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Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

quote:

1/ The independent Russian media outlet Verstka ("Layout")

What is the state of Independent Russian media? To be honest, I thought there wasn't really any left.

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Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Tuna-Fish posted:

To expand on this, Soviet planning seemed to hinge completely on the idea that if they only nuked countries that didn't have any nukes themselves, they wouldn't get nuked back.

The 7 days to the Rhine plan started by nuking Vienna, the capital of neutral Austria, killing millions to hopefully scare the Austrian army to not participate in futher hostