Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

almighty posted:

The thing you don't realize is that Kurds and Turks are very similar and there aren't huge cultural or religious differences between the two ethnic identities. You also fail to realize that KCK is a cult-like pseudo-Marxist group in which the worship of the great leader with huge Stalin like mustache is mandatory, and brain washing is a part of indoctrination not just into the ranks of cadres but also a rite of passage for integration into social life in areas they control in Syria. Being a subject of KCK is neither fun or popular. And since TR is allied with nearly all other Kurdish political parties outside TR in their fight against KCK/PKK, I wouldn't really jump to the conclusion of TR counter-terrorism strategy is bound to create a generation of Kurds hating TR.

I see you, and I hear what you have to say, and the only thing I�m left wondering is what�s your problem with mustaches? They can really accentuate the right face. In case they didn�t let you know when you signed on, you�ve always been allowed one in Turkish government service even before AKP liberalized the facial hair guidelines. November is 3 months away � I recommend the traditional �almondstache� for our times as it should fit nicely under a high-quality mask. The right mustache can unlock incredible career opportunities in T�rkiy�.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2022 07:37

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 10:57

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

almighty posted:

No, and anyone who seriously refers to Kurds as Mountain Turks is a pants on retard.

It is pretty outdated, nobody uses it for several decades and I�ve only seen it in old texts and western commentators, agreed.

quote:

Although Kurdish culture in general is almost indiscernible from rural Turkish identity, there are easily discernible cultural and clear linguistic differences.

What do you mean? Besides seeming contradictory to me, I don�t understand how you can say Kurdish culture and rural �Turkish identity� are �almost indiscernible.� The culture and language of rural people in �ankırı is very different from culture (and to a lesser extent language) from Trabzon is very different from culture and language somewhere like Erciş.

quote:

�As for Turkiye itself, those who self identify as Kurds are well integrated in all aspects of society. For instance, the head of MIT, the intelligence agency responsible for drone strikes and assassinations against PKK cadres in Syria and Iraq is basically a former Turkish Army intel officer with -surprise-, a Kurdish background. Istanbul actually is the most crowded city in the world with a Kurdish population. We�ve had a president with a Kurdish background.

This isn�t particularly meaningful as they are only allowed to attain such a position if they do not threaten Turkish supremacy. It�s a small step in the same way Colin Powell and Barack Obama attained positions of power in the US, yet racism and white supremacy are dominant in that country.

quote:

About half of the estimated 20 million of so Turkish citizens with Kurdish backgrounds vote for the ruling AKP and the opposing CHP, which are Turkish mainstream political parties. (Among those most vote for AKP with the exception of Kurds belonging to Alevi branch of Islam living in and around Tunceli, who traditionally vote for CHP)

It�s funny you don�t mention HDP. Why are they still holding Selahattin Demirtaş? What about the democratic rights of people who voted in HDP mayors who were removed and replaced by AKP mouthpieces?

quote:

Oversimplification of realities with regards to Kurdish identity in Turkiye and outright inaccurate narratives paddled around as propaganda for KCK�s political benefit is part of the reason why some outsiders really and sincerely believe some sort of apartheid regime crushes Kurds in Turkiye and ever lasting genocide is perpetrated to exterminate Kurds. While Kurds have legitimate historic grievances, especially against the military junta established in 1980 after the September 12 coup, talk of apartheid and perpetual genocide is rather bombastic and has no basis in reality.

Yeah, tell that to the people in Cizre and Suru�.

quote:

There�s plenty of academic research on Kurdish identity and politics in T�rkiye conducted by Turkish and Kurdish academics. I�d recommend outsiders to prioritize that as source of information over any other medium. Majority of said research is also translated to English and can be found on various Western academic journals. I�ll be happy to recommend specific academic articles to those who are interested.

It�s very hard to conduct serious academic research when you�re arrested and for your research, for your teaching activities, for what you say in class, and for your publicly expressed views. (e.g., https://www.science.org/content/article/turkish-academics-pay-price-speaking-out-kurds) It�s very hard for graduate students when half their faculty gets purged or leaves. Most of my Kurdish and Turkish acquaintances who did research on Kurdish people and minorities in Turkey have left to pursue their research in the US and Europe because it�s hopeless and increasingly dangerous for them to do that back home.

quote:

Alongside the eventual realization of legitimate cultural and political demands of my Kurdish compatriots, hopefully then we will have finally left all the suffering and the blood shed behind.

What distinguishes legitimate demands from ones that aren�t?

# ¿ Aug 3, 2022 04:59

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

a post:
I'm not sure who these folks are but these numbers sound a lot more realistic to me, given 2 earthquakes comparable to 1999 over a massive region with awful construction
https://twitter.com/risklayer/status/1622728877868191744

I hope people consider Syria too, and of course the large Kurdish and Arab populations straddling the region.
Pics from nyt showing affected areas for each quake respectfully:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/06/world/turkey-earthquake-damage.html

It's so bad!!! Don't look on social media for posts made by people stuck underneath as they were making them, horrible screams.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 01:36

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Zedhe Khoja posted:

Supposedly aid is being dispersed based on political loyalty, and a lot of those cities are anti akp. I only have hearsay on this so take it for what it�s worth.

Count Roland posted:

I'm going to need a source for that.

We're only what, 24 hours into this thing? How would you even know if the aid was political at this point?

The initial tweets from the government indicate the big guy didn't call opposition mayors with offers of support
https://boldmedya.com/2023/02/06/erdogan-deprem-sonrasi-chpli-belediye-baskanlarini-aramadi/

There are other posts claiming no support has arrived but not any I can instantly refer a news story or "primary source tweet" on

Anyway, it should be completely unsurprising to people familiar with the area. krdş t�rkiye bura ne beklion

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 17:16

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

The government is very responsive in many ways though. They developed an app real quick to report disinfo :patriot:

https://twitter.com/fahrettinaltun/status/1622777204852592640

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 17:24

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Saladman posted:

He's also politically savvy and while he has all sorts of problems, the earthquake did not hit majority Kurdish areas.

