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bessantj posted:What they mention in the video has happened to me, I've had a tory knock my door. it was all I could do to shout "loving tory oval office" before slamming the door and getting some whisky. Dark times. When I was looking after my nan I was literally getting a new nappy onto her when the letterbox flapped, when she was settled watching Lovejoy I went and checked the letterbox and did go out in the street to tell the tory to shove the leaflet firmly up his arse. We had a wee row and if former-MP David Burrows hadn't flapped up to de-escalate the situation it would 100% have ended with that tory tosspot being knocked down. Funny thing is, in that little row the only thing the tosspot said that actually hosed me off was a smug little 'yeah but we're gonna win' and he was totally right, since it was created my nans constituency had always been tory and the press were saying labour were gonna get btfo'd all over, the little oval office actually made me start doorknocking for labour. And then we got a 10,000 swing and against all odds took the constituency with a fresh new 5k majority. I say we should encourage young torys to express themselves and whinge as far and wide as possible, they are their own worst enemy.
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Oct 1, 2019 23:53
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Probably, yes. People are always more receptive to a friendly face than to a distant media, and just giving people a chance to let off steam about what annoys them can be amazingly effective. Labour always tie it up with GOTV drives too, because for every person you can flip from voting for another party there are probably 10 people who just don't vote at all. I'm extremely goony too, 100% prefer just putting lealets through doors, but at the end of 2 hours actual knocking even without having any charm or nouse it does still feel like I've helped sway the dial. The only strategy I ever do is be super polite, if they want to talk then listen to them talk about what is loving them off and then respond with a loose tying of how government actually trying to help them for a change would help with their X problem, which is almost always true and you just have three policies you've memorised that back it up, and that we cannot afford another financial crash like 2008. Basic stuff like 'the kids are alright they just need a fair chance' hits so much harder than you'd think when it's just a person talking directly to another person. Then you all go to the pub after and it's fun. Anyone on the fence or that thinks they are too goony to help should just go for it, if you want the people in your community to still have an NHS in a decade then be brave and help them fight for it.
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Oct 2, 2019 23:26
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Josef bugman posted:Part of me, a dark part I don't particularly like, wants to see the Lib-Dems lose everything in this election. They don't get a single seat. No, they get one seat, and the Greens get two so they have to watch as their centrist balloon collapses like a loving poorly constructed cake. That is an extremely positive urge in a moral sense but materially we want the Lib Dems to actually do quite well as almost all their target marginals are Lib Dem-Tory. Don't forget that the Lib Dems are demonic but the Tories are actual demons, and the Lib Dem voter base has some actually okay people in it. If there are enough Lib Dem MPs to potentially prop up a Lab-Lib coalition that is a far better state than those seats being Tory, and even if the Lib Dem leadership plays the oval office that still swings a few of their decent people voters towards us when the reasons they played the oval office are even gently examined which in coalition discussion they literally have to be.
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Oct 3, 2019 00:04
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:I've decided I hate letterboxes with little brushes in them Good man! I got this weird huge coat with covered pockets big enough to hold the stack of envelopes so you have an extra hand to get the particular envelope in with, but now I hate my dog. No excuse not to take him with me now but as soon as we get to an obnoxious letterbox he always seems to smell something interesting and I'm back to one-handing it again ooh err.
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Oct 3, 2019 22:04
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Gary Younge is legit one of the best assets the Guardian has and I don't know why they don't push him more. If you look back at his articles there's definitely stuff I disagree with but even then he makes his points so well compared to most of the op-ed slime. Honestly if you have a spare hour it's worth reading through his Guardian credits, he's that good mix of forward-thinking but not complacent or catastrophising but also grounded in what is actually provably happening right now. I've got his 2011 book in my read-this-soon pile and need to get on it. It just baffles me that mediocrities like Kettle and Malik get more column inches than him the Guardian is so loving determined to be poo poo it's mindblowing.
