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Grizzled Patriarch posted:lol the Aerith house sneaking section is sadistic with these movement controls. I had to completely tap-tap-tap Cloud along pixel-by-pixel to get around the sudden garden of trash that erupted on their landing.
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Apr 12, 2020 09:14
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I like to imagine that Aerith intentionally strewed all that junk around after Cloud went to bed, like Macaulay Culkin setting traps in Home Alone.
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Apr 12, 2020 09:20
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So I finished this the other night, and I gotta give them credit for doing something really ballsy and creative. The implementation of the last chapter left something to be desired, but the rest of the game was so amazing that I can let it slide. I do wish they reined in the over-the-top superpowers in the last chapter, though. Like, Cloud had previously been a guy that was mostly normal, except extra strong (leaping pretty high and swinging his two ton sword around) and durable (could fall from the plate and survive with a bit of handwaveyness) and agile (leaping from one motorcycle to another). But in the end, he is literally teleporting around like a Dragon Ball Z character while cutting buildings in half. It was the only time I was laughing at the game while rolling my eyes. It does kinda feel like that last chapter was made by an entirely different team or director than the whole rest of the game. But I found the fights great and I'm now more in love with all the characters than I ever was with the original, and so I'm totally on board for round two. I sort of wonder if the scene with Zack was just kind of shorthand for people familiar with the 7 lore that "killing the fate ghosts will have repercussions across time and realities, but can result in tragedies being averted", and not that Zack is actually going to show up in THIS reality. Like, in the FF7 cosmos, there are parallel dimensions, but the fate ghosts kept them all pretty much in a parallel line- with them out of the way, the dimensions will all start branching off at different points and going in totally random directions. The game goes out of its way to show Zack surviving is in a different "timeline", and trying to bring characters from other timelines into the Remake narrative seems like it would make the story WAY too messy. Hope I'm not retreading things that have been covered a million times, but I gave up on catching up with this thread around page 47. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Apr 21, 2020 |
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Apr 21, 2020 09:09
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Necrothatcher posted:Part of the problem with destiny ghosts as antagonists is that it's never defined exactly what they want to achieve. There's this nebulous sense of them preserving fate, but to what end? Plus you can't really emotionally identify with the desires of unknowable destiny ghosts. Most of that goes for Sephiroth in this game too. I mean, the game tells you that they're manifestations of the planet's will, and that they're enforcing a pre-ordained course of events. The "flashback" (flashforward?) snippets they give characters makes it clear that the course of events is the original FFVII timeline. At least for a player who knows the original VII story, it's not hard to extrapolate that the planet is trying to make sure that the course of events where Sephiroth is defeated and Meteor is destroyed without wiping out all life on the planet comes to pass. For new players, the game gives some motivation in Barret's line about, "if we're headed for a bleak future, they're going to make sure it happens?" The game has been hammering that Shinra is killing the planet and that we've got this supersoldier psycho rampaging around, so presumably the audience is meant to think that defeating the ghosts is necessary to save the world.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:12
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I don't know if anyone linked it before, but this article talks about the whole "pressures of a remake", and touches on VIIR and how the plot was based around these pressures and expectations: https://kotaku.com/what-we-remake-1842868274 And I'd have to find the quote Onmi posted ages ago, but it's directly from the developers saying they wanted to change things specifically to evoke those same feelings in fans that the fans had playing the original. If they made a pure remake, people would say "ah, this is nostalgic, how nice" but would provide no other real emotions. The only way they could provide more, to evoke wonder and mystery and suspense, is by making it so the future is uncertain, so that the stakes aren't fully known. They're trying to give the fans something, not to just masturbate for their own pleasure.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:54
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Here it was:Onmi posted:Just to post more to head off the "NOMURA!" Rage train, like... everyone involved is on board with this stuff. I legit believe they were trying to change things to make the game more engaging and evocative, rather than "we want to make our own fanfiction, and TRICK the world into playing it by calling it a 'Remake'", while twirling their mustaches.
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Apr 21, 2020 19:58
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Zaa Boogie posted:So I've been thinking about this. See, I took it from the original game and the Remake that Sephiroth is so mixed up with Jenova that he is inherently alien to the planet. In the original, he doesn't join the lifestream even when "killed", and maintains his consciousness and independence, even if he can absorb information from and "feed on" the lifestream. In the remake, Aerith talks about the whispers basically "crying out" and controlling fate, but that they don't affect Sephiroth. She says something like, "He doesn't hear them. They're raindrops rolling off his back." I think that he isn't affected by the whispers personally, but he can't change the course of the planet because anything he tries to do differently, the whispers just come in and "correct". I'd have to watch the end again to pay more attention to Sephiroth "absorbing" the whispers. But I think it's like the lifestream- he planned to sit in the middle of it and consume it all to gain tremendous power, even if he can never become part of it because he's so alien. Maybe the whispers can't affect him, but he can still "consume" them to take their power.
