UKMT Autumn 2020 - Thou shalt have a Rishi act a little fishi

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Autumn 2020 - Thou shalt have a Rishi act a little fishi

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therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

thespaceinvader posted:

It's way more about a million is a statistic, I think, as well as even though it's a MASSIVE death toll, relative tot he population, the numbers are quite low, so there's a decent chance that most people simply don't know anyone who died, let alone anyone who died way younger than they would have, and so it's not real for them. Big numbers are hard to comprehend at the best of times.

And much of the media is still pushing the line that the government is doing/did a decent job (or at least not an appalling, fatally bad one).

# ¿ Sep 11, 2020 15:47

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 21:24

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

jabby posted:

He wasn't doorstepped, it was a prepared statement.

Honestly after everything he's been through he can say what he likes, but I agree with Shabi that it has obliterated the EHRC report and I just don't see any good for anyone coming out of blowing this row up again. It's not good for Starmer, it's not good for Corbyn, not for Labour, not for Momentum, not for the Left in general, not for anti-racism campaigners in general, just not good for anybody. Everyone comes out looking bad.

So if it was me I'd have left out the sentence about "the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons". It might be true, but everyone who is going to believe that already knows.

I completely agree. I don't know what he was thinking or trying to accomplish with that, and then his suspension is sad, although not unexpected. What a loving mess. (Then again, I have never rated him particularly highly on the brains front. I think McDonnell, for instance, is much cleverer. I would have really liked to see him as chancellor). it;s very depressing.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2020 19:17

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

namesake posted:

If RLB was leader then yes maybe there was an argument that he should have kept quiet, just accepted his reputation was permanently ruined from the report and the press spin on it but not wanting to drag the left successor into the same stupid slur campaign. With Starmer as leader he absolutely needs to continue to press the point that this was primarily sabotage of him and the left.

Eh, he personally doesn't come out of the report looking that bad. I don't think it damaged his reputation any more than the ongoing dragged-out issue had already. And I don�t see how his statement helped the party.

FWIW I believe that while of course AS was weaponised it was also real. I know lots here disagree. Arguing about it just feels like banging one's head against a brick wall (on both sides). Meanwhile one of the worst governments we have had in years allows coronvirus to ravage the country while their cronies exploit it. That's the depressing element. The party has become as polarised as society generally.

therattle fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Oct 30, 2020

# ¿ Oct 30, 2020 19:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Gonzo McFee posted:

Oh christ who let this gormless prick in

I let myself in.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2020 19:46

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

jabby posted:

I don't think reigniting the row is going to improve his reputation. Everybody who is going to believe the complaints were politically motivated already believes that. All the arguments have been made.

Plus, at the risk of this being unpopular, I still find it unedifying for anybody on the left to downplay complaints of racism no matter how exaggerated and politically motivated they are. The Labour party is institutionally racist in so many ways, we shouldn't be defending it. If Corbyn wants to rebut the vitriol levelled at him it would be far more productive to reiterate that the handling of complaints was deliberately hampered by other factions of the party, or point to the good things he did improving the processes, rather than clumsily saying there wasn't enough racism to justify this level of upset.

EDIT

Guardian appears to confirm suspicions that suspending Corbyn was bad for everybody and both Corbyn and Starmer want it to go away.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was institutionally racist but I believe it has/had a problem with AS (and probably other forms of racism). But there are many people who refuse to acknowledge that altogether, and that makes finding common ground around this issue very hard. (As you say, all the arguments have been made on both sides). I completely agree that there were better ways of rebuttal for him - I just don't think he's a particularly good politician. A better politician, while not necessarily believing that AS was an issue, would have recognised that other people thought it was an issue and acted accordingly. McDonnell either recognised the problem earlier or was astute enough to pretend that there was a problem and that the perception needed addressing - it feels like among the last person to actually acknowledge it was JC. I found that very upsetting. Even the leaked report acknowledges that it was a real problem.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2020 21:46

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

jabby posted:

The demographic of MPs doesn't represent the population. We've never had a female or ethnic minority leader. A MP boasted about telling a black MP to "gently caress off". Party staffers shared racist abuse of MPs in their WhatsApp groups. Dawn Butler says party staffers were hostile to her because she's black.

Pretty much every institution in the UK is racist, Labour is no exception.

Fair enough.

Jose posted:

trump regularly tells american jews that their home is israel and gets no criticism

Not true. This was the first google result.

https://www.businessinsider.com/american-jews-condemn-trump-for-saying-israel-is-your-country-2020-9

Gonzo McFee posted:

He also says that Jews who don't vote for him are disloyal to Israel and it's somehow fine.

Also not true.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...b7ce_story.html

Plenty of results saying the same thing.

It�s almost as if Jews call out antisemitism when they see it, and not only in the Labour Party because it�s �politically convenient�.

Anyway, it�s not like Trump is held up to be a paragon of virtue and a dedicated anti-racism campaigner. One would expect nothing less than this poo poo from him.

therattle fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Oct 30, 2020

# ¿ Oct 30, 2020 23:36

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

feedmegin posted:

A statement prepared because the first thing that was going to happen was journalists asking him for his reaction. 'No comment' wasn't an option. Not mentioning that there was a smear campaign would also have been taken as an admission of guilt. I'm glad he told the truth.

�I haven�t had time to properly read and consider the final report. Once I have had an opportunity to do so I�ll release a statement�. He had options. He just chose not to take them.

Jakabite posted:

Yes of course Jews do, the point being made is that the centrist and right wing media don�t. Is this guy another pound shop Pissflaps?

The comments I was replying to were basically saying that there was no criticism at all, it�s fine for him to say it - not that there was no criticism from centrist and right wing media.

Poundshop pissflaps would be an excellent username.

therattle fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Oct 31, 2020

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 00:09

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Payndz posted:

I just had a rare moment of being heartened by the realisation that as he's not a minister or even an elected politician and therefore lacks crown immunity, Dominic Cummings could technically be held criminally accountable for every death - rapidly approaching 1 Brit in every 1000! - resulting from his sociopathic policies.

Not that this will ever happen, but y'know, you take these little nuggets of hope where you can.

This government as a whole is criminally negligent and has blood on its hands for how badly this has been handled. I doubt there�ll ever be a proper public enquiry to investigate it though. It would be hard to prosecute Cummings because he just advises, he doesn�t make or implement policy. I wish him much misfortune.

feedmegin posted:

And then we do exactly the same thing, just a day later

Yeah, maybe. I just fail to see how that benefits him or the party. Or more strongly, how it doesn�t hurt both.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 00:31

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

It�s ok to keep schools open because localised outbreaks can be contained by our world-beating track and trace system.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 00:34

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Gonzo McFee posted:

You should take this back to CSPAM so people there can tell you to gently caress off again.

It�s ok, you don�t need to acknowledge that you were wrong.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 00:52

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Vitamin P posted:

Potentially on the topic of, legit asking again what your quotation marks are doing here?

Instead of white noise 'no u' bad posts you did make an actually interesting post earlier would appreciate you explaining it like I'm an idiot because genuinely can't parse what you were saying.

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. So, two people posted that when Trump says something AS nobody says anything. In contrast, when AS comes from the left there is a hullabaloo. Therefore the outrage about Left AS is manufactured for political reasons - hence �politically convenient�. (Which is not to say that the issues wasn�t weaponised - of course it was). That is, the implication (to me at least) is that there is a double- standard for calling out AS. �It doesn�t happen when Trump does it! He can say this and that and nothing happens!� But that�s not actually the case. Trump�s statements were swiftly condemned by numerous Jewish groups. Therefore when there are claims of AS towards Labour, perhaps they are sincere and not manufactured smears, as AS in other contexts is also called out.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 01:15

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

crispix posted:

I was stopped at traffic lights outside a primary school the other day and the kids were out on their lunch and they were just running all around and pulling and hauling at each other and shoving each other and screaming like maniacs like normal lol

It�s impossible to maintain any kind of distancing. My son�s school has created a bubble for each class, which I think is about the most one can do. But that doesn�t help much when there are siblings at the school in different bubbles.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 13:12

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

goddamnedtwisto posted:

The point isn't to stop transmission altogether, because that would be impossible *even if the schools were closed*. The point is to reduce the amount of opportunities to spread and hence the rate of infections. We could keep the schools open if we were willing and able to more properly lock down elsewhere and not, say, bribe people to go and eat in restaurants.

Oh sure, I completely agree. The policies re lockdown, eating out etc have been completely contradictory and illogical. We could also have more freedom if we had a proper, locally-based track and trace system.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 13:28

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Angepain posted:

i wish that a tory could resign and have someone at least a tiny slight bit less odious and incompetent take their place. i just want to savour the fun of tories losing their jobs for once

Just when you think it can�t get any worse someone even crueller and more incompetent wins the hallowed crown. Being Labour leader doesn�t look like much fun, but I don�t think being leader of the Conservatives is all that jolly either.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2020 19:00

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

WhatEvil posted:

You're missing the bigger picture. He's handed out literally billions of pounds to dodgy offshore companies and poo poo for "PPE" and various other poo poo. I'd wager he'll be getting a board of director position on some made up company and getting at least a few mil a year for the rest of his life. There might also be some links with some Russian oligarchs and stuff because he's obviously got matey with Trump and his cronies. I'm not saying "IT'S A RUSSIAN CONSPIRACY, PUTIN!!", just the same old crony/disaster capitalism poo poo which happens to include a number of rich Russians like Evgeny Lebedev.

I disagree. I think he is *entirely* about the money. He was set for life in that he never really had to work again, but he is just enormously greedy. He wants to live the lifestyle, yachts, private paedo islands, the lot. Becoming PM is the most surefire way to do an enormous raid on the public purse by funneling many billions of pounds off to friends, for some fraction to be repaid later.

I think it�s both: money and ego. But more ego. He�s a giant narcissist who has always wanted to be PM so he can be seen to have won. Money on top of that is great but secondary; it�s a given. Look at how much a charisma black hole failure like May is getting paid now for speeches and imagine what Bojo might expect. It�s nauseating.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 12:12

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

XMNN posted:

lol I think this p much sums up how hosed we are as a country, guy literally knows from personal experience that Corbyn is a nice guy and still goes "but he loves terrorism and is a nazi"

I think it�s less �is antisemitic� and more �didn�t address this issue quickly enough�. (Yes, I know the consensus here is that it wasn�t his fault). I don�t think that many Britons care that deeply about AS; it was more the perception that he failed to address something bad.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 12:24

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

OwlFancier posted:

No nut november is a loving terrible idea. Worst idea humanity ever had.

Combining it with Movember will surely make it better.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 12:33

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Bobby Deluxe posted:

The McCarthyism going on over Corbyn and antisemitism is incredibly frustrating and therattle concern trolling over it ITT really isn't helping.

I was pretty careful in my last post to not reopen the argument about where fault lay with the whole AS thing: it was more about how it was perceived and the effect it had. A lot of people don�t care that much about AS but thought that Corbyn�s inability to deal with it (whether through lack of desire or sabotage depending on one�s standpoint - not going into it) reflected badly on him as a leader. The longer it dragged on (deliberately or otherwise) the worse he looked. If you subscribe to the sabotage theory, then it worked as planned.

I didn�t think that this would be particularly controversial.

Obviously I think he could/should have dealt with it better and quicker and I�m angry with him that he didn�t in part because it helped gently caress the party.

therattle fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Nov 1, 2020

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 13:25

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

I�m listening to R4 Food Programme with Nadia Hussain. She�s a National Living Treasure.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 13:47

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Desiderata posted:

I'm damned if I can think about what he could have done differently though. Other than on day 1 saying "The Leaders office has no control over diciplinary matters, take it up with the General Secretary " and using that to preasure McNicol to actually apply the recomendations he's already been given... but I'm pretty sure that actually was said at the time, the press just chose to not report how those mechinisms work and act as if it was all on Corbyn's head (and imply it is his personal doing).

It "dragging on" is purely a mechinism of the press, if the press want a story to drag on they can make it be part of the national conversation for years, as long as new takes can be found. If if thousands die and billions of pounds are embezzled, it can be made to disapear in a week if the press have the consensus to bury it.

My main issue with him is how long it took him to realise that there was a problem in the party. Sure, he condemned AS, but it was usually accompanied by a minimisation of the problem, and with the formulation "and all other forms of racism". To a Jew that is a bit like "All Lives Matter". I accept that in some quarters whatever he did would never be enough, but that isn't the case across the board. Did he say that the leader's office has no influence over disciplinary matters and to take it up with McNichol? Did he say "Our discpilinary processes are clearly inadequate to deal with this problem, and I have asked McNichol as a matter of urgency to reform them". No, because I don't believe he cared about the issue that much, as he has a problem seeing leftist antisemitism. I also think it was bad politics. This is perceived as an issue, so I must take steps to be perceived as addressing it - rather than simply refusing to acknowledge it properly.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

The EHRC report literally says he tried to speed up and seek harsher punishments - it's criticism is only over whether he should or shouldn't have. There's an entire episode of Panorama detailing how a PLP chud held up AS investigations to make him look bad. The Labour leaks show the bulk of the party mechanisms were working against him and actively threw the election to get him out.