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Oct 4, 2019 23:11
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Polls are bollocks etc but honestly that poll is probably true, every establishment shithead and traditional media source making GBS threads on us every single day has an effect, that's why they do it. All we can do is give our time and energy to help push the idea that maybe old women shouldn't literally die in puddles of their own poo poo and blood so the finance cunts can get another tax cut in that brief pre-election period when the press is allowed to lie less and then we just hope enough people are convinced. The libs infesting this thread excluded, we are taking on the most powerful systemic social powers that exist, and they are in fight mode all the time just throwing money. The period right before an election is a darkest before dawn moment don't get discouraged by it being extremely loving dark, the sun can still rise if we're willing to give it a wee push.
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Oct 6, 2019 00:34
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gh0stpinballa posted:probably in a minority here but i think jess phillips has done some good work around the issue of child sexual abuse. it's a massive, massive problem in this country and it's weird leftists don't seem to discuss it much. especially given something like rotherham where there was clearly an organized and systemic operation to exploit working class girls which the local government and police were protecting and participating in. idk she's annoying af and she's a complete liability, but i respect what she does there tbh, and also her confrontational approach to the anti-lgbt parents at that school. I disagree that Jess Phillips has done good work around that particular issue, she's been textbook adequate. But yeah the left has absolutely failed in it's response to Rotherham and the widespread, still spreading issue. The actual left response should be obvious, there is a hateful sub-culture using religion to justify racially targeting vulnerable young women and girls, but it's all been hosed up by woke neoliberalism and the liberal left just refuse to engage with it. There is a core of, my guess, 4% of British voters that quite rightly were politically awoken by the disgusting poo poo that happened in Rotherham and all we have as a response is these idiots that that don't consider 'hey weird coincidence the EDL arose there of all places eh?'. All we have is shitheads calling them facists and wanking off over milkshakes but ignoring working class girls being plied with heroin and gang raped. It's disgusting and makes me hate these cunts that call themselves the left.
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Oct 7, 2019 00:09
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Other than the use of far-right talking points? Like I say, literally the only people bringing religion and race into the Rotherham case are Tommy Robinson and his band of merry fuckwits. Not to dredge it up but you're either lying or uninformed, girls were targeted because their religion was Sikh and girls were targeted because their race was white, it's in the court documentation. And gently caress off implying that I've ever tried to drag or subtly introduce race into anything either, morality is not race contingent. forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/libcomorg/status/1181244072784207872?s=20 Tempted to get arrested at the weekend tbh.
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Oct 7, 2019 23:07
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You'll be safe, the Old Bill never arrest your type. Not even a whisper of intellectual or moral curiosity or truth-seeking or even making your point online, astounding. Do you think the police regularly arrest people for posts? Do you think they track the ethnicity of forum posters? What are you even trying to say?
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Oct 7, 2019 23:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:Don't think they will for Trump. He's that one thing they can never forgive. He's rude and doesn't take them seriously. It's also dynastyism, Bush was a scion and Trump is an interloper. It doesn't matter that in terms of policy Trump and Bush are identical except Trump has more leeway for non-manifesto poo poo extras. Like if we look at the parallel universes there was a potential that a government option called Trumpcare could have happened, there was a potential that Trump Wage could have passed fight for 15 or whatever, obviously unlikely but if you are an absolute lib that potential nazbol angle adds a huge extra layer of fear. I think you're right but it's not just that he was rude and owned them, it's that even a misplaced cynical hope for potential change is suspect in itself and so they must inherently poison the legacy, even though Trump is functionally a continuation of Bush.
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Oct 8, 2019 23:36
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bump_fn posted:who is colleen rooney who is rebekah vardy why are people retweeting this sorry i’m cstching up on the timeline It's actually quite endearing, celeb A been getting their doings leaked to the Sun so they Tyrion Lannistered it, blocked everyone except the suspect and then said dumb fake poo poo so if that dumb fake poo poo was in the papers boom, they know the leaker. Celeb A owned celeb B and lots of people had fun with it on twitter.com. I don't care about it personally but all strength to people who do and it certainly diminished the Sun for a few people.