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Apr 21, 2020 20:55
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guts and bolts posted:Of note is that, if you are trying for an unseen dress for Tifa, you have to do all of the sidequests and then beat the Chapter for your decision to count. Doing all the sidequests is a prerequisite for picking Tifa's dress, and story progression does not save unless you complete the chapter wholly. I think if you don't make the choice, she defaults to the "Mature" dress. So if you haven't gotten that one yet, you should be able to skip sidequests and just make it to the end of the chapter.
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Apr 21, 2020 21:16
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Instead of a Tifa/Scarlet slap fight, they have a Tifa/Scarlet slap fight- except Scarlet is in a 10-foot tall mecha exosuit. With High Heels.cheetah7071 posted:Speaking of this, did OG FF7 have a better explanation for why the party decides Sephiroth is worth dropping everything to pursue than Aerith cryptically and suddenly getting a message from the planet that he's bad news because that part was pretty weak in the remake It was similar to Aerith's thing, but Cloud said it instead. He basically just goes "Only Sephiroth could have done this. Guys, I need to deal with this. Sephiroth is a much, much bigger risk to the planet than Shinra could ever be." And everyone else was like, drat, guess we better help out with that then.
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Apr 21, 2020 23:43
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Necrothatcher posted:With squeaky helium voices! Do you mean the Zack thing? Because the game slapped a potato chip bag in front of your screen for like 3 seconds to show you that this is a different universe, with a different Stamp. Killing the boss seems to have repercussions that affect all timelines, including a different timeline where Zack now lives. It doesn't mean that Zack is now alive in the timeline we've been following in Remake.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:26
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Necrothatcher posted:Biggs Maybe he didn't die in this universe, and was just seriously injured and got rescued. Maybe the Biggs that survived is in another timeline. We don't know. And in any event, whether Biggs lives or dies is a pretty drat minor change in the grand scheme of FF7, just like Wedge living or whether President Shinra was pre-stabbed when we arrived in his office or post-stabbed, or how Cloud ended up in a dress. People would not be getting bent out of shape about those little details. People ARE getting bent out of shape about the terror of the entire series BECOMING some convoluted silly mess now that the developers have told us: We're not going to stick the original plot exactly. 
Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Apr 22, 2020 |
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Apr 22, 2020 00:31
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Necrothatcher posted:If your argument is "well maybe that one scene took place in another timeline" I don't think it's a train of thought that's going places. I mean.... that's explicitly what it is. That was the whole point of showing us Stamp being a different dog. What do you think that meant?
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Apr 22, 2020 00:36
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Man, you just ruled out like half of all fiction and 90% of fantasy/sci-fi/JRPGs there.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:43
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Necrothatcher posted:but I suspect it's only going to get worse. And by the way, you just made my point- you're upset about what you suspect is going to happen more than anything that has happened.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:46
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Necrothatcher posted:They just wrote themselves a permission slip allowing them to do whatever they want. Having seen that ending and looking back at the writing team's work for the last 20 years I don't think it's too much of a reach to predict that nothing good will come of this creative freedom. And that's fine, you can believe that and fear that, and you may absolutely be right. My point in the other thread, where this all started, is that people are really upset about how the end boss just wrote the developer's a blank check for the NEXT game, and are afraid they're going to gently caress it all up. Nothing that happened in this game changed anything much from the original, in the current story, so far.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:52
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Necrothatcher posted:Our characters killed an abstract concept in outer space. And how has that changed where the party ends the Midgar portion of the FF7 story? You blew up two reactors, Sector 7 got crushed, Aerith got abducted, you staged an assault on the Shinra tower, where you rescued Aerith and recruited Red XIII, President Shinra got killed and Rufus took over, Sephiroth ran off with Jenova, and your party has escaped Midgar to give chase. We're right where the original game left us. I mean, we killed lots of fantasy beasts and ghosts and monsters and robots we didn't kill in the original, but none of them matter to the overarching plot.