Plus even if it were centered on majority Kurdish regions, I imagine "intentionally withholding earthquake aid" would be quite a scandal, and hard to cover up.

In some hypothetical where the earthquake hit right on the divide between Turkish and Kurdish regions, and aid was prioritized to Turkish regions, maybe yeah. But that's not this earthquake.

You should look up who lives in Diyarbakır (Amed)
https://twitter.com/dryukselmis/status/1622663941007581187

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 17:27

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Saladman posted:

Sure, buildings collapsed far away, but Diyarbakir is almost 350 km from the epicenter of the second quake, and even further from the first one. I'd expect them to get less aid even in a fair world, as I imagine they also have a lot less damage.

That's also an unusual collapse in that "only" the first four floors were destroyed... and it also looks like brand new construction. I haven't seen any aerial photos of Diyarbakir but that's the closest large Kurdish-majority city to the earthquakes.

There's a lot more information out there if only you look a little bit before posting :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/emniyetgm/status/1622943238737825793?s=46&t=l
https://twitter.com/jandarma/status/1622645718262349846?s=46&t=uoPmt4S_
https://twitter.com/dailysabah/status/1622511339678597122?s=46&t=uoPmt4S_

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 17:36

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

BTW, even in cities that aren't majority-Kurdish there tend to be districts or neighborhoods that are, like Islahiye in Antep. The provinces aren't neatly segregating ethnic groups or anything.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 18:00

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Saladman posted:

Yes, there's damage there, I didn't say there wasn't?? Lots of towns in Hatay also looks like Mariupol, just look at any of the drone photos from places closer to the epicenter, like Antakya.

That's really quite a take that Erdogan is micromanaging even within cities whether Kurdish-majority areas get aid versus AKP supporting neighborhoods, but... alright.

Vali means governor and Belediye Başkanı is mayor. The mayors of cities that are held by the opposition were not contacted - note Antep appearing twice and Diyarbakır once.

I brought up the Kurdish-majority districts in cities like Antep to point out Kurdish populations are widely dispersed in the region. I haven't seen any indication yet of uneven assistance in those areas -- that is not my "take," to be clear.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 19:27

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

HolHorsejob posted:

Anyone got links to reputable relief orgs? Preferably ones that do not have a reputation for spending 90% on overhead

I believe the nonprofit run by musician Haluk Levent is reputable, and offers a number of ways to donate from abroad, including crypto:
https://ahbap.org

News in English about Ahbap: https://markets.businessinsider.com...onse-1032074861
In Turkish: https://t24.com.tr/amp/haber/haluk-levent-deprem-icin-bagis-yapan-isimleri-paylasarak-tesekkur-etti,1090251
https://twitter.com/ahbap/status/1622665789517045773
https://twitter.com/haluklevent/status/1623055620902653953

I believe he is legit as do many donors including pro-opposition celebrities, and TikTok's Turkish bureau ($100,000!) He's been arrested many times for his support of Kurdish people.

The Diyarbakır Bar Association is accepting donations but I might wait to see this in their official website instead of their legacy-verified account
https://twitter.com/diyarbakirbaro/status/1623035589397254154

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 7, 2023

# ¿ Feb 7, 2023 21:54

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Saladman posted:

A friend of mine is from Gaziantep, although her immediate family all now lives in Istanbul. She replied just now that all her extended family is safe but that they are unable to get out of the city and get to Istanbul, and that everyone is trying to leave and there's no reliable transportation out.

Same deal with my extended in laws there

there's also no heat, gas, etc; I imagine little gasoline as well.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2023 21:53

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

This is an interesting article on an ag news website highlighting some of the rural impacts on people and how it is affecting agricultural production, which is something to consider seriously when basic foodstuffs accounted for the largest price increase last year.
Earthquake caused devastation in rural areas - 08 February 2023

deepl posted:

. . .
On the third day of the earthquake, there are still places that have not been reached. In rural areas and villages, citizens are trying to dig out their relatives under the rubble with their own means.

As in densely populated urban centers, there is a great destruction in rural areas and villages. Especially in villages on or near the fault line, there is literally no stone left on stone. In villages far from the fault line, the situation is much better. In villages far from the fault line, there are a few houses that were not damaged at all.

Especially in villages in Hatay, Kahramanmaraş, Adıyaman and Gaziantep, the damage is much greater. The villages of Islahiye and Nurdağı in Gaziantep are experiencing a disaster. According to what I have heard from people living in or traveling to the villages, the situation is really dire.

It is much more difficult to reach the villages

First of all, the population density in the villages is very low. Those who stay in the villages are usually elderly. It is very difficult for them to help those trapped under the rubble. It was very difficult to reach the villages in the first two days. People living in cities, towns and districts had great difficulty in reaching their relatives in the villages. Roads were closed due to the earthquake and adverse weather conditions. There were big problems in reaching the villages. There are still closed village roads. Those who reached the villages say that the view they saw was horrible.

There are villages that have been leveled

Osman T�rkman, who was successfully serving as the President of Gaziantep Sheep and Goat Breeding Association until recently, was dismissed two weeks ago on January 22nd and a trustee was appointed in his place, has been traveling from village to village since the first hours of the earthquake. He has been making efforts to deliver aid to the villages.