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Oct 9, 2019 23:24
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jabby posted:Genuine question, what would be the best way for the West to tackle the Kurds/Turkey thing? Obviously abandoning them like Trump did is going to lead to a massacre/humanitarian crisis, but staying in the region as a permanent peacekeeping force is hardly going to work. Threaten Turkey with something unless they find a political solution? What's the best answer? It's a loving quagmire, there's no good option, but I think green zones providing care for displaced people but tacitly also open to Kurdish fighters, like of course we help with injuries but also when they leave they somehow also have useful intel and whisper it know about arms caches maybe someone has hidden. I get the argument that if you're gonna get in a war then get in it properly but there is definitely a legit justification for a military presence supporting controlled areas even if we are technically uninvolved.
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Oct 10, 2019 00:20
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Noxville posted:https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/1182389516365160449?s=21 The lib dems don't actually want to stop brexit, they want rejoining the EU to be their powerful political project for the next 15 years, get on my level this is conspiracy theory crap but it's also 100% whats actually happening.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:08
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Bobby Deluxe posted:It's a loving trap and he stepped into it, but honestly I don't really see how it's possible for a Labour MP to make a statement about it and not gently caress both themself and the party. The only way is to call it as the smear campaign it is and go guns blazing 'if our detractors actually cared about protecting vulnerable minority groups they would address X-example-of-the-horrific-poo poo-they-are-doing-to-disabled-people' is the most obvious and actually noble example. The antisemitism crap is cynical bollocks, it's a continuation of their previous smear campaigns and anyone with a moral core and half a brain rolls their eyes when they see the latest headline saying 'some board of deputies oval office slams corbyn' or some arsehole columnist drops a 'of course labour would know a lot about scapegoating' line in their latest effluence. Stop giving it any legitimacy, just drop the stats factsheet and call them lying little cunts.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:20
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namesake posted:Their inability to fashion a platform outside of the UKs relationship to the EU absolutely means this will happen but they will also see the popularity of trying to rejoin the EU when it means the Euro and no rebate so they're digging their own grave while also dragging the rest of the country along with them. After Corbyn did his big upset Blair wrote this thing like 'I don't understand the British people anymore' and it was funny because 100% of the new voting demographics, that had honestly a very minor voting impact, were demographics New Labour created themselves, by cultivating inequality they created their own bizarre monsters. You're dead right it's the same with the Lib Dems, they are making these lovely choices based on the current circumstances and not thinking about the possible negative knock-on effects. It's just like the coalition; the most pro-EU party did some despicable loving austerity, made everyone hate the status quo and them in particular, and then because the superstructure is anti-left that energy had to go somewhere so it went to brexit and the Lib Dems got owned.
