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Morbus
May 18, 2004

Ardennes posted:

The West is going to have to put in more quarters

we're printing them as fast as we can

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Morbus
May 18, 2004

atelier morgan posted:

fissionable materials have a critical mass; that is, there is a theoretical minimum mass of material that needs to be present to make it go from sitting there menacingly to exploding, even if it is 100% purity in a perfect sphere

for pu-239 (the material used in the W54 warhead on the davy crockett recoilless rifle and the us military 'atomic demolition charge' project) that's 10 kg.

so no matter how you design it, it is going to involve a runaway fission reaction of 10 kg of material

i'm not a nuclear physicist and can't do the math myself, but from my lay perspective the minimum possible explosion looks to be at leastwo oklahoma city bombings; somewhere in the 10s of tons of TNT order of magnitude

You can design a nuclear weapon with considerably less than 10 kg of Pu-239. The 10kg figure is a very basic estimate:

1.) It is the "bare sphere" critical mass, meaning there is no neutron reflector around the fissile material: any neutrons which escape the assembly are lost. A neutron reflector can reduce the critical mass to less than half that of the bare sphere critical mass.

2.) It assumes density at standard atmospheric pressure. The entire point of an implosion assembly is to convert a subcritical mass into a critical one by virtue of compression. The critical mass (or any reactivity parameter) scales approximately as 1/C^2, where C is the density ratio (although, for reflected systems the scaling exponent is a bit lower than 2, since the reflector material is generally not compressed to the same ratio as the core). Practical compression systems, where the mass of high explosive is kept to within an order of magnitude or two of the fissile mass, can achieve density ratios of around 1.5-2.0 . The absolute limit for shock compression by high explosive is probably around ~2.

So the amount of Pu-239 needed to make a bomb go bang is substantially less than 10 kg. It is relatively easy to design weapons with 4-5 kg (an often published figure for many American fission triggers). It should be quite possible to design a weapon with even 2 kg, if the implosion system is good and a suitable reflector is used. The absolute minimum amount of plutonium needed to make a bomb is probably between 1-2 kg.

Tritium boosting would ensure that the efficiency of even such a small weapon could still be good. Such a minimum size fission stage may not be optimal for efficiently driving the 2nd stage of a thermonuclear weapon. The size of the required high explosive drivers and reflector may also increase total weight over a system using modestly more fissile mass. That may be why actual weapons seem to use larger than the minimum required fissile mass.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Also if I were in charge of Iran's nuclear weapons program, I would:

1.) Clandestinely develop a robust, tritium boosted implosion system designed for ~1.5-3.0 kg of reactor grade plutonium. "Weapons grade" plutonium isn't needed and doesn't significantly change the critical mass requirements, it's just that reactor grade plutonium has some heat dissipation, radiation, and background neutron issues. These are all irrelevant in a small, boosted weapon, though. This system could be tested without any fissile material to the point of being assured of its reliability. The needed amounts of reactor grade plutonium for several bombs could be recovered by small-scale and difficult to detect chemical reprocessing of small amount of reactor fuel over the course of a decade or so.

2.) Use the above in a conservatively designed 2-stage pseudo Teller-Ulam (really just "Ulam") design where on the order of 10 kg of moderately enriched uranium are compressed by the trigger in #1, possibly with tritium boosting in the secondary as well. The compression achieved by even a lovely radiation implosion device would be more than enough to fission the enriched (but not weapons grade) uranium, and such a two step weapon would be much easier to design than an actual thermonuclear bomb while easily achieving yields in the 20-100 kT range. All the major difficulties of a thermonuclear design (reaching the required pressures in the fussion fuel without excessive pre-heating, achieving ignition in the compressed secondary, optimal size and composition of the high-Z radiation tamper...) are eliminated and even the dumbest, ultra-conservative design will easily achieve sufficient compression to fission the enriched uranium.

The above would be a very effective demonstrator weapon, could be practically deliverable, and could make use of small amounts of clandestinely produced reactor grade Pu and large amounts of enriched but not weapons grade uranium. It would also be a convenient test platform and starting point for a thermonuclear weapon.