Osman T�rkman, with whom I spoke several times by phone, summarized the situation in the villages of Gaziantep Nurdağı, Islahiye and Şehitkamil as follows: "As you can imagine, there is a huge destruction in the countryside and villages. People have lost their lives and property. I am in a village right now. They are trying to do something with their own means. I am in Şehitkamil Atalar Village. There are 62 deaths in this village. There are 22 deaths in Nurdağı Kartal Village. In İkizkuyu, there is one house left from 7-8 houses and there are 12-13 deaths. These are all estimated numbers. Because there are people under the rubble. Sak�ag�z� Village is in a region between Gaziantep and Nurdağı. Settlements and houses have all been destroyed. There is a huge destruction. Cemeteries are now working on a 24-hour basis.

"It is as if the earthquake lifted the villages from their places and then lowered them again"

People are trying to save their animals, their lives with their own means. We call our producer friends who are still standing and ask them to take care of their animals. There are people whose animals are under the rubble. The news coming from Gaziantep, Hatay, Kahramanmaraş, Adıyaman shows how severe the situation is. This disaster is being responded to in a very large area. The villages of Islahiye and Nurdağı are really bad. It is as if the earthquake has lifted the villages and brought them down again. I look to my left and right and the houses are all destroyed.

There is a need for tents, food and food

We see that more people have come here compared to the first day, that is, on the third day of the earthquake, our initiative citizens have come here for help. In the villages, everyone is trying to help each other. The people here primarily need tents, food and food for themselves and their animals.

Since villages are small family businesses, people have stables under their houses. People live on top and animals live underneath. When the houses collapse, the stables also collapse. There is no place for both people and animals to stay. There is feed in the house, but they cannot go in and buy it. Therefore, they cannot feed their animals. Many of them have abandoned their animals. Their siblings, spouses, children are dead, they don't have time to think about their animals."

Stables, feed stores, milking parlors destroyed

I also met with Kamil �zcan, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Central Union of Cattle Breeders of Turkey, L�tfi Dana Haliloğlu, President of Hatay Union, and Ahmet Şimşek, President of Gaziantep Union. Of course, human life comes first. It is very important to pull even one person out of the rubble alive. The production of food necessary for human life is also important.

For those living in rural areas, their livestock, which is a source of livelihood, is as important as their own lives. There are very important problems due to the earthquake. There are animals trapped under the rubble because the barns collapsed. There are animals that are left outside without owners or waiting without food and water because their owners cannot take care of them. Feed stores, silos, milking parlors were destroyed. There is no electricity, no water. Animals cannot be milked. Some producers' animals have been bought and fed by breeders in nearby provinces. But the problem is much bigger. The state must reach the villages and take important steps and measures for farmers.

A very big organized effort is needed. Because those who are engaged in animal husbandry and agriculture here are really in trouble. Village roads are closed in some places and villages are already inaccessible. Those who have relatives are trying to support them by reaching the village somehow. In most of the villages, the phone does not work. Electricity is cut off.

In many places, milking parlors are not working. Because there is no water, the electricity is cut off. Animals are being transported to Kayseri, Amasya and other places. However, the roads are closed. Even people in the village go elsewhere to buy bread. "There is no bread," they complain.

There are also those who have taken refuge in unharmed villages

I also talked to Dr. Murat Salih, a farmer in Kilis. He said that there was almost no damage in the villages far from the fault line in Kilis, and even those whose houses were destroyed or damaged in the city went to the villages. Stating that those who migrated from the villages to Kilis and Gaziantep center over the years returned to their villages after the earthquake because they could not enter their houses, Salih said, "They took many of their neighbors who had nowhere to go to the village with them. Many villages have the same practice. It is very nice to see that this solidarity has not been lost."

Murat Salih said that the earthquake caused great damage in the villages of Musabeyli district of Kilis and that the situation in these villages was very bad.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2023 00:09

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Charlz Guybon posted:

Is this guy credible?

The professor is; that guy and the Economist maybe not idk. Here's his account
https://twitter.com/ovgunaercan/status/1625510528758980612

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Feb 14, 2023

# ¿ Feb 14, 2023 17:13

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Boris Galerkin posted:

I saw some reports about how contractors were getting arrested, one being ambushed at an airport even.

Couldn�t he just say �look I�m arresting the people who did this�?

Here's a NYT story covering that a tiny bit:
As Anger Swells Over Quake, Turkey Detains Building Contractors

quote:

## As the death toll in Turkey and Syria passed 28,000, Ankara was coming under growing criticism for its slow response and tolerance of shoddy construction.

Published�Feb. 11, 2023 Updated�Feb. 12, 2023

A rescuer survived being buried under falling debris, as crews across Turkey worked to save people, including young children, trapped in buildings that collapsed in a devastating earthquake.Emin Ozmen for The New York Times

ADIYAMAN, Turkey � Turkish officials on Saturday began detaining dozens of contractors they blamed for some of the building collapses in Monday�s devastating earthquake, as anger swelled over the government�s slow rescue effort and the death toll in the country surpassed 24,000.

The government issued arrest warrants for more than 100 people across the 10 provinces affected by the quake, the state-run Anadolu News Agency reported on Saturday, as the Turkish Justice Ministry ordered officials in those provinces to set up �Earthquake Crimes Investigation Units.� It also directed them to appoint prosecutors to bring criminal charges against all the �constructors and those responsible� for the collapse of buildings that failed to meet existing codes, which had been put in place after a similar disaster in 1999.

At least four people were arrested on Saturday. The legal actions constituted the first steps by the Turkish state toward identifying and punishing people who may have contributed to the deaths of their fellow citizens in the quake. Across the earthquake zone, residents expressed outrage at what they contended were corrupt builders who cut corners to fatten their profits and the government�s granting of �amnesties� to builders who put up apartment complexes that failed to meet the new codes.

