all over the board in regards to writers, artists, team members, and story.

What's good about them seems really hard to pin down, and more or less coast by on legacy.

I think the best thing about team comics is when they allow dynamics or interactions to flourish you wouldn't get in a regular comic, especially if you highlight lesser-known heroes. My absolute gold standard for this is Blue Beetle and Booster Gold who are characters who nobody would have ever considered putting together and yet are now inseparable.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Zachack posted:

DC released a JLA Detroit Omni - for someone with no nostalgia for the era, although I’ve enjoyed plenty of comics from that time, are those comics any good? The one blog review about those indicated “not really” other than leading to JLI, but that’s only one opinion.

It's not really very interesting, no. It has a couple of interesting bits but that's about all it has going for it, aside from the unusual team composition.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

nofather posted:

I remember Tarantula doing that but that was like, a decade ago.

It was in the recent animated movie they did.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

nofather posted:

You should check out the new Injustice, Tim Drake just made his appearance.

What a lovely thing to do to someone.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Mr Hootington posted:

Lmao this is why final crisis is bad and 7 soldiers and multiversity are the much better "final crisis".

.. You do know footnotes exist for both of those too, right?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Rhyno posted:

Wow, he's lost a ton of weight! Good on him!

Didn't he like almost die?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

A major issue when discussing killing in comic books is that all killing is lumped together shamelessly and without question in conjunction with the same ol' "we have to at once acknowledge Comic Book Tropes without actually acknowledging them" bullshit.

"Why does Superman need to kill" is almost always conflated with "because the villain will ESCAPE and COME BACK if he doesn't." And that very rarely makes any sense. It assumes that everyone is incompetent and has to remain incompetent and can't come up with any idea besides "easily escapable prison" and "KILL THEM." It also ignores that killing someone doesn't mean they won't come back to life as pretty much every major dead villain has at some point.

It's dumb. It's a dumb argument. It never has any value. It wants to have its comic book cake and eat it too and it ends up being always nonsensical.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007


Thank the lord.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

BrianWilly posted:

I'm a great admirer of psychiatry, but I feel like that's gotta be one of the least useful abilities to have in a superheroic field team out to study some sort of ineffable cosmic threat.

I don't even know what Harley's supposed to bring to a battle. Is she some sort of martial arts expert now? Is real handy with a big hammer or a baseball bat?

Just off the top of my head I feel like Killer Frost would be a much better addition to that team. She's super powerful, good with science, got history with Ryan Choi, and would have TV-verse synergy with Barry Allen. I guess Harley's there to just...keep everyone on that team from being gigantic sticks-in-the-mud (which, to be fair, is a valid danger with that lineup).

Harley Quinn was (probably still is) slightly enhanced due to chemicals and a boost from Poison Ivy. She has above-average strength/endurance/etc and a resistance to poisons and such. I don't know how much of that is still canon but at least some of it probably is to explain why she is holding her own despite being Harley Quinn.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Android Blues posted:

I literally can't believe they had the Comedian get resurrected so he could quip and gurn and fight Ozymandias. This is bottom grade garbage.

Also, it was kind of a big deal in Watchmen that the only person in the world with actual superpowers was Dr. Manhattan. Why does the Mime, a random petty criminal, have powers? Did Geoff Johns read Watchmen?

Geoff Johns absolutely read the wikipedia article for Watchmen.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Covok posted:

Actually, to go deeper on that, wasn't using the ring to bring back your dead friends why Hal Jordan was kicked out of the Corps? I say as if I don't already know.

It was using the ring for personal reasons instead of doing your job. Hal was basically chillin' in a weird green construct of Coast City IIRC.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

I feel like for Amanda Waller to really work you have to emphatize with her. You can think she's wrong or that she's doing something awful but you understand why she feels the way she does and her cruelty is tempered by humanity (and this doesn't necessarily mean kindness but things that make her feel like a person and not a crappy walking stereotype.)