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Oct 10, 2019 23:50
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Rarity posted:I think you are. XR is a middle-class liberal protest movement which much like the FBPE crowd was born from people who have never had to stakeout a political identity before. They've been brought up believing the world works for them because until the world has worked for them. They're still in the middle of processing the state won't always go their way and they don't know how to react to that yet. But they've grown up in a world where asking nicely and being respectful is all you need to do to get what you want so that's what they're going with. However their tactics are highly dangerous for rank and file members, especially those of working class and BAME backgrounds which is something they have zero acknowledgement for. As I said in the podcast there are some positives about what XR have achieved but at the end of the day the fact that you're putting your own people at risk of losing their jobs, their finances and their lives is at best ignorance and at worst active callousness. I despise the middle class liberal intelligentsia and their insipid creative-writing-as-reality-but-also-futurism? worldview more than most here, and you are absolutely correct that XR has that middle-classness deep in it's core with everything that implies, but you are reaching like crazy from that. Biggest thing is you say XRs tactics are dangerous to more vulnerable people and the sacrifices those people make aren't acknowledged, that is the opposite of the actual material truth. XR makes a binary distinction between those supporters that want to stay within the law and those that are willing to break the law and be arrested, both groups are taught exactly what the bounds are and both groups are supported and appreciated. I've been through that little talk in one of their tents and you are either lying or uninformed with your point there. And like, the second referendum movement is obviously middle-class as gently caress just like the no-deal movement is actually middle-class as gently caress, the anti-Iraq war movement was middle-class as gently caress, the suffragettes were middle-class as gently caress, the anti-PFI organising was middle-class as gently caress, loving Marx as he lived was middle-class as gently caress. There is obviously a thing that people who engage with working class people but also have enough material security that they have time to learn about and organise around particular issues do actually do things, you can whinge about that, I certainly do I'm full on dictatorship of the proletariat even if that proletariat is problematic, but gently caress off pretending the meaningful climate movement when/if it finally comes won't almost certainly begin being middle-class as gently caress. And if you don't think XR are doing well then presumably you're organising the better version eh. Edit: "believing the world works for them because until the world has worked for them" gently caress off with that bollocks, the leadership maybe, but the actual XR lumpen peeps on the street? You're talking bollocks and smearing precariat as posh libs. Vitamin P fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 22:55
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forkboy84 posted:Does Nick Robinson have business dealings with Erdogan or summat? Whatever the worst you might assume about Nick Robinson is, assume it's true, that axiom has always held. oval office still hasn't released if he has money invested in private healthcare companies, he was asked it directly on air and promised he would disclose it, that was loving years ago but not a peep. Dishonest little student-tory lizardman.
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Oct 11, 2019 23:09
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ThomasPaine posted:This is a common gotcha but he really wasn't, he was destitute as gently caress most of his life and relied on handouts from Engels. He lived in a hovel and ended up thrown out by the landlord several times. There's a reason he wrote capital in the British museum. Right but 'handouts from Engels' went a long way and yes it's why I said 'lived as' rather than 'was'. You cropped that bit out of a bigger post though and not to attack the UKMT caricature but would appreciate your take on the point rather than Marx as man.
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Oct 11, 2019 23:25
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xtothez posted:The Manchester attacker has now been assessed and detained under the Mental Health Act. Have the police ever been know to treat terrorism offences as a mental health issue before? They all got back from Joker and like it really made them think you know. But no, I dont know specifics about particular cases but very strongly doubt it's the first time a possible terrorist had mental health involved in their detention. There isn't usually a neat either/or between mental illness and ideology when it comes to terrorist attacks, ideological groups often prey on mentally ill young men to do the actual attacks, stochastic terrorism is sane people propagating an ideology that an unrelated, often insane person then acts on. Attacks like Manchester Arena or Christchurch that seem to be clear-headed ideology are comparatively rare. Also I don't think anythings come out to suggest it was a terrorist attack, might well have missed something though. ThomasPaine posted:Still, I worry that Corbyn stepping down following a poor electoral showing could prompt a successful coup and throw us unceremoniously back to 2015 hellworld. The right can't coup anything without the membership being disempowered and that can't be done while the left have a candidate. The danger isn't a coup it's a lovely weak compromise leader that wants to 'bridge the divide