In the Saraykint neighborhood of Antakya, residents pointed to shoddy workmanship in a newly built luxury building of 14 floors, with some 90 apartments, that had collapsed on itself.

�The concrete is like sand,� said one man who declined to give his name, standing near the building as he watched rescuers work. �It was built too quickly.�

Among those detained on Saturday was Mehmet Ertan Akay, the builder of a collapsed complex in the hard-hit city of Gaziantep, who was charged with involuntary manslaughter and violation of public construction law, a Turkish news agency reported. The Gaziantep prosecutor�s office said it had issued the detention order after inspecting the evidence collected from the rubble of the complex he had built.

Mehmet Yasar Coskun, the constructor of a 12-story building in Hatay Province with 250 apartments that was completely destroyed, was detained on Friday at an Istanbul airport while trying to board a flight to Montenegro. Dozens of people are thought to have died when the building collapsed.�Mr. Coskun told prosecutors his building had been properly licensed and audited by local and state authorities, according to the Anadolu News Agency, and his lawyer suggested the main reason he had been detained was mounting public anger.

Two builders of a collapsed 14-story building in Adana, who reportedly fled Turkey immediately after the quake, were detained in Northern Cyprus, according to the Turkish-controlled Northern Cyprus administration.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey�s president, visiting Diyarbakir Province on Saturday, defended the government�s response to the earthquake, which has been criticized as slow and haphazard. Around the country, residents have waited impatiently for government help to find their loved ones in the rubble, keep their families warm and ensure they get enough to eat, in a country where inflation passed 80 percent last year.

On Saturday, Mr. Erdogan said this quake was �three times bigger and more destructive than the 1999 quake, the greatest disaster in our country�s recent memory.� While acknowledging that official response has been slow, he said that the country was not prepared for an earthquake of this size.

Mr. Erdogan, who faces a�tough election battle in May, called for unity, saying: �Unfortunately some political parties, NGOs, still seek to attack immorally, impudently.� He vowed retribution on looters and said that all Turkish universities would switch to online learning so that survivors could live for now in state-run dormitories.

While Turkey has building codes put in place after the 1999 quake, residents said that they were often not applied because contractors can earn more money when they cut corners: mixing the concrete and using cheaper metal bars to gird pillars, among other things.

Mesut Koparal, a car dealer whose mother was killed in the quake, was furious at the state for not doing more to ensure buildings were constructed well.

�The state is responsible,� he said. �If you have a small amount of debt, the state chases you and finds you, but they don�t check the buildings.�

�I�m not an engineer, I�m not a contractor,� he added. �How would I know?�

His neighbor, Mehmet Celik, 38, a middle-school teacher, said the big problem was so-called amnesties for buildings that were not built according to code, which the government occasionally issues to effectively legalize such buildings. It�s good politics, because no one wants a building or apartment they had paid for to be condemned, he said. But then the building is vulnerable when a quake hits.

In the city of Adiyaman, the main thoroughfare felt like a construction site that sprawls out, block after block after block. But instead of putting up buildings, crews of workers, cranes, bulldozers and excavators were digging through the rubble of those that have collapsed.

That's the salient point to your post but I haven't the heart to delete the rest:

quote:

Residents said rescue crews and aid were initially slow to arrive after Monday�s powerful earthquake, which has also killed nearly 4,000 people in neighboring Syria. The crews now pack the main roadway.

Rescue workers, miners and uniformed soldiers stand atop piles of rubble and rest on the grassy median, warming themselves with wood fires that choke the air with smoke, and sipping lentil soup made in volunteer kitchens.

Adiyaman was badly damaged, with a number of buildings on each block along its main street now collapsed. Many others have cracked windows and walls, and none appear to have any inhabitants.

Prepared food, diapers and baby formula were being handed out at various distribution points. In an empty dirt lot, volunteers set up an open-air pharmacy to hear residents� complaints and look at their medical records before fetching the proper pills or syrups from folding tables behind them.

At a medical tent next door, doctors offered free consultations to anyone who walked in. The most common complaints were wounds from shattered glass or falling bricks, respiratory illnesses aggravated by the cold weather and diarrhea from the lack of potable water for the droves of homeless people, said Dr. Firat Erkmen, the head of a medical association in Sanliurfa that sent a delegation of volunteers.

A million or more people in the affected region are thought to be without shelter in a cold winter, U.N. officials said, as local and foreign aid workers pushed to bring food, clean water and temporary housing to the affected areas, especially in northwest Syria, which has been largely cut off from outside aid because of political obstacles stemming from a 12-year civil war.

Dalal Masri, 55, from Aleppo, Syria, sat with her family inside their temporary new home, a former car wash, in Antakya, Turkey, on Friday.Emily Garthwaite for The New York Times

The earthquake left widespread destruction across southeastern Turkey and northern Syria, both in the last opposition-held territory in Syria�s northwest and in swaths of government-held territory, particularly Aleppo.

Humanitarian aid has been politicized for a long time in a divided Syria, with President Bashar al-Assad insisting that it be funneled through the central government, while most Western aid agencies want to deliver aid directly to the country�s northwest, which is held by Turkish-backed opposition forces.

Only one border crossing from Turkey into northwest Syria, Bab al-Hawa, has been authorized for aid deliveries by the United Nations Security Council, where Russia, which supports Mr. al-Assad, has refused to allow other crossing points to function. There were reports that the Syrian Red Crescent received permission to send 14 trucks of aid through the crossing to Idlib, accompanied by U.N. officials, but much more aid is needed.

The Syrian death toll is expected to grow considerably in the next few days, as a disorganized rescue effort gets into higher gear.

�Emergency response must not be politicized,� said Geir O. Pedersen, the U.N. special envoy for Syria, speaking after a meeting of a humanitarian task force in Geneva. �Our immediate asks are two: access and resources,� he added.