At what point does this enter your mind as fact and stop being 'like, just your opinion man?' How could he have 'dealt with it better' exactly?

Honestly your core arguments read like a climate denier who is wilfully conflating opinion with fact. The reason people are getting frustrated with you is because you don't seem to be able to grasp this.

By 'not reopening the argument' or reframing it as an argument between two equal sides, you are reinforcing the idea that there is an argument. There isn't. There's misinformation and there are verifiable evidence based facts.

That's what we're trying to talk about and you keep bringing up impressions and accusations.

Even if you're just talking about the perception that he is complicit, you're doing it in a way that reinforces the narrative. Like I said before, we're talking about events and facts, you're repeating this grey miasma that Corbyn is linked to antisemitism because everyone says he is.

The McCarthyist idea of the big lie is that someone makes an accusation, and then everyone repeats the accusation, and then eventually it doesn't matter if there was ever any evidence for the accusation, because everyone is now repeating the accusation. The lie gets so big that it gains a hideous, lurching momentum of its own and the accusation becomes the evidence.

In a very real neurological sense these loops reinforce themselves until it's actively difficult for the brain to break out of them, causing an unpleasant and stressful cortisol release. Once the big lie has taken hold, people don't want to believe anything else.

What's worse is when the 'evidence' is complex, but a simple reading of it is allowed to reinforce the narrative. The EHRC report shafted Corbyn by putting that easily quotable bit in the abstract saying something like 'the party has an antisemitism problem and Corbyn broke the law intervening in cases inappropriately.' It doesn't matter that page 84 clears him of actually being antisemitic, or that his intervention was to expidite cases, or that there were absolutely zero accusations against him before 2015.

All people will read is the easy bit, and the papers then get to signal boost it, and then everyone is talking about how the EHRC *mumbles* Jimminy Crobbles *mumbles* labour antisemitism, knowing full well the connection that the average person on the street is going to make.

And if you try to point out the evidence, or correct anyone, nobody listens because 'everyone knows' Corbyn *mental blur* antisemitism. Even when there's no evidence for what everyone knows; like one of the funny misconceptions on QI, only it's the monstering of a compassionate human rights campaigner.

Again, I would recommend that you read into what Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Obermann have been up to if you want to see examples of two media types who have 100% bought into this poo poo.

You could package up every act of racial justice Corbyn has been involved with in his long career, statements of support from non conservative aligned Jewish organisations, and they would mentally write it all off because it doesn't fit with their worldview, which is that Corbyn is antisemitic. And if you ask them for their evidence that he is, they'd either say 'of course he is, everyone says he is,' or quote a few minor incidents which rely on viewing them through the lens that he is already antisemitic.

That's the power of the big lie. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to get in there first.

I've never said that he was personally AS, but a lot of his close associates are and he has a problem recognising it, and thus addressing it within the party. The leaked report clearly acknowledges that it was a problem in the party. It is also a fact that he took a long time to properly recognise it. Even his statement to the EHRC report tries to downplay the prevalence in the party. See post above for how to address it better. He didn't address it better because he didn't want to. He didn't see that it was an issue, and for too long the resignations of MPs and Lords, multiple personal testimonies of harassment etc were simply written off as Blairite smears.

There was AS in the party. Can you honestly say that Corbyn did all he could, from the get-go, to address it?

therattle fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 1, 2020

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 14:32

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

ronya posted:

one goes to war with the enemies one has, not the enemies one wishes one had, so to speak

it's possible to reject this on principle and say: never compromise. No to electoralism and triangulation - but certainly Corbyn cannot be said to have stood on principle for numerous other domestic issues during his leadership. Choosing Western-imperialism topics to make a sharp stand - to take out a view that is defensible on the left, but undeniably provocative - was always a recurring Corbyn theme. Recall back when Corbyn was handed the first of many, many softballs throughout this episode, when the Chakrabarti report landed, and the report is great and gives Corbyn a way to wriggle out of the earlier Shah/Walker/Livingstone "crisis? What crisis?" debacle, and then Corbyn takes the report launch press briefing as an opportunity to equivocate between the Netanyahu government and ISIS

this is not the behaviour of someone who wants to avoid dragging it out - that is what one does if one wants to 'start a conversation', as the parlance goes.