within the party', for which read drop any left-wing position if the Daily Mail tells them to 3 days in a row. The problem is there legit isn't a deep bench of next-gen left people because that was the entire internal project of New Labour, deny positions to anyone that wasn't a useless lib. After Corbyn, be it because he steps down or because he's assassinated, a huge factor is the 2015 austerity bill, Harman as acting leader told Labour to abstain and the 48 MPs that told her to get hosed and opposed it are the only legitimate options, list of them here https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/welfare-bill-who-are-the-48-rebel-labour-mps-who-voted-against-it-10403502.html That bill is especially relevant not just because it was loving disgusting, but because it happened after Cameron got the surprise majority. With hindsight we now know it was because of the EU referendum manifesto promise, but at the time people didn't know how strong the depth of anti-EU feeling was, that's why the referendum result surprised everyone, at the time people thought the tories won because of poor-hating. So Harman and the other cunts acted from that utterly dumb and flawed assessment and officially didn't oppose one of the most morally disgusting bills that has passed through Parliament in recent history. The MPs that still voted against it probably have souls but also haven't bought in entirely to the game over establishment-logic hivemind, there's lots of them I don't like but anyone not on that list is 100% out of the running for decent people morally and political-nous practically. I like Clive Lewis but he doesn't seem to want it. Khan has been positioning himself for labour leadership too early. Abbott has too bad a rep and is legit bad at interviews. Lammy is maybe in ten years, but he needs to get way better at communicating concepts like black diaspora or to stop talking about it, and he has the Iraq war around his neck. The hot gossip is Rebecca Long Bailey, she has a decent record but has hardly set the world on fire and she's not currently a strong campaigner, plus the Guardian has been pushing her as Corbyn heir for a few months now and that makes me very suspicious. If Clive Lewis actually steps up then he's my guy, if Bailey turns left then she'd be a strong choice, otherwise it's writing in McDonnell territory,
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Oct 12, 2019 22:56
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Josef bugman posted:What do people think is the key to a good life? The bottom three of these  If you have those you're able to start figuring out what a good life means to you.
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Oct 13, 2019 10:39
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I feel like such a boomer for not knowing who the Weetman is.
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Oct 13, 2019 22:56
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Sanitary Naptime posted:You’re missing out on a self expanding library of unparalleled self owns. a learn-to-code joke posted in mid october of 2019, you aint kidding dont see how shes That Bad compared to the wider fbpe dross though, all of them are poo poo, she seems to be more clout craving poo poo than common or garden lib poo poo but thats no sin
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Oct 13, 2019 23:27
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Wait is Weetman the loving knob that put up an insanely obnoxious video saying how great it felt to vote for herself? I might be confusing melts but if so gently caress that piece of poo poo.
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Oct 13, 2019 23:32
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OwlFancier posted:It's still really weird to me that eastern europe would produce nazis but I guess if Israel can do it it shouldn't be that surprising. Israel is like the perfect cauldron to produce nazism, it's a religion but also sort of an ethnicity? made into a state that has the explicit backing of the US war machine, I'm constantly surprised that Israel isn't even worse than it is and the local form of Corbynistas/Bernie Bros/woke leftist types within Israel deserve more credit than they get in holding back the most evil flailings of that lovely country. But on eastern europe, Douglas Murray joins the likes of Andrew Adonis in that I disagree with them about 90% of their world-view but occasionally I'm listening to shitlib radio and they actually say the thing my brain is screaming for someone to loving say so as a result I have to listen to them and Murray is absolutely right, eastern europe got materially hosed by feudalism, nazism and communism and the most modern neoliberalism offered was 'hey do tough work in other countries for good pay, barely see your families, and also suffer some racism while you're doing that work'. Eastern european countries were never able to buy into the idea anglo/franco/germanic countries could of 'how bad can it really be dont worry trust your local blair', they have a stark history of yes it can be extremely loving bad, the apparently contradictory support for overarching stable economic power bloks and strong social, frankly psychosocial, conservatism makes perfect sense. That's very obviously not the same as nazism calm yourself. Vitamin P fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 23:41
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Pesky Splinter posted:https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1183874013476610048  I think a whole lot of XR peeps just got radicalised.
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Oct 15, 2019 00:09
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gh0stpinballa posted:looking increasingly like XR really was some kind of intelligence op What's led you to that galactic brain take? Seems real dumb.