In essence she's a lot like Nick Fury. A good writer focuses on the idea that this person is, at heart, dedicated to protecting people and sometimes that means being a hardass or doing something underhanded or possibly cruel but their final goal is to protect people and while they may do immoral things for it, it is in pursuit of a goal they personally feel is moral and the audience can understand and empathize with. When you make her just the loudmouth shithead then she loses a lot of what makes her work.

People point to JLU Waller because at the end of the day she was Amoral Batman, working her hardest as a normal human to stand against superbeings who she felt were a threat and who she had very valid reason to fear. (Being that Superman had been mind controlled once and the Justice Lords *existed.*)

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

TwoPair posted:

Dr. Manhattan has them and the end of Doomsday Clock is him and Superman facing off for the trunks.

All of Doomsday Clock's mistakes would be forgiven if they meet Dr. Manhattan and the 'camera' pans down to reveal him standing there wearing bright red trunks with a giant poo poo-eating grin on his face.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Sinners Sandwich posted:

I don't read Flash comics but as an outsider I was assuming DC changed Wally's race then walked back on it by bringing in Flashpoint/616 Wally West then sprinted foward with the new Wally when the Flash TV show used the NU52 design. Is that right? Do the comics treat the Wallys like separate people or separate people like the Time Travel X-men teens?

Their original plan was just to make Nu52 Wally black, but they walked that back when doing the "we're REALLY SORRY' apology tour so the original Wally somehow survived and Wally 2 is just a relative of his or something. So there are two Wally Wests who are different people.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Mr Hootington posted:

It wasn't just making him black. Nu52 Wally was an entirely new character.

When they originally introduced Nu52 Wally in the interviews they talked about "remaining true to the core of the character" and things like that. They obviously intended him to be the new Wally West from here on out.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

I literally can not think of a comic book I want to read less than "Geoff Johns writes three Jokers at once."

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Dark_Tzitzimine posted:

True.

But now I am curious, what is referencing the third Joker? The others are from DITF and TKJ but I'm drawing a blank with the third.

The initial reveal of the three jokers was Old School Joker, DitF/Killing Joke Joker, Modern Joker.

So, uh, we're off to a good start that they can't keep that consistent.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007


I understand why but it kinda sucks none the less. I thought including context about the content was more useful than just pretending it doesn't exist.

I wonder if it's because of positive feedback to the film trailer and they don't want to risk that being associated with some pretty nasty stuff.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Considering Wally is already confirmed to be in Suicide Squad, doesn't that just imply most of this shits gonna be undone?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Sinners Sandwich posted:

I can't believe I'm seeing some argument that there should be a fourth joker

Ahem. Clearly since there are four suites in a card deck there should be a Joker for each one.

The Joker of Hearts who was the Joker who focused on pranks and humor
The Joker of Diamonds who was the Joker specializing in elaborate thefts
The Joker of Clubs, the one who clubbed Jason Todd to death.
And the mysterious Joker of Spades... what secret could this elusive fourth Joker hold?!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Parallax posted:

yeah except there’s one joker in a deck of cards

Thus why there was previously one Joker, but these new Jokers have TAKEN OVER THE DECK!

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007


Was.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

I can't imagine any comic writer who worked on Jason *really* thinks they're the first to make a crowbar callback.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Heroes in Crisis 2 is just remarkably loving dumb. It reads like a completely different story that had DC characters haphazardly shoved in and isn't even remotely trying to adjust. You literally have a magical artifact used to make people tell the truth in the story and it gets used but *not in the one way that makes any loving sense* by Harley Quinn. Like just don't bring it up in story if you want to but instead it's actually there but everyone acts like a moron. None of the characters make any sense as the characters. Wonder Woman I guess is just frightened of Harley Quinn's Batman level skill and Booster Gold is suffering traumatic brain damage.

I think HiC is actually dumber that Identity Crisis in a lot of ways which is remarkable. Maybe there's a big twist coming but damned if I know what will make it make sense. No matter who the murderer Wally West is, it's going to be a goddamn hard sell for any of this to make sense.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

ElNarez posted:

Heroes in Crisis is good and y'all just can't handle that it's making your favorites look bad.

If I hated my favorites looking bad I wouldn't be a fan of half the comic characters I am.

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