it is possible to put down these issues - recall e.g. that both Corbyn and McDonnell were soon hit by criticisms over their various remarks on the Irish peace process early in their respective positions. Compare McDonnell defusing what one might think to be an utterly disastrous remark:

to Corbyn, around the same time, not doing that:

The difference is this: McD sets out to convince listeners today - a good swathe of which, let's be real here, would struggle to recall any part of the peace process twenty years ago - that whatever views he might have had in the distant past of 2003, he never meant it even at the time. Whereas Corbyn sets out to reiterate a position that was controversial even in 1997 and then to assert that he was right all along and he still stands by #allbombsmatter today. What about Bloody Sunday! What about Bloody Sunday. It is very important to me that I, the new Leader of the Labour Party, win this argument with Stephen Nolan on left-wing terms!

This is, to be clear, only how one would behave if one wants 1) everyone with an axe to grind since the 1980s to pop out of the woodwork 2) voters to believe that your position back then is still salient on your behaviour today as future Prime Minister, because you're right out there telling them that your position still matters.

This was always a recurring Corbyn tic on Western-imperialism issues - having to be dragged kicking and screaming to the party position (initially blamed on excessively Blairite party apparatchiks - but even after replacing the entire NEC with left-wing loyalists, still engaging in this behaviour), and once there, doing one's level best to use the Leader's podium to provoke debate. Well, congratulations: debate successfully provoked. Better win it. After all - one isn't just a backbencher in a safe Labour seat now, one is Leader of the whole party...

This is a fantastic post and articulates what I�ve been saying about McDonnell being a much more astute politician than Corbyn, and that the strong feeling was that Corbyn didn�t want to resolve this until it was too late. How do you think it feels to a Jew to see this happening?

G1mby posted:

I think possibly the addition of "and other forms of racism" could well be reflective of problems with anti-BAME racism in the party (and country) that also needed addressing and seems to have been a bit swept under the rug with the AS problem. Recall that Dianne Abbott got more harassment in the 2017 election than *every other MP put together* and that the leaked report also highlighted this issue (IIRC). I get that it feels tone deaf when he was being asked about AS specifically, but there's a reasonable argument that the whole problem needs tackling and he was attempting (poorly, I'd agree) to get the media to talk about the wider problem.

Right. Tone-deaf. Apart from being distressing, and feeling like he�s dodging the specific issue, it�s bad politics. Did Abbott receive harassment from within the party as well as without?

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 15:15

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

^^^ Lovely.

="forkboy84" post="509460853"]
gently caress me. That is some statement. I don't think you understand at all why All Lives Matter is a problem. But then I struggle to understand how you are capable of remembering to breathe.
[/quote]

Others have been able to easily grasp the point I was making. It wasn�t a direct equivalence or intended as such. That�s why I qualified it with �a bit�. For the avoidance of doubt I was not suggesting an equivalence between AS in the UK and the structural, pervasive racism faced by most other ethnic minorities, especially black and Asian. Jews are not, for example, grossly underrepresented in the professions and media. I fully understand why All Lives Matter is a problem and how reprehensible it is.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 17:52

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Bobby Deluxe posted:

The EHRC report literally says he tried to speed up and seek harsher punishments - it's criticism is only over whether he should or shouldn't have. There's an entire episode of Panorama detailing how a PLP chud held up AS investigations to make him look bad. The Labour leaks show the bulk of the party mechanisms were working against him and actively threw the election to get him out.

At what point does this enter your mind as fact and stop being 'like, just your opinion man?' How could he have 'dealt with it better' exactly?

Honestly your core arguments read like a climate denier who is wilfully conflating opinion with fact. The reason people are getting frustrated with you is because you don't seem to be able to grasp this.

By 'not reopening the argument' or reframing it as an argument between two equal sides, you are reinforcing the idea that there is an argument. There isn't. There's misinformation and there are verifiable evidence based facts.

That's what we're trying to talk about and you keep bringing up impressions and accusations.

Even if you're just talking about the perception that he is complicit, you're doing it in a way that reinforces the narrative. Like I said before, we're talking about events and facts, you're repeating this grey miasma that Corbyn is linked to antisemitism because everyone says he is.

The McCarthyist idea of the big lie is that someone makes an accusation, and then everyone repeats the accusation, and then eventually it doesn't matter if there was ever any evidence for the accusation, because everyone is now repeating the accusation. The lie gets so big that it gains a hideous, lurching momentum of its own and the accusation becomes the evidence.