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Oct 15, 2019 22:07
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Khan is such a loving useless melt It's not enough to not be actively doing dumb evil Boris poo poo, he needs to actually try and do good things as well. God bless the hopper fare it's super logical but if you aren't someone that gets 2 buses to work or school he's materially done nothing. And now he launches this housing revolution bollocks when he barely even tweeted about it even as a sexy new mayor with clout. Throwing XR under the bus like he's thrown every other left-wing idea under the bus, oval office wants to be Prime Minister so he can keep not doing anything but at at a higher rank. Obviously gonna vote for him again but hosed if I'm gonna knock on doors for him again.
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Oct 15, 2019 22:55
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Praseodymi posted:Jo Swinson on BBC breakfast saying that a 'people's vote' has been Lib Dem policy for 3 years. She was on LBC too, we tuned in halfway through and my mum legit thought she was a member of the public caller, she's so terrible if she's remotely put on the spot. Labour always had a series of not-quite-impossible-qualifiers before they would support a second referendum so you're not being totally gaslit, but she's ignoring that Labour recently made second ref a policy and lib dems stopped having second ref as a policy so it is still incredibly dishonest of her.
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Oct 16, 2019 21:32
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CGI Stardust posted:https://twitter.com/stellacreasy/status/1184536238994407425 What would that mean in practise, that they just let scummy little Abortion - Discreet With No Credit Check Financing Options Available! clinics operate? That's bad but it's hardly shutting down the safe processes right? Am I missing something?
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Oct 16, 2019 21:44
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Darth Walrus posted:The DUP are hardcore quiverfull Protestants. They're giving them licence to firebomb anyone they even suspect of providing abortions. I'm sure there's more laws that would be relevant to the firebombing of clinics than just the recent abortion regulations.
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Oct 16, 2019 21:53
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Guavanaut posted:There are no safe processes in NI at the moment other than "travel to England and get a BPAS appointment" or "have a friend learn to build and use a Del Em." Are you saying the DUP is kicking off about how the bendy bananas custom rules must be exactly the same as mainland UK but something as huge as abortion access being the same as mainland UK is just 'nah we ain't doing that'? I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but that would be stunning. Pre-emptive edit: I googled it and jesus loving christ I apologise, am leaving the previous bit as a testament to me being way naive about how lovely NI is to women
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Oct 16, 2019 22:11
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RockyB posted:George Monbiot posted a Guardian column earlier about intending to get himself arrested today. Wonder how that worked out for him. He probably did get arrested, spoilers.
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Oct 16, 2019 23:05
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jabby posted:If Johnson gets his deal though and the Lib Dems are able to blame Brexit on Labour MPs who escape any form of sanction, the election will be a bloodbath. Calm yourself Johnson isn't getting his deal through.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:29
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bump_fn posted:what’s the logic of giving the tories a win by voting for their deal for any labor mp 1. For MPs in Leave constituencies if this doesn't pass it's extension then GE at which some possibly lose their seats and being an MP owns, they want to keep doing it. 2. For lovely neolib MPs that were tempted to join the Lib Dems there is a huge incentive for them to vote for the deal. The Lib Dem leadership want brexit to happen but not to be seen responsible for it, a Lab MP that helps brexit through 'on principle' or 'because Corbyn is secret Leave ultra bully' is owed a favour by the Lib Dem leadership, and they've already shown they are prioritising defectors from other parties over long-term Lib Dem members for their competitive seats. 3. The Remain movement has genuinely been a bit crap and low-energy since the Benn Act passed and some MPs are legit rudderless, they respond to what's happening at the time and Remain have not been projecting well recently. I honestly think there could be parliamentary votes swung by if there's a bit of sunshine and some good signs on the march tomorrow.
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Oct 18, 2019 20:31
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:If we get the extension then I'd hope Corbyn goes for a VONC on the basis that no-one actually wants this deal. If we get the extension then it's 100% VONC, the only reason Boris hasn't been slapped with a GE is because it would suspend Government and we would no-deal by default. The moment a GE can be called without it also causing a no-deal It's Happening.
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Oct 18, 2019 20:48
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Brony Car posted:I was told that Boris is a clown, but it sounds like he’s got the advantage of being more shameless than than everyone else. Sounds like a lot of other MPs have to contort themselves to fit how conflicted Brits are as a whole about Brexit. What a mess. The old truism that a dictator negotiates better than a democrat has 100% held true this whole episode, when Johnson did his YOLO negotiation style and suggested he legit didn't give a poo poo about having no democratic mandate he has the power gently caress you, suddenly the deal that the EU said for almost a year was inviolate and couldn't be changed did get changed. Just like the original deal was pro-EU because T-May had to answer to a democracy and the EU didn't so the EU was stronger. You're absolutely right that Boris being shameless has benefitted him. The left-wing critique of the EU hinges entirely on the question that where exactly is the point that the EU is even able to feel shame or democratic response? Where is the culpability and is there a specific interruption point in its processes? Hint it's nowhere, the EU is poo poo. Vitamin P fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 18, 2019 |
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Oct 18, 2019 21:29
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Sulphagnist posted:Psst, the EU basically didn't give an inch of ground in the new deal. It's just the May deal except instead of the entire UK being in the backstop (to avoid DUP opposing the deal) Northern Ireland is in the backstop instead, which for the EU doesn't really matter because either way Ireland isn't hosed. Also the political declaration was fine-tuned so that the future relationship got downgraded to a free trade agreement. Yeah I was trying to point out how the EU did reopen what they explicitly called an unopenable deal but accidently implied that the Boris deal is at all better than Mays, it isn't better in any way beyond selling better at home. The point was the EU lies literally every single day and there is no accountability mechanism when they do. Vitamin P fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 18, 2019 |
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Oct 18, 2019 22:08
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:That's quite the take. Whose interests has the EU violated in dictatorial rampage when negotiating either of these deals? It's obviously impossible to know, that's my point. The European Commission and so the leadership of the European Council are entirely unelected, they have no link, even momentarily which would produce polls, to actual people and their actual interests. If the EU, and be real we're talking about the EC, is stepping on people then what is the mechanism by which the people would be able to voice their displeasure? There isn't any but if we then go to secondary indicators then the EC more often than not does not come off well. If you want the most obvious specific example of peoples interests being stamped on despite their democratic stance being counter then Greece in the lead up to the Troika bailout and every single day the Greek people have suffered since.
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Oct 18, 2019 22:21
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jBrereton posted:The European Commission is made up of people proposed by the democratically elected governments of Europe whose heads of state form the European Council. Even when trying to stan the EU as democratic you didn't even mention the EP lol. You are proscribing a legitimacy-by-proxy to justify the EC. The makeup of the EC was not decided by democracy as the conception of it's most important roles were created between relevant national elections. The roles have since outlasted the democratic governments that rubberstamped them. The best allegory and also true conception was imagine jobs were given to people because Thatcherite or Blairite governments didn't nope them and didn't give their populaces any say. Then those jobs were passed along based on the internal structures those existing internal leaders created. It's a recipe for poo poo leadership with no system of accountability and that is exactly what the EU is, and the shittiness multiplies because the only interference the working class ever has is violence or democracy and the EC literally, explicitly does not have democracy but capital class lobbying is allowed and extremely influential. Like oval office are you seriously trying to argue the citizen of France or Luxembourg has the same level of influence on the EU processes as they do on their own national processes?
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Oct 18, 2019 23:16
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OwlFancier posted:If you think that the representative democracies we live in aren't particularly democratic then it seems like you'd have to have even more objection to institutions elected by the results of those flawed democracies. I think the representative democracies are much, much better than the EU systems justifying themselves as legitimate downflow of them. You're absolutely right that at a certain point the democratic legitimacy is abstracted and disenfranchised to the extent that it's not democracy anymore.
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Oct 18, 2019 23:31
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