Anyway that's my ted talk

Morbus
May 18, 2004

lollontee posted:

tritium boosting, as in a fusion second stage? dont those take up a huge amount of space tho?

No you just put like 2 grams of tritium-deuterium gas right inside the fission core. As soon as your fission assembly begins to go critical (even at the poo poo-tier fizzle stage), it generates more than enough heat to cause a decent number of fusion reactions in the boost gas. This produces a large number of energetic neutrons, which "help along" the fission reactor much faster than would occur if it were limited to the neutrons produced only by its own fission. As the fissioning continues, more heat, more fusion, more neutrons, and so on. So a small amount of tritium (deuterium doesn't count since its so cheap) greatly increases the efficiency of the fission bomb, and also simplifies its design in many ways

Morbus
May 18, 2004

atelier morgan posted:

tritium boosting etc would make the boom more efficient not less, though

useful if you're iran's nuclear program

not so for trying to make a nuclear weapon with the yield of like, 1 kg of dynamite as was posited

oh whoops i thought we were just talking about minimizing fissile material not minimizing yield.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

lollontee posted:

just by virtue of adding lots of neutrons to the mix??? huh, alright, 1-proton, two-neutron, make interesting. how do you make that stable chemically tho? just react the fissile metal with tritium?

I think the usual practice is to have a cavity in the core (making the fissile material a shell rather than a sphere is beneficial for compression anyway) and to inject tritium from a reservoir during arming, since otherwise hydrogen gas diffuses into and out of everything. You could use tritiated + deuterated lithium too, but tritium has a short enough half life that it needs to be periodically replaced anyway, and that's much easier if it's in an external reservoir.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

mawarannahr posted:

seems extremely unlikely that Man and Nature would perfectly align so that a round number like 10 kg would be the official number where it blows up.

also seems extremely unlikely there would happen to be exactly one isotope that can support a fission chain reaction while also being stable enough to persist in earth's crust but here we are.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

There is reasonably good data about things like fission, scattering, and absorption cross sections for Pu-239, since those are important for nuclear reactor design and control, and the data isn't hard to obtain experimentally or theoretically.

A lot of things can be arrived at theoretically with very good accuracy, or will be very similar to uranium. Opacity data at extremely high temperatures, or basically any equation of state data in the ultra high pressure / high temperature regime, tends to be classified and hard to get at. Probably the only secret information that is relevant to calculating the critical mass are some peculiarities about solid state phase transitions in plutonium and Pu-Ga alloys at high pressures. And that stuff isn't really important unless you are trying to really minimize your implosion system. Also, it can probably be computed theoretically with pretty good accuracy.

Fission bombs aren't very complicated and there are no important secrets left. Hard part is really just getting the material, and even then only because it's so capital, labor, and energy intensive.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Filthy Hans posted:

apart from grift, I don't see the point of lighter tanks, the Abrams is 70 tons partially because it carries enough armor and equipment to stop man-portable antitank weapons

anywhere you can airlift a lighter tank, someone else can bring in plenty of weapons that can disable or destroy it

Infantry needs to be mechanized wherever it's possible, and a big, direct-fire cannon is a useful weapon that can't really be replaced by anything else. So, you need a system that 1.) has a big cannon on a turret, and 2.) drives around at some reasonable speed in varied terrain. That's what tanks are for. The armor is really just there because it can be. The fact that you can accomplish #1 and #2 while offering pretty outstanding crew protection (better than what they can have under just about any other circumstances) just turns tanks from good into great.

There is a maximum weight that a tank can have before it becomes useless, and 70 tons is right around the limit. There is only so much protection that can be afforded to a 70 ton tank, and that degree of protection generally precludes reliably surviving hits from modern anti-tank weapons to anything but the front. So, every now and again someone raises the question of whether you really need to bother with all that armor, or if it's better to have a tank that weighs half as much, still protects against most weapons and artillery, but just doesn't try to eat an APFSDS or Konkurs to the face and survive. Maybe, the best way to protect the tank is to just know the dispositions of enemy forces, stay at a reasonable range, and be protected by other friendly assets like short range air defense systems and infantry...