In a very real neurological sense these loops reinforce themselves until it's actively difficult for the brain to break out of them, causing an unpleasant and stressful cortisol release. Once the big lie has taken hold, people don't want to believe anything else.

What's worse is when the 'evidence' is complex, but a simple reading of it is allowed to reinforce the narrative. The EHRC report shafted Corbyn by putting that easily quotable bit in the abstract saying something like 'the party has an antisemitism problem and Corbyn broke the law intervening in cases inappropriately.' It doesn't matter that page 84 clears him of actually being antisemitic, or that his intervention was to expidite cases, or that there were absolutely zero accusations against him before 2015.

All people will read is the easy bit, and the papers then get to signal boost it, and then everyone is talking about how the EHRC *mumbles* Jimminy Crobbles *mumbles* labour antisemitism, knowing full well the connection that the average person on the street is going to make.

And if you try to point out the evidence, or correct anyone, nobody listens because 'everyone knows' Corbyn *mental blur* antisemitism. Even when there's no evidence for what everyone knows; like one of the funny misconceptions on QI, only it's the monstering of a compassionate human rights campaigner.

Again, I would recommend that you read into what Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Obermann have been up to if you want to see examples of two media types who have 100% bought into this poo poo.

You could package up every act of racial justice Corbyn has been involved with in his long career, statements of support from non conservative aligned Jewish organisations, and they would mentally write it all off because it doesn't fit with their worldview, which is that Corbyn is antisemitic. And if you ask them for their evidence that he is, they'd either say 'of course he is, everyone says he is,' or quote a few minor incidents which rely on viewing them through the lens that he is already antisemitic.

That's the power of the big lie. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to get in there first.

I just want to get back to this. I have read a lot of posts in response to me about the mountain of evidence that the machine was working against Corbyn. By ignoring that evidence I am arguing in bad faith. I assume that the evidence in question is derived from the report.

1) A central plank of my argument is that: i) there was a problem with AS in the party (which some people still deny); and ii) that the leadership and Corbyn in particular were slow to respond to it, and could have done so better. The report actually confirms both of these positions, but that is often completely overlooked 9although heavy reliance is placed on other elements of the report which suit the argument better).

2) The report is being treated as gospel. But it was compiled by internal Labour staffers (Corbyn supporters, I believe), and not by an independent person or body (note: I am not suggesting that the EHRC is wholly independent or unbiased). It presented statements that were taken out of context, and others which have been flatly denied. Thomas Gardiner* formally told Jenny Formby that it gave an intentionally misleading picture. The GMB issued a statement that said "We are deeply concerned with the report, and the means by which it was commissioned, created, and made public. It is also disappointing that much of the report diverts from the scope of its declared intention, which was to look into the Labour Party�s response to antisemitism." (One may ask why it deviated from the stated intention).

So I don't regard it as persuasive. We all choose what we want to believe and disbelieve. Let's not pretend like it's some objective truth and I am simply refusing to acknowledge it. I have my worldview - and you have yours.

*"Thomas Gardiner, Labour�s director of governance and legal until last month, wrote that the report should not be circulated because party employees� emails and WhatsApp messages had been �presented selectively and without their true context in order to give a misleading picture�."

learnincurve posted:

Did did I just read the “there are lots of Jews in entertainment ergo they have power an influence” argument? Because it’s been a while, last heard it maybe 2002?

No you didn't. You read that Jews are not underrepresented in the professions and the media in the way that BAME people are.

Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:

excellent

also I'm still lolling at "jewish people are not underrepresented in the media, wonk"

I can't find the stats without getting as bunch of articles about how Jews control the media, but I work in film (and TV, a bit), and I can tell you, we are not underrepresented in the media industry. It's a fact, presented without judgment.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 19:26

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Julio Cruz posted:

have you tried going and arguing with them instead of pretending that this thread believes that? it might be a better use of your time

There are definitely people in C-SPAM who believe that. Arguing with them is pointless. I may be confusing this thread with that one but I�m pretty sure there are posters here who believe it too.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 19:37

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Vitamin P posted:

Yeah we all know McDonnell is better at politics than Corbyn but Corbyns principled inept jam grandpa bit is also why he was able to be a dark horse and reach a position to tap into something with the electorate, it's not a new insight. But the idea that that difference in approach is a meaningful factor in the AS story compared to the absurd media campaign of the last three years is just ridiculous.