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Apr 22, 2020 00:59
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They're saying the ending was not, in fact, objectively poo poo, but was something that you, subjectively, really dislike. And that you're kind of overreacting when, as you said, all the other courses presented were fantastic. Maybe you shouldn't go home and write a 1* yelp review about the lunch you haven't eaten there tomorrow because you're sure, based on how much you hated last night's desert, that the entire kitchen staff are horrible imbeciles.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:18
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I thought the big fight against the Prime Whisper or whatever sucked rear end..not just mechanically but also it was just too out for me for the first act. I get they needed some huge thing to end the game on though so whatever. This is how one expresses rational criticism. State the things you subjectively dislike and then evaluate how much the actual tangible badness from those things has impacted you.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:27
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Fat Lowtax posted:Was that "The Arsenal" mech boss fight towards the end bad...on purpose? I actually thought it was pretty good. It really telegraphed most of its terrible attacks, and pulling up the tactical menu I could quickly identify a target to zap with magic to cancel the attack, or when I should hide behind cover. I did have to use one phoenix down after my characters got stuck between it and a wall after its first charge attack and I got ground up before I could get out, but other than that it went smoothly.
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Apr 22, 2020 01:40
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lezard_valeth posted:I want a Vincent fan to sit down with me and explain what they find/found so interesting about him, because as an optional character he was pretty barebones in the original unlike Yuffie, and unlike Zack he doesn't have an EU game that people fondly remember on which to lean on. I mean, mechanically he's pretty decent. He's long-range, he has a couple weapons with 255% accuracy, so you can pair it with Deathblow for 100% accurate critical hits every turn for free, and he is tied with Cait Sith for highest magic behind Aerith and Cloud, so he can be both good with magic and physicals. His Soul Breaks are pretty lovely, though.
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Apr 22, 2020 06:47
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Haha, there's an NPC in Sector 7 talking about the new production of Loveless- "the ending's a bit different, but.... you'll understand!"
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Apr 22, 2020 07:19
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Well, we're seeing it from outside, while we normally see it from the inside. Midgar has the central portion inside the "wall" all the reactors are built along. But they also seem to have been expanding beyond the wall, and seeing it from the outside perspective with the half-finished-looking plate sections beyond the wall looks weird compared to the perspective we're used to.
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Apr 23, 2020 10:06
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See, in all this discussion of "will Aerith die/won't she", I think people miss an underlying plot hole/problem that has been raised by the whole "time travel/future awareness thing." In the original game, Sephiroth is cocky as poo poo and doesn't perceive the party as a threat at all. Cloud is an asset because he can be manipulated into accomplishing things like obtaining the black materia, and so Seph strings them along on purpose. When Aerith decides to go summon Holy, Sephiroth comes right out and says "uh oh, this one's going to be a problem. I better do something about that." And then he kills her. It's not a challenge for him- he could've done it any time he wanted. She died exactly when he felt like she should die. Now flash forward to Remake- Sephiroth is just as cocky, and just as capable of showing up and shanking someone exactly when he feels like it. The time ghosts would keep them alive, sure, but they're gone now. If Sephiroth believes Aerith needs to die because now he's future aware, why would he wait until the Ancient City? He can pretty much apparate at will and just stab her whenever he feels like it.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:15
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Flopsy posted:Yeah but the big thing here is Aerith getting sent to lifestream essentially grants her godlike power. If Sephiroth is future aware wouldn't he realize killing her regardless if she summons holy or not would make her a player on par with himself? She's literally the epitome of "My death is just the beginning" except for the good guys. Well yeah. I think in this timeline, for it to be logically consistent, Sephiroth probably doesn't want her to die, both because he would know better and also because there'd be nothing stopping him from doing it "early". Which begs the question of what they're going to do to create that same sort of tension. My guess is that the writers are just going to kind of ignore this plothole and there will still be a very important life-or-death event at the City of the Ancients, regardless of whether there's any reason to be anymore.
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Apr 23, 2020 20:32
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What happened was that Aerith selected to cast Holy but then Sephiroth hit her and interrupted the cast, so she lost her ATB and MP but Holy didn't cast. She had to wait the whole rest of the game to get enough ATB to cast it again.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:07
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I don't think Cid is ever actually shown drinking booze. And Cid and Shera are in an emotionally dysfunctional relationship, in that she continues to stick around and help him out of guilt over ruining his dreams, and he uses her as a target for his frustrations with his life. But one of the big things in FFVII is that the characters are all pretty messed up, and there's a lot to be said for not making everything sugar coated and happy. He doesn't hit her, she doesn't seem to be forced to stay; it's a screwed up relationship, but I don't think it's anything that's too taboo to include in a piece of fiction specifically about how screwed up it is.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:23
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Cavelcade posted:In the original game, Aerith explicitly succeeds in summoning Holy but Sephiroth, sitting in the Northern Crater, holds it back. And when it comes out, it seems to help meteor instead of stopping it. I think the widely accepted interpretation is that Holy finally got released when Sephiroth was defeated, and it TRIED to stop Meteor, but it was too late to do it safely where it didn't put the planet/life on the planet at risk. The Lifestream then erupted to help Holy push Meteor away where it could explode safely. And it's heavily implied that Aerith being in the lifestream was instrumental in having the lifestream come out to help save the day, based on the final shot of a praying, smiling Aerith illuminated in lifestream glow. So it's that final bit that indicates that her being dead was kind of critical.