The answer over the ages has been a resounding "meh". The bottom line is that if your logistics can support the heavier tank, and it is physically able to cross bridges, the lighter tank won't really do anything better, and will do some things worse. The light tank may be cheaper, but who cares? Tanks are cheap in general. "bluh buh what about airlifting" never really matters since these stupid loving wars never work out to be the lightning fast combined arms maneuver exercises they are imagined as, and always devolve into chaotic shitpits for, by, and of morons.

Morbus has issued a correction as of 22:47 on Sep 16, 2022

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Frosted Flake posted:

Mortars are supposed to be “the Infantry’s Artillery” and lighter and cheaper (and therefore simpler) than the lightest and cheapest guns of the same calibre.

I think you’ve tapped into something here because I think it shows a departure from what role weapons are commonly understood to serve to the MIC directing their development, for their own reasons.

Ah, but putting a 120mm mortar on a stryker platform *is* lighter and cheaper than putting a 155mm howitzer on a tracked vehicle! So actually it makes perfect sense

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Frosted Flake posted:

My read is that this was political manoeuvring to preserve the relevance of the USMC, but it’s not a serious doctrine, for the reasons you outlined. It maintains the budget, in the same way the attempts to rebrand the USMC as urban warfare specialists from 2003-10 did. They were able to trade on Fallujah for a long time in Washington, but it lead to things like the M27 replacing the M249 SAW in the rifle section as the 249 was “too heavy to carry in Fallujah”.



That weapon only makes sense to me as the Marine’s “brand” being tied to Iraqi urban warfare, and then having to pursue that as a doctrine. It kept anyone from questioning their size and budget for a decade but now they cut infantry section firepower in half for the sake of their own mythology.

The M27 came about mostly from the M249 being a stupid heavy piece of poo poo.

It weighs nearly twice as much as an RPK, about the same as a PKM (!) and nearly as much as an M240 in some configurations. There is also the problem that the entire concept of a light machinegun firing an intermediate cartridge optimized for rifles is a compromise that arguably undermines the most important part of an infantry squad. If for some reason you can't bring or don't actually need an M240, you are arguably not that much worse off just giving everyone or a few people an M27 and calling it a day.

The solution was always to just make a better light machinegun. The M250, against all odds, actually seems to have produced a pretty excellent result in that regard, but by insisting that the machinegun and rifles must use the same cartridge, the accompanying M5 rifle is hilariously overweight (potentially heavier than the aformentioned RPK, lmao).

Morbus has issued a correction as of 01:57 on Oct 5, 2022

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Frosted Flake posted:

It seems like a lot of work just to go back to the C2, BAR, Bren, and forget the reason the FN MAG and Minimi were acquired in the first place. Yes they are heavy.

That’s it, they’re heavy. They’re lighter than the Vickers or M1919, they provide more firepower than their predecessors.

Fine but if your light squad-organic M249 weighs the same as a loving PKM what exactly have you accomplished?

It's not OK for infantry equipment to be egregiously heavier than it needs to be.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

https://www.heritage.org/press/heritage-foundation-releases-2023-index-us-military-strength-gives-us-military-first-ever

quote:

Heritage Foundation Releases 2023 Index of U.S. Military Strength, Gives U.S. Military First-Ever ‘Weak’ Overall Rating

As currently postured, the U.S. military is at growing risk of not being able to meet the demands of defending America’s vital national interests. It is rated as weak relative to the force needed to defend national interests on a global stage against actual challenges in the world as it is rather than as we wish it were. This is the logical consequence of years of sustained use, underfunding, poorly defined priorities, wildly shifting security policies, exceedingly poor discipline in program execution, and a profound lack of seriousness across the national security establishment even as threats to U.S. interests have surged.

:xickos:

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1590326304007933954

drones carrying drones that carry drones that carry

hey what if we use aircraft to drop self-propelled flying machines that steer themselves to a target then explode. someone quick file a patent

Morbus
May 18, 2004


I thought the whole AUKUS deal was that there would be a technology transfer and Austrailia would build the submarines in Austrailia. Due to the entirely foreseeable difficulties with that plan, arising from Austrailia's unique position of being Austrailia, there has been some talk about just building the first one in the US. This guy just seems to be saying they aren't gonna do that, but they may "lend" a largely American crewed sub as a stopgap. AFAIK that is entirely consistent with the original agreement...it never made any sense to interrupt the US Navy's own deliveries to just give one to another country.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

The Oldest Man posted:

*watching maybe the best air assault force in the world get bodied by a bunch of draftees and shoved off their objective with heavy losses thanks to "concentration of force, logistics, and artillery don't stop existing because you came in a helicopter"*

Agreed. You need to arrive in a rocket

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2021/8/13/space-force-dreams-of-using-rockets-to-supply-warfighters

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Votskomit posted:

Are the ruling class people really dumber than before?

age-related cognitive decline is real, and strong, and my friend

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Lpzie posted:

MELT YOUR GUNS , FORGE SHOVELS

Morbus
May 18, 2004

poisonpill posted:

pay more? esprit d’corp? all impossible in modern America, apparently

If you gave every single person in US active military service $1.2 million cash dollars right now, it would cost about the same as the F-35 program, lol.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Frosted Flake posted:

Yeah, I had a meeting on the ramjet thing and I'm curious who planted the story, since the technology has never worked, base bleed and RA shells already exist (and are already marginal in both utility and use), and basically there's no reason for it to be fielded - corps artillery range with less firepower than regular munitions is almost negatively useful, and the range and warhead requirements are already met by MRLS, the precision fires and range requirements are met by Airpower, and I suppose MRLS. Even overlooking all that, supposing you did want a gun-fired solution, there is no reason whatsoever for it to be employed by 155mm guns as opposed to 175mm or 203mm Corps/Army artillery calibre - because they may as well have the payload to be useful. Considering the specialization of the mission, the narrow scenarios where they would be usefully employed, and the expense, there's no reason why this would be a field artillery mission, and therefore field artillery calibre.

Which suggests something like this: a company that makes artillery shells wants to cut in on the business of other companies that make missiles. The task of making a ramjet engine even fit in a loving 155mm shell has never been done satisfactorily, that's without getting into the guidance unit, and so you're left with a payload that's so small, that you're talking about, probably a Hellfire missile or less. In which case, we already have a way to deliver a warhead of that size, accurately, over long ranges, the Hellfire missile. There's no overlap here unless you are in the artillery shell markup business.

Given equivalent form, a shell's weight is effectively proportional to the cube of its calibre, so you can see why to be useful it would require the old Corps guns. Since whichever contractor is pushing this clearly doesn't hold the licenses for them (the NATO 203mm howitzers were largely made by the [nationalized] Rock Island Arsenal, the M107 175mm guns were made by the [nationalized] Detroit Arsenal), we're left with what the MIC produces these days - a product, that fits their product lineup and has a nice markup, not a weapons system that meets a need.

The mission is to make money.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

The Oldest Man posted:

im just going to tell you why you should watch this: this is a hundred million dollar condo skyscraper, in downtown san francisco that is sinking because it wasnt designed right, and that sinking was bad enough to cause panes of glass on the building facade to shatter and fall into the street in high winds

the engineering company brought in to fix this rested the entire structural fix on a series of small steel plates sitting at the bottom of new piles that were installed under the building

the engineer of record does not appear to have done any actual math to determine whether those plates can handle the loads that are on them to support the building

that engineer's name is Ronald Hamburger

But thaaaaat's my life!

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Gresh posted:

I don't know where to post this but Pakistan and Iran have both bombed each other in the last 24 hours lol

it's more of a team-building missile exchange program

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Cindy the SKULL posted:

I think you're all seriously underestimating the ability of the modern imperial state for infiltration, suppression and cop-opting political organizations that would be able to offer an alternative to the ghouls in charge. It's not the 1960's anymore, you can't do any kind of political activity without agent provocateurs and cops tracking your every move, and building a lawfare case against your organization, which you have zero ability to prevent due to the incredible brutality of the police state, which you do not have the ability to match with counter-intelligence.

Just because the empire collapses, doesn't mean you get presented with any alternatives to the slow rotting away of all hope. It's a cop world. That huge cop megapolis they're building in Atlanta? That's the future, a cop future, where every attempt at change is instantly, efficiently and brutally suppressed by the hardening imperial state. The imperialists too, have learned.

you can actually just shoot them op

Morbus
May 18, 2004

stephenthinkpad posted:

Has anyone made a study on the phenomenon of using cheap civilian graded weapons to suck up the expensive and limited ammo of air defense system?

We have the homebrew hamas unguided rockets that can use up the 10x more expensive Iron Dome defense. And then Ansar Allah uses their anti ship missiles to suck up the missiles defense rocket on the navy ships. Ansar Allah probably doesn't even need to use real missiles, they can just strap a dji control module on the largest model plane they can find in the hobbyist shop, program a roundtrip course and send it out on the red sea, the US aegis ship will shoot it down with its precious surface-to-air missile. Surely they will use up the defensive missile in a matter of weeks? What's this tactic called?

Any serious plan to attack an IADS or carrier group or whatever includes

1.) lots of missiles
2.) lots of decoys
3.) having them all arrive in a short time to achieve saturation and let you be as economical as possible with 1 and 2

Even with 1960's technology, the cost of achieving this was much less than the value of ships you could sink. An exocet missile is like 200k. 2000 of them is 400 million, a bargain. The commodification of the electronics and sensors that made these weapons expensive only makes things worse.

The idea that you can just park a vessel or whatever in range of an attacker and shoot down missiles all day has never been correct. The US just hasn't fought a real war in decades, so it's used to getting away with dumb poo poo.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

The Oldest Man posted:

a dji phantom with a firecracker goes off at the base's fence line

fifty guys run out and fire off a thousand rounds of red bag 155mm, every one of them goes home a month later with a tbi

five hundred miles away, a pair of alert f35s scramble from al-asad airbase, both of the pilots go home a month later due to oxygen starvation-induced brain damage

a platoon of big beard and oakley operator qrf guys pile into v22s, all dead during a crash shortly after take off

drat you iran

lmao

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Cerebral Bore posted:

when you're wounded and left on afghanistan's plains
and the burger king convoy is all that remains
just roll to your whopper and blow out your veins
and go to your god like a soldier

lmao

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Gripweed posted:

It did occur to me recently that if anyone in government was smart or gave a poo poo,

Let me stop you right there

Morbus
May 18, 2004

unwantedplatypus posted:

Mortars might be incredibly effective, but have you considered that it's hard to make a grift out of a tube with a spring?

Don't worry, grift is In Everything We Do(tm)

https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/mortars-and-mortar-components/81mm-rcgm/

Morbus
May 18, 2004

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

It can't be that they're running out of infantry weapons, right? Because those should be the easiest to manufacture, and I would imagine there are war stores of M240s and leftover M60s to last until the end of time.

"It can't be that they're running out of 155mm shells, right? Because those should be the easiest to manufacture"

Morbus
May 18, 2004

The Oldest Man posted:

[screaming internally]



Me, very neoliberally: "the second picture. that is the better one"

Morbus
May 18, 2004


NOW WERE TALKIN

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Orange Devil posted:

Hey if we're asking that question we can also ask "why would China invade Taiwan?". We're in RAND lala-land here, I'm just wondering what scenario's these idiots are actually gaming out. They always seem to suppose a Chinese invasion when that's not at all necessary?

The salient features of most analyses, wargames, etc. are:

-Any surface vessels in the general area are going to have a bad time

-China can probably interdict shipping to Taiwan indefinitely, so don't count on being able to resupply them by sea

Now, the obvious conclusion from #1 and #2 is that, yes, if China wanted to exert pressure on Taiwan they could just blockade them and the US couldn't really do much about it. If anyone wasn't convinced of this before, I think operation pRoSpErItY gUaRdIaN should have set them straight.

However, every RANDbrain just jumps from here to "well, that means amphibious landing craft are gonna get hosed, so China would not be very successful at a ground invasion as long we can count on the Taiwanese fighting fanatically and the US flushing half its navy and aircraft down the toilet". Which is probably true, but seems like it misses the point.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Zodium posted:

scandinavian countries are a type of barnacle that grows on empires

lol

Morbus
May 18, 2004

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I was just reading a paper on airborne ASW these days, and discovered that, other than the Russians and Chinese putting SAMs on the masts or periscopes or whatever, no submarines today have a defence against aircraft.