I'm king poo poo of 'I think they're wrong but sort of understand how they got there so pls no bully' and if we can have sympathy for duped brexiters and working class tory voters it's way easier to have sympathy for Jews that have been told for years that the first possible route towards decency in a generation is actually Hitler so Be Scared, this thread has had nothing but sympathy for young and working-class Jewish people that want a better country but have been bullied into sincerely feeling excluded from the movement. It's why Jewdas was so popular ITT, they were articulating a route out of that dogshit.

People were inspired by Corbyns Labour because they had sympathy for people that need help, be it poor families or the disabled or the elderly or minority ethnic groups or whoever, if the fash went marching through Stoke Newington to have a go at 'the fuckin' hasids' the people meeting them on the streets would 100% be Corbynites.

I'm sorry but if you're expecting sympathy for that in the context of the destruction of the UK left then get hosed, that isn't even All Lives Matter it's just obnoxious. How do you think it feels as a disabled person to see this happening? How do you think it feels as single mum to see this happening?

I�m being slow (there�s an open goal for someone): I don�t quite get your last paragraph. Please clarify.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 19:45

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

TheRat posted:

Really? Is this another one of those things you've just made up in your head?

Look 3 posts above yours. Jesus, that was too easy.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 19:46

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

OwlFancier posted:

I mean if you would like to address that point it might be a good idea.

Because normally if you have a subgroup that has a reduced incidence of a thing than the general population you don't go around saying the subgroup has a problem with the thing, you would normally say that the subgroup is doing quite well at keeping the thing out?

Unlike a society, a party chooses who to allow in or exclude. If there is a prevalence of something within a subgroup that is increasing, and contrary to that subgroup�s stated values, then it has a problem.

But thanks for illustrating my point so quickly.

Rustybear posted:

the only people who still care to argue about the original claims are diehard partisans who will never ever leave the jungle and admit the war is over.

do you genuinely think people will read these posts and go wow this particular assemblage of the same facts has finally shifted the scales from my eyes.

No, but it�s important to me (for whatever reason) that I�m not seen to be arguing insincerely or in bad faith.

Julio Cruz posted:

Owl also thinks that education is bad so you might not want to use him as a barometer of general feeling ITT

You didn�t say general view (or I would have agreed with you). To be honest, this feels like petty points scoring. But it is worth pointing out that quite a lot of people still don�t accept that there was/is a problem.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 19:57

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

TheRat posted:

Your strawmanning is getting really old, really fast.

Please explain.

quote:

therattle posted:
There are definitely people in C-SPAM who believe that. Arguing with them is pointless. I may be confusing this thread with that one but I�m pretty sure there are posters here who believe it too.

TheRat posted:
Really? Is this another one of those things you've just made up in your head?

OwlFancier posted:
I was under the impression that the labour party is statistically less antisemitic than the general population, which I would find difficult to characterise as "the party has a problem with antisemitism"

Vitamin P posted:

Treating the AS stuff as though there isn't a wider political and media context for the story shits on the vulnerable groups being abused and mudered by the austerity policies Corbyns Labour was the only viable fightback against in a generation it's not complicated.

I'm really sorry, but I don't agree. There were victims of Labour AS (being Jews who were distressed, traumatised, harassed, etc), and who were also being used as a political footballs by the right, but the fact that others also suffered (differently, and often more) as a result doesn't mean that we can't have sympathy for both.

Anyway, I have said my piece on this. Time for TV.

WhatEvil posted:

Also Pissflaps Mk2 up there said that there were things in the leaked report which were "taken out of context".

Tells you all you need to know.

What context could there be that makes any of that poo poo alright? What more context do you need than an 800 page report which is solely there to provide context?

If anybody is actually going to try to answer those two questions, I'm not interested, because you're either monumentally dumb or acting in bad faith and I have time for neither.

There is some really horrible stuff in that report, which, if true (and at least some of it probably is) is abhorrent and inexcusable. But it isn't altogether clear how much is true and what the wider context was for all of it, from which a number of conclusions have been drawn. For instance, there was stuff about Coryn's people celebrating after 2017 while the right-wingers were grey-faced, because this isn't what they had worked for. They were running an election campaign. Corbyn's people were celebrating a better-than-expected close second place. In a two-horse race, there is a word for second place. If you'd lost an election that you'd worked really hard to win, would you necessarily be celebrating?

therattle fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 1, 2020

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 21:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Julio Cruz posted:

have you tried going and arguing with them instead of pretending that this thread believes that? it might be a better use of your time

therattle posted:

You didn�t say general view (or I would have agreed with you). To be honest, this feels like petty points scoring. But it is worth pointing out that quite a lot of people still don�t accept that there was/is a problem.