While aid has been pouring into Turkey, the situation in Syria is more chaotic and dire. Mr. Pedersen is only one of a number of U.N. officials expected to visit the country. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, director of the World Health Organization, traveled on Saturday to Aleppo, and the U.N. aid chief, Martin Griffiths, is in Turkey and hoping to go to Syria, where Mr. al-Assad has been touring areas of devastation and blaming the West for shunning his government.

One Syrian volunteer, Mohamed al-Shibli, said on Saturday that the Syrian White Helmets rescue group was now recovering only the dead. �Yesterday and today we haven�t found any cases alive,� he said.

Rescue operations continued in Turkey, where 67 people had been pulled alive from the rubble in the past 24 hours, Vice President Fuat Oktay told reporters overnight. He said that about 80,000 people were being treated in hospitals, while 1.05 million left homeless by the quakes huddled in temporary shelters.

Turkey�s Disaster and Emergency Management Authority said on Saturday that nearly 93,000 survivors had been evacuated from the quake zone.

While Turkish officials have encouraged families to evacuate, many have been stymied. The Goclu family had heard about a bus to evacuate people, but when they arrived to take it, it had been canceled, Melek Goclu said. Her husband had booked plane tickets, but they had been canceled, too.

�We just want to leave,� she said, �but we can�t find a way.�

# ¿ Feb 14, 2023 20:51

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Xerxes17 posted:

Wrong thread, this is the ME except for I-P thread.

*The Greater Middle East including Azerbaijan and Armenia

# ¿ Oct 10, 2023 17:07

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Saladman posted:

Much more likely that the US just keeps bombing ballistic launch vehicles when it sees them. They�re big and probably fairly easy to spot, and Houthi-Iranian drones are probably good training target practice for fighters. Pirate speedboats will not be as large an issue compared to Somalia � the Yemeni coastline controlled by the Houthis is small and the Red Sea is much smaller and the shipping lanes far more confined, unlike Somalia where pirates were striking hundreds of miles offshore.

Also impressive that anyone ITT still thinks the Houthis randomly attacking Pakistani and Turkish and Egyptian shipping has anything at all to do with support for Gaza.

Why do you bring up Turkish shipping? 701 Turkish vessels have shipped 2 million tons to Israel as Gaza is being bombed. Some of those are by companies tied to the Turkish president and his family.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2024 10:22

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Neurolimal posted:

This keeps being said, but the only examples put forth have literally been Saudi ships or a Turkish ship at a Saudi port, during a Saudi-led war of extinction against Yemen.

It's worth a mention that Turkey is not really aligned with the cause here, either, despite Sleazy E's fiery rhetoric. Wouldn't be surprising if Turkish-associated ships would be considered "fair game."
Ships linked to former Turkish PM continued to deliver goods to Israel during Gaza conflict

www.turkishminute.com - Fri, 01 Dec 2023 posted:

According to an investigative journalist citing data from maritime tracking websites, a shipping company with close links to former Turkish prime minister Binali Yıldırım, a close confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, continued to send cargo to and from Israel during the height of the conflict in October and November � despite the Turkish government�s harsh anti-Israel rhetoric.

Between Oct. 16 and Nov. 7, the ships Hazar S and Sun S, which belong to Oras Denizcilik, entered the Israeli port of Haifa several times, according to an investigation by journalist Metin Cihan, the details of which he shared on X, formerly known as Twitter.

Oras Denizcilik is owned by Salih Zeki �akır, a close associate of the former prime minister. �akır is a known shipowner who employed Yıldırım briefly before his career in government.

Yıldırım�s son Erkam�s offshore company established in Malta shows �care of Oras Denizcilik� as the company address.

According to a previous investigation by Cihan, another shipping company with links to Erdoğan�s son Burak was also loading cargo in Israel during the height of the Gaza conflict in October.

Manta Denizcilik, owned by Mert �etinkaya, who also co-owned MB Denizcilik with Burak Erdoğan, sent a ship to Israel like Oras Denizcilik.

The links to Burak Erdoğan and Erkam Yıldırım in both cases are through shared addresses and the same areas of activity with the companies in question and companies owned by Erdoğan and Yıldırım.

�Although the strictness of regulations about such matters changes from country to country, the fact that the companies have similar shareholders, the same registered addresses, the same areas of activity indicate organic links between these companies, according to a previous ruling by Turkey�s Supreme Court of Appeals,� Brussels-based lawyer Ali Yıldız told Turkish Minute.

This means that this degree of commonality under Turkish law can lead to legal obligations for the persons involved in the event of a dispute as they can be seen as shell companies, according to Yıldız.

## Yıldırım family�s shipping empire

In 2017 an investigation by European Investigative Collaborations (EIC) into then-prime minister Yıldırım�s family business revealed that the family possesses shipping and related assets exceeding 100 million euros.

Their business includes 11 foreign-flagged ships managed through a network of companies in Malta, the Netherlands, the Netherlands Antilles and possibly the Marshall Islands and Panama. The shipping operation, obscured in tax havens and opacity, is financed through substantial loans from Swiss and Turkish banks.

Yıldırım�s career in shipping started in 1994 with İstanbul Fast Ferries Company (İDO) owned by the city, which was then governed by newly elected mayor Erdoğan. Yıldırım was dismissed in 2000 due to a scandal involving favoritism towards his uncle. Unfazed, Yıldırım shifted to politics, joining Erdoğan�s Justice and Development Party (AKP) in 2001 and subsequently becoming minister of transport after the AKP�s 2002 election victory. Despite parliamentary inquiries, Yıldırım has been reticent about discussing his family�s business operations, only stating that he handed over his shipping business to his children upon becoming a deputy in 2002.