I realize that stealth is their best defence, and nuclear subs never need to surface, diesel boats use snorkels. However, in the Taiwan Strait, the water is so shallow it would not be difficult to envision a situation where Chinese aircraft very quickly detect the presence of a US sub and start dropping sonar buoys, in which case you would think someone has thought of something the sub could do before depth charges and torpedoes start getting dropped.

Oh, they have thought about it. And the answer they came up with is the same answer they always come up with:

enemy aircraft will not be able to conduct ASW operations because the US will have uncontested air superiority in all places at all times

Other than that, ASW operations by aircraft do take time and it's not that easy to find a modern submarine. To really have a good shot, you need a relatively dense array of hydrophones/sonobuoys with a direct sound propagation path to the submarine, and this is hard to accomplish unless you already have it's location pretty well narrowed down

Every now and again you do read some poo poo about active ASW countermeasures, including attempts to spoof or jam sonobuoys (either acoustically or their RF communications). I don't know if any such systems have ever been actuallydeployed, but they are at least plausible.

At the end of the day, people have been developing ASW systems for decades but there haven't been any large scale anti-submarine engagements or really any substantial naval battles at all to truly test them. My general opinion is that regardless of how effective these systems are, the idea of a submarine as a super-expensive, undetectable, unattritable asset is not tenable. In any large scale naval battle, submarines are going to sink lots of ships, and lots of submarines are going to sink.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Justin Tyme posted:

I don't understand the "aha! We will turn the A-10 into a drone!" concept because I dont think (&I could be wrong here) the cost of training a pilot is more than fuel and maintenance, plus you still need to train a pilot, they just sit on their rear end on a terminal instead of a cockpit. I guess robots don't need to maintain flight hours?

It's not just the cost but the time & flight hours, and this is especially an issue with the US/NATO air forces that rely on multi-role aircraft without a lot of GCI where pilots are expected to do everything.

Even if the airframes were attritable (they are not lol), and even if there was the production capacity to keep up with missile/bomb expenditures (lmao), the current US model of pilot training is arguably incompatible with a real, sustained war.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Tempora Mutantur posted:

given the speed and range they operate at, how's guidance on hypersonics supposed to even work?

does it have insanely long range fast sensors or is it all guided externally or just set along a given path to target or what?

Hypersonic weapons (as usually described) are mostly used against fixed targets or ships, and the terminal closure rate in those cases is actually not faster than what is common for many air-air or surface-air missiles. Even at mach 4, you've got 3-4 seconds to make adjustments once the target is clearly resolvable to a vis/IR camera, and longer than that for radar terminal guidance. The missile only moves about 1 meter per millisecond, so the speed of the computers and sensors is not really a problem. Having a very well characterized flight model and control system is the "hard" part, and even then you can do pretty well with simple on-off actuators and bang bang control

If you are relying entirely on GPS/INS things can be harder and depend on the quality of your position data, but for something as expensive as a hypersonic glide vehicle or ballistic missile, almost everyone uses vis/IR or radar terminal guidance because why wouldn't you? They are cheap and reliable.

Morbus
May 18, 2004


*me, after watching the ukraine/russia war intently for the last 2 years*

"you know, we'd really better get to work on self-propelled, autonomous 58mm robot cannons for use by special operators in entry operations"

Morbus
May 18, 2004

zetamind2000 posted:

the Germans were brilliant in all things military (even if they didn't win many wars)"
thread title pls

Morbus
May 18, 2004

rudecyrus posted:

why is vietnam pro-us

its what they call a power move

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Morbus
May 18, 2004

Ignore_Me posted:

no I think some people are pressured by their parents to enlist or are doing so out of some form of punishment or other, and they don’t otherwise actually want to enlist of their own volition so they sabotage a test that is incredibly easy to sabotage

wild take I know

It is not credible for someone to fail the ASVAB unless they are profoundly stupid, or have some kind of serious mental disability. If any halfway normal person scores "far below" the minimum eligibility requirement, it was almost certainly intentional

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