Julio Cruz posted:

don't come back

Sorry, I will for one last thing. Per the above two posts I misremembered what you wrote. You were referring to the general thread view and not individuals. So my response to you was wrong. It bothered me when I realised.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 22:03

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Communist Thoughts posted:

His relentless dedication to killing Brits has to be admired

I�ll bet he�s an anti-vaxxer too.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2020 23:41

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

This is very good (I promise it has nothing to do with JC)

https://youtu.be/KHdzkBhyweY

# ¿ Nov 2, 2020 00:22

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Vitamin P posted:

John rent-a-ghoul

Not putting anything past Starmer but it would be wild if just objectively pointing out relative press coverage vs material hardship of the plight of UK Jewish people and UK disabled people was literally made bannable within the party. Like future scholars have to just Cancel the wayback machine so Jessica Phillips Jr can continue pursuing party unity.

Jfc, even I think he�s being ridiculous. I thought at first that he was being ironic but he wasn�t. Of course it was weaponised. That isn�t the same as saying it didn�t exist or was exaggerated. (Yes, something can be weaponised, exaggerated, and still a serious matter that needs to be addressed).

# ¿ Nov 3, 2020 00:52

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Gravastars posted:

I can only hope now that the health of both Johnson and Trump is slowly ticking away like a COVID-poison status effect.

Nope, I want Trump to lose and then live a long, painful life riddled with ill-health, beset by legal problems, bankruptcy, and knowing that he lost this election (pls god).

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 13:17

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

keep punching joe posted:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1324007806694023169

Lol

Even if you don�t see much difference between Biden and Trump don�t you want to see Trump lose just to witness his meltdown?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 17:00

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

kingturnip posted:

I saw someone going at least 25mph on an electric scooter, in a cycle lane, while I was on my way home from work.
It's better than the people riding theirs on the pavement, but there's a point where you should probably be using the road.

I�m just waiting to read about a fatality. A lot of electric scooter riders ride really fast, recklessly and without helmets.

Comrade Fakename posted:

So, with the lockdown and everything, looks like I'm going to be spending Christmas alone, and I'm sure I'm far from the only one in that situation. Anyone got any tips for making Christmas dinner for one?

https://www.game.co.uk/en/the-game-christmas-tinner-2704307

# ¿ Nov 4, 2020 18:38

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Looks like Biden has Michigan.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2020 00:02

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

The inevitable Trump Downfall:

https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1324020849230319616?s=08

# ¿ Nov 5, 2020 00:19

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Soricidus posted:

*extremely middle class voice* I say do they really trust you so little at your supermarkets? At Waitrose I just grab a trolley and use it

Waitrose takes guineas. (Pound coins actually, like the others).

# ¿ Nov 5, 2020 12:28

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

Guavanaut posted:

Expanding on this one, it follows in reverse. Any reasonably non-toxic gas that you could store as a compressed liquid that dissolved well in fats would also very likely be a decent inhalational anesthetic, and I can only think of a few, propane, butane, cyclopropane, methoxyethane maybe, and those all vary from very flammable to ridiculously flammable, and would impart unpleasant smells or tastes to the cream.

So nitrous oxide is really the least bad option as it's non-flammable (though can intensify fires/Vin Diesel movies) and all of the other options would have your cream stinking of petrol and possibly on fire, and errant hoodies or whoever we're scared of now could still use them to get a quick high, as it was with lighter gas canisters.

They hate what they see in their past selves.

This is an amazing idea.

This is the third worst thing that Germany has done.

Wrong. Mayonnaise on chips is really good.

therattle fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Nov 6, 2020

# ¿ Nov 5, 2020 23:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 21:24

therattle: Jul 24, 2007; Soiled Meat

OwlFancier posted:

You're just making friends left right and center aren't you.

It�s easy to have principles if they don�t cost you anything.
One of my best friends growing up was Dutch. I learned it from him. Mayo and ketchup together is really good too.

Would you like my views on circumcision?

# ¿ Nov 6, 2020 00:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Autumn 2020 - Thou shalt have a Rishi act a little fishi

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