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Apr 23, 2020 21:27
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All the more reason that Sephiroth, logically, should kill Aerith ASAP next time she goes to pee in the woods, BEFORE she can summon Holy. Edit: The most important change in this new timeline is that Cloud & Co. don't spend months making Chocobos breed, and so kill Sephiroth long before Meteor is a problem. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 23, 2020 21:43
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They can't have the giant Cait Sith moogle. How would he slowly squeeze through tiny spaces or inch along narrow ledges?Cavelcade posted:Aerith helps the team from beyond the grave metaphorically and literally - she motivates them to go on and communicates with the planet on their behalf. Aerith in the original could barely communicate with the spirits of the ancients standing right in front of her, and could only get vague feelings and half-understood communication from the planet. I don't think a living Aerith could literally summon a giant pillar of lifestream out of the planet.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:31
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Flopsy posted:Was OG Aerith plot aware though? No, but they haven't given any indication she has super lifestream-summoning powers now either.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:45
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Caidin posted:Did anyone else get slightly irritated with the slowly shimmying through a gap thing? Usually there wasn't even a point to it. The point was usually to hide loading.
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Apr 23, 2020 23:49
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I sort of hope this becomes a running gag, with Wedge repeatedly "dying" and then later being revealed to have survived, throughout the whole rest of the project. Or perhaps he has nine lives.
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Apr 24, 2020 00:09
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guts and bolts posted:Here are some fun Cloud facts for everyone while we wait for Final Fantasy VII Revengeance or for the world to end, whichever comes first! I mean, I'm a huge fan of the game and the ending didn't really bother me, but it's kind of silly to argue against there being an immersion-breaking power spike at the end. You cited the most cartoonishly unrealistic things that happen in the entire game and they still don't compare to cutting buildings in half and literally teleporting around. Cloud goes from being Captain America-like super athlete to someone that can ignore space-time and physics entirely.
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Apr 25, 2020 09:49
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guts and bolts posted:The characters are exactly as strong as the plot requires them to be, no more and no less. You could argue that this breaks immersion from time to time and I'd be inclined to agree with you, but I don't see anyone complaining that Cloud struggles to help Aerith move a dresser out of the way during the church escape, or cloud_and_barret_vs_a_door.gif. I think the over-the-top nature of the game's closing minutes draws flak because of what it parallels (the excesses of Advent Children and similar works) rather than what it actually is. It seems to be less "that's inconsistent with what these characters can do" (because, I'd argue, there's not a whole lot of consistency) and more "every time I've seen a thing that features characters who can do [poo poo from the ending], it has wound up being really bad." I've said it before, but throughout the rest of the game, Cloud is like a super athlete. He's stronger than a normal person, he can jump higher, he has impressive coordination, and he's really durable (although falling from heights doesn't seem to be a real problem in this world). All in all, almost everything in the game is relatively internally consistent, which is the key to suspension of disbelief. A fictional world is not unbelievable because there's magic, or because people can do impossible things- as long as it's relatively consistent, the audience can accept "this is how things work in this world." When that relative consistency is thrown out the window, suddenly your immersion breaks. Your brain, subconsciously, goes "wait, I thought I understood this world. How is this happening, now?" So when a character that has been pounding on a rickety-looking Hell House for 20 minutes, and finally wins by jumping on its head and stabbing it, and has to worry about making relatively normal jumps- can now slice skyscrapers in half without slowing down, and can blink out of existence and appear somewhere else, your brain stops being invested in the action and becomes aware that it's watching an inconsistent cartoon. This is probably a bad example, but take the bad Superman 2 or 3 movies- we're used to Superman being basically a supercharged human- he can see better, jump so hard he flies, etc. We can accept all that. But suddenly he can pull the "S" off his chest and it becomes an expanding cellophane trap that can hold superhumans? And he can rebuild the Great Wall of China with his eyes? What? When you've spend the last 40 hours with a character, getting a feel for what they can do, you can't just give them magic powers they've never had before out of nowhere. Now, my personal interpretation for it is that it was all due to the "universe" the heroes traveled to. Before you go through the portal, you're given a message about how poo poo is going to be really weird on the other side, so I just like to think that the characters didn't spontaneously become gods, so much as they went to a place where the normal laws of physics don't apply. e: f;b. That's what I get for getting distracted. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 10:40
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Crowetron posted:Superman is a bad example because "Superman does new impossible thing out of nowhere to resolve the plot and the power is never mentioned again" has been part of his comics since before any of us were alive. Well yeah, I did point out it'd be a bad example because Superman is notorious for getting convenient powers as needed. It's still bad writing.