The EIC investigation traced the Yıldırım family�s shipping network to Malta-based entities like Dertel Shipping Limited, Nova Ponza Limited, Rory Malta Limited and Nova Warrior Limited, managed by S�leyman Vural, Yıldırım�s nephew and Erkam, his son. These companies, along with others in the Dutch Caribbean, are part of a sophisticated structure designed to obscure ownership and minimize tax liabilities.

The first traces of the Yıldırıms� offshore adventures appear in Malta in 1998, via a company that alludes to the Turkish provenance of its shareholders � Tulip Maritime Limited.

This was headed by the former prime minister�s uncle Yılmaz Erence and contacts from Turkey�s political and business world. These included �akır and Ahmet Erg�n, President Erdoğan�s advisor from his days as İstanbul mayor, as well as a former deputy and high court judge, Abbas G�k�e.

According to revelations by Erdoğan�s former confidant Ali Yeşildağ, Yıldırım himself is just a keeper of a vast fortune that belongs to Erdoğan, who put him in charge of İstanbul city�s ferry company and to whom he owes his career.

## Trade with Israel

After Palestinian militant organization Hamas launched attacks on southern Israel from the Palestinian enclave of Gaza on Oct. 7 that killed 1,200 people and resulted in the taking of 240 hostages, Israel retaliated by pounding Gaza, leading to thousands of civilian casualties.

Israel�s harsh response drew criticism from around the globe, while backlash in the Islamic world was particularly pronounced. Turks took to the streets to protest Israel, while vigilante boycotts against pro-Israel companies degenerated into mobs attacking customers for choosing the wrong coffee shop to frequent.

Erdoğan, who long marketed himself in the Muslim world as the champion of Palestinian rights and a strong critic of Israel, was unusually moderate in his tone in the initial days of the conflict and even offered to mediate between the sides.

However, as public outrage grew over the death toll in Gaza, the Turkish president could not afford to remain silent and unleashed a harsh rhetoric that has shown no signs of abating, which has culminated in him repeatedly accusing Israel of being a �terrorist state� while praising Hamas as �liberators.�

The revelation that Erdoğan and his close circle continued trade with Israel drew the ire of critics who pointed out the hypocrisy of condemning Israel at the government level while privately pursuing a lucrative trade with the country.

Cihan had previously uncovered the scale of Turkey�s trade with Israel, saying on Nov. 11 that 253 ships have sailed from Turkey to Israel since Oct. 7, carrying cargo such as crude oil, fuel, iron and steel. Cihan also shared a list of ships transporting the goods from Turkey to Israel, emphasizing that the shipments are still ongoing.

Turkish exports to Israel rose by 34.8 pct from November to December - Turkish Minute

www.turkishminute.com - Thu, 04 Jan 2024 posted:

The Turkish (R) and Israeli flags are pictured before a meeting between the Turkish Foreign Minister Mevl�t �avuşoğlu and Israeli businessmen, in the coastal city of Tel Aviv, on May 25, 2022.
AFP

Contrary to Ankara�s political rhetoric on the war in the Palestinian enclave of Gaza, Turkish exports to Israel rose by 34.8 percent last month, according to official figures, as the country�s trade relations with Tel Aviv come under scrutiny.

Israel began pounding Gaza after Hamas militants carried out an unprecedented attack in the country on October 7, killing 1,200 people and taking more than 200 hostage. Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza have so far claimed the lives of more than 22,000 people, according to the local authorities, in addition to leading to vast destruction in the enclave.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced on Tuesday that the country recorded $255.81 billion in exports last year, marking a 0.6 percent increase from the previous year.

According to İbrahim Kahveci, a columnist from the Karar news website, citing official figures, the rise in exports includes a notable 34.8 percent increase in trade with Israel from November to December 2023.

Kahveci pointed out that in December, Turkey�s exports to Israel skyrocketed to $430.6 million, a substantial 34.8 percent increase from $319.5 million in November, surpassing even the pre-October 7 attack level of $408.3 million.

This increase is particularly striking in light of the Turkish government�s critical stance toward Israel during the offensive in Gaza.

President Erdoğan has been vocal in condemnation of Israel, labeling it a �terrorist state.� Despite this, the data reveal that country�s exports to Israel not only continued but significantly increased.

In a recent interview Trade Minister �mer Bolat stated that trade between Turkey and Israel had decreased by more than 50 percent between October 7 and December 4. Bolat attributed this decline to a boycott in Turkey against brands seen as supporters of Israel. However, these claims are at odds with the actual trade figures reported.

Critics have pointed out the government�s contradictory actions, with investigative journalist Metin Cihan highlighting ongoing business relations between certain Turkish companies and Israel. According to Cihan, companies linked to Erdoğan and his allies continued trading with Israel even as the president publicly championed the Palestinian cause.

Cihan�s revelations on X shed light on the involvement of companies such as Limak Holding, MNG Holding and Kolin Holding in trade activities with Israel. These companies, known for their government connections, allegedly used their ports for shipments to Israel and provided services to Israeli government tankers.

Turkish imports from Israel rose by 60.5 pct from October to November

www.turkishminute.com - Mon, 15 Jan 2024 posted:

Contrary to Ankara�s political rhetoric on the war in the Palestinian enclave of Gaza, Turkish imports from Israel rose by 60.5 percent from October to November, according to official figures, as the country�s trade relations with Tel Aviv come under scrutiny.

Israel began pounding Gaza after Hamas militants carried out an unprecedented attack in the country on October 7, killing some 1,200 people and taking more than 200 hostage. Israeli airstrikes and ground attacks on Gaza have so far claimed the lives of more than 24,000 people, according to the local authorities, in addition to leading to vast destruction in the enclave.