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Apr 25, 2020 10:48
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DeathChicken posted:On an unrelated note, I thought it was a nice touch that post-stabbing, Barret was about to return to the planet like every other NPC mook who died in this game (complete with swirly green light effects), but the ghosts moved in and went "Nope". No, see, we never killed anybody all game. Remember when we rescued Johnny and Tifa was like, "let's get out of here before they wake up." And Cloud looks at the clearly dead bodies bleeding out all over the dirt and goes, "...yeah."
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Apr 25, 2020 10:51
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guts and bolts posted:I mean, part of that fight is memorable - I actually liked Cloud's fwip-fwip-fwip! moves, implying he's moving faster than the eye can track, and there are some very pretty shots of them clashing swords and mean-mugging at one another. This just also appears to be the part of the fight you didn't like. It's not an Advent Children thing for me. I give media poo poo about this when I see it in general. See: Solid Snake running up a missile being shot at him in the remake. Video game developers have a tendency to go overboard to make scenes AWEEESOME to the point where I find it has the opposite effect and makes scenes eye-rolling. guts and bolts posted:e: It was more consistent in the original, actually. The added scenes with the motorcycles really kind of blurred just how superpowered Cloud is. In the original game, falls basically never kill anyone, so the fall to Sector 5 was whatever. Other than that, he did not have superhuman powers. He was just strong as poo poo, mostly exemplified by the fact that he could swing around a sword 1-handed that probably weighed about 200 lbs. The Remake seems to make him generally more agile and acrobatic in addition, but that's pretty much it. And honestly, the more "human" a character is in their limitations, the easier it is for the audience to identify with them and feel like there are "stakes"- like this person is vulnerable and risking their life. If they can teleport and leap 100 feet in the air, and get punched through walls and stand right up, well, now they feel like invincible superheroes and it just becomes a case of a child smashing their action figures together. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 11:03
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DeathChicken posted:It was kind of odd trying to determine who was seeing "Sephiroth" running around and who was seeing him as a Clone puppet. Like, Tifa stops Cloud from killing Marco early on, so presumably she was only seeing the creepy guy next door. Then later on, loving Palmer can see Sephiroth as he's guiding Marco. So can Hojo all the way through a security camera. My take is that we're experiencing a combination of Cloud hallucinations and actual Sephiroth "possession". Like, it seems Jenova cells allow one to take on the appearance of another, so when Seph is controlling clones to take Jenova, he's having them appear as Sephiroth to everybody. Meanwhile, Cloud is frequently just seeing hallucinations of Seph a lot. I think he either hallucinated Marco as Seph, or "sensed" the Jenova cells in Marco and his brain went "ahhh, Sephiroth!" Although this does bring up an interesting twist raised in the remake versus my understanding of the original. In the original, my interpretation was that only the actual Jenova could appear as someone else. The actual Sephiroth and the clones could not. Also, Jenova is basically an amalgamation of independently conscious cells that can live on their own. The more of them are together, the more "willpower" and consciousness Jenova can exert through them. So my understanding of the Shinra tower section of the original was not that a clone showed up impersonating as Sephiroth to steal Jenova's body- it's that Jenova's body broke ITSELF out of containment, and took on the appearance of Sephiroth. It freed Cloud from his cell so he could participate in the reunion, and then killed President Shinra and left. That's why whenever you catch up to "Sephiroth" in that game, you end up fighting a Jenova boss (it's throwing bits of itself at you), and you never see Sephiroth carrying Jenova's body around- it's because he IS Jenova's body. Now the remake makes it seem like Jenova's body is inert and just being carried around by random clone lackeys. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 23:35
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Flopsy posted:Eh, considering it's been flat out stated Sephiroth's mind and will have superimposed over Jenova's I always took it as he wanted to get his hands on some more potent genetic material and that "Jenova" as we know it is essentially gone and it's all Sephiroth now. Sure, but even going with that interpretation, I would've imagined a case where Sephiroth hijacked the Jenova corpse, made it look like himself, and then started heading back to the northern crater in his Jenova suit.
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Apr 25, 2020 23:39
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I put the Magnify+Barrier combo on Barret in Normal, but when I did use it, it never seemed to last very long, just a few seconds. I guess sometimes that's all you need.
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Apr 26, 2020 06:39
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