According to Alaattin Aktaş, a columnist from the Ekonomim news website, citing data from the Turkish Statistical Institute (TurkStat), the import figures from Israel in November stood at $127.7 million, up from $79.5 million in October. This increase came at a time when tensions in Gaza were escalating, raising questions about the consistency of Turkey�s political actions with its trade policies.

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has been vocal in condemnation of Israel, labeling it a �terrorist state.� Despite this, the data reveal that country�s imports from Israel significantly increased right after the recent conflict started.

Throughout the year, the trade balance between Turkey and Israel has been in Turkey�s favor. However, in November, imports from Israel constituted 42.4 percent of the total trade volume, more than any other month.

In a recent interview Trade Minister �mer Bolat stated that trade between Turkey and Israel had decreased by more than 50 percent between October 7 and December 4. Bolat attributed this decline to a boycott in Turkey against brands seen as supporters of Israel. However, these claims are at odds with the actual trade figures reported.

On Friday Minister of Transport Abd�lkadir Uraloğlu revealed that between October 7 and December 31, 2023, an average of eight ships per day, totaling 701 voyages, were made from Turkish ports to Israel.

Critics have pointed out the government�s contradictory actions, with investigative journalist Metin Cihan highlighting ongoing business relations between certain Turkish companies and Israel. According to Cihan, companies linked to Erdoğan and his allies continued trading with Israel even as the president publicly championed the Palestinian cause.

Cihan�s revelations on X shed light on the involvement of companies such as Limak Holding, MNG Holding and Kolin Holding in trade activities with Israel. These companies, known for their government connections, allegedly used their ports for shipments to Israel and provided services to Israeli government tankers.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2024 09:18

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

The connection between the houthis and what is happening in Gaza appears to exist almost exclusively in the minds of the houthis, and in the minds of people thousands of miles away on the internet, so far as I can tell.

These articles indicate there have already been material impacts on Israel as well as direct attacks. I think that's a connection that's on a lot of people's minds in Eliat.
Israel's Eilat Port sees 85% drop in activity amid Red Sea Houthi attacks

www.reuters.com - Thu, 21 Dec 2023 posted:

JERUSALEM, Dec 21 (Reuters) - Israel's Eilat Port has seen an 85% drop in activity since Iran-backed Houthi militants in Yemen stepped up attacks on shipping in the Red Sea, the port's chief executive said on Thursday.

The Houthis are playing an escalating role in the conflict in the Middle East, also firing drones and missiles at Israel in a campaign they say aims to support Palestinians in the Gaza war, where Hamas is also backed by Iran.

Eilat, which primarily handles car imports and potash exports coming from the Dead Sea, pales in size compared to Israel's Mediterranean ports in Haifa and Ashdod which handle most of the country's trade.

But Eilat, which sits adjacent to Jordan's only coastal access point at Aqaba, offers Israel a gateway to the East without the need to navigate the Suez Canal.

It was one of the first ports to be affected as shipping firms rerouted vessels to avoid the Red Sea after the Houthis disrupted a key trade route through the Bab al-Mandab Strait.

Without Bab al-Mandab "you close the main shipping artery to Eilat Port. And therefore we lost 85% of total activity", CEO Gideon Golber told Reuters.

The United States has since announced a multi-national security initiative to protect the crucial shipping lane.

"We still have a small number of ships for exporting potash, but I believe that with a destination in the Far East they will no longer travel in that direction. So that will also go down," Golber said.

"Unfortunately, if it continues we will reach a situation of zero ships in Eilat Port."

The alternative route takes shipping around the southern tip of Africa, extending voyages to the Mediterranean by two to three weeks which will add extra costs down the line, Israeli officials say.

Golber said the port would discuss with all relevant parties how to maintain operational continuity at Eilat, although it would require income. Still, he was confident they would find a way to do so.

"If God forbid, the coalition countries and Israel lag in finding a solution for the Houthis, unfortunately we will likely have to furlough workers," he said, adding that a small number would be required to service any ships that do arrive.

How Houthi attacks on ships in the Red Sea threaten Israel�s economy

www.washingtonpost.com - Sat, 20 Jan 2024 posted:

In just a few months, Yemen�s Houthis have taken an outsize bite out of global shipping � and have begun to threaten the economy of their stated target, Israel.

While Israel, which relies on the Mediterranean more heavily than the Red Sea, has proved resilient, experts warn that the attacks already pose a threat to Israel�s economy and could come to take a greater toll if they persist in the face of U.S.-led airstrikes.

The Port of Eilat, Israel�s toehold on the Red Sea, has seen an 85 percent drop in shipping activity, its chief executive told Reuters last month. Without a reversal, �unfortunately we will likely have to furlough workers,� he told the Jerusalem Post.

Launching missiles at commercial ships in the Red Sea, a choke point on one of the world�s key maritime routes, turns out to be a sure way to draw the ire of the United States and its allies: Nearly a fifth of freight bound for the U.S. east coast usually passes through the Red Sea, en route to the Suez Canal, per Moody�s, and global shipping giants have begun to send ships the long way around Africa.

The Houthis have maintained that since they began launching strikes, in solidarity with Palestinians under Israeli bombardment in the Gaza Strip, that their primary goal was not to upend world commerce, but to apply pressure on Israel for a cease-fire in Gaza.

Mohammed Abdulsalam, a spokesman for Yemen�s Houthis, told Reuters on Friday that attacks in the Red Sea would remain focused on blockading Israel and retaliating for U.S. and British airstrikes. The attacks, he said, have �represented pressure on Israel only,� not �on any country in the world.�

While most of Israel�s maritime trade passes through Haifa and other ports on the Mediterranean � subject to broader delays in global shipping caused by the Red Sea crisis but not necessarily more so than ports elsewhere � Eilat is a key entry point for some imports from East Asia, including electric vehicles from China, which comprise most of those sold in Israel. Less ability for sellers to build inventory, as fewer cars arrive, could contribute to rising prices, the Times of Israel reported.

As for ships that pass through the Suez Canal to Israel�s busier ports on the Mediterranean, many top carriers have stopped traffic in or out of the corridor, despite a global coalition seeking to provide safe passage for ships, as well as U.S.-led attacks on the Houthis in Yemen. Danish shipping giant Maersk said this month it was diverting all of its vessels south � all the way around Africa � �for the foreseeable future.�

The shipping industry has responded to the Houthis� focus on shipping to Israel. Evergreen, the Taiwanese shipping giant, said last month it would �stop accepting Israeli cargo� immediately �for the safety of cargo, ships and crew.� Maersk last month introduced a surcharge on shipments to Israel to help cover rising insurance costs. Consumers, ultimately, could bear the brunt of higher insurance prices.

Even small changes to the supply chain can pose major challenges for the supply of medical supplies amid an �unprecedented number� of war casualties, said Moshe Cohen, chief executive of Yad Sarah, the largest nongovernmental medical supplies lender in Israel. Delays caused by Houthi strikes could �pose a life-endangering delay of critically needed supplies,� he said in an emailed statement.

Israel�s economy is facing broader obstacles as it deals with the fallout from its war in Gaza, which has killed at least 24,927 people in Gaza and began after the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas killed about 1,200 Israelis. Thousands of workers have been called up to fight.

The Bank of Israel said this month that its forecast for Israeli exports in 2024 was down 1 percent from its forecast in November, when the Houthi attacks picked up pace. The figure excludes diamonds and start-ups, and includes services such as tourism, which has declined amid the conflict. Civilian imports are forecast to fall by 4 percent next year, a 5 percent drop from its expectations in November, according to the central bank. Imports from Asia, which usually route through the southern mouth of the Red Sea, where the Houthis are striking ships, are likely to be the most heavily affected. China is the largest exporter to Israel, making up more than 14 percent of Israeli imports in 2021, according to the Observatory of Economic Complexity, which tracks economic data.
�

Israel Says Unidentified Drone Hits Red Sea City

www.voanews.com posted:

An unidentified drone hit a civilian building in the southern Israeli city of Eilat on Thursday, causing light damage, Israel's military said, and Yemen's Houthi movement said it fired ballistic missiles toward the Red Sea port city.

Houthis say they carried out drone attack on Israeli port of Eilat

www.aljazeera.com posted:

Houthis claim responsibility for drone attack on Israeli port city of Eilat, Red Sea commercial vessel.

Yemen�s Houthi rebel group has said that it carried out drone attacks targeting the Israeli port city of Eilat, as well as a commercial vessel in the Red Sea, as the Iran-backed group steps up attacks that it says are a means of pressuring Israel to end its war in Gaza.

Speaking on Tuesday, Houthi military spokesman Yahya Sarea said the group conducted drone attacks on Eilat and �other areas in occupied Palestine�. Sarea said the group also launched missiles at an MSC United vessel in the Red Sea after it rejected three warning calls.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2024 06:04

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Ikasuhito posted:

It would be kinder to simply put a bullet in their head.

Not really sure what you mean tbh

# ¿ Feb 20, 2024 09:00

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

420 Gank Mid posted:

"Whataboutism" as a defense against anti-imperialist critiques has its roots in white supremacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

The specific term didn't originate in that context, apparently - it came from a letter bellyaching about the immorality of the IRA:
Whataboutism

en.m.wikipedia.org posted:

According to lexicographer Ben Zimmer,[13] the term originated in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. Zimmer cites a 1974 letter by history teacher Sean O'Conaill which was published in The Irish Times where he complained about "the Whatabouts", people who defended the IRA by pointing out supposed wrongdoings of their enemy:

quote:

I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the "enemy", and therefore the justice of the Provisionals' cause: "What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force-feeding, army intimidation?". Every call to stop is answered in the same way: "What about the Treaty of Limerick; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921; Lenadoon?". Neither is the Church immune: "The Catholic Church has never supported the national cause. What about Papal sanction for the Norman invasion; condemnation of the Fenians by Moriarty; Parnell?"

� Sean O'Conaill, "Letter to Editor", The Irish Times, 30 Jan 1974

Three days later, an opinion column by John Healy in the same paper entitled "Enter the cultural British Army" picked up the theme by using the term whataboutery: "As a correspondent noted in a recent letter to this paper, we are very big on Whatabout Morality, matching one historic injustice with another justified injustice. We have a bellyfull [sic] of Whataboutery in these killing days and the one clear fact to emerge is that people, Orange and Green, are dying as a result of it."

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 16:09

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Rust Martialis posted:

The Houthi attacks have also been supremely ineffective

These things would not happen if the actions were "supremely ineffective":
Britain Confronts Fears of a (Gasp!) Tea Shortage

Oil and shipping giants suspend Red Sea operations after Houthi attacks

Red Sea chaos jacks up relocation costs for feds around the world

Turkish exports impacted by Red Sea crisis: �Kızıldeniz�deki g�venlik krizi ihracatta rekabeti zorluyor�

mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 22, 2024

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 17:59

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 10:57

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

And these relate to stopping Israel's actions in Gaza how precisely?

Never mind that it ignores the very real issues raised regarding food supplies in Northeast Africa?

It is causing damage to the actors supporting Israel's genocide. It will not stop until after this support is ceased. It is the most effective sanction I am aware of at the moment. "Supremely ineffective" would describe something like posting on the SA forums, not that.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Feb 22, 2024 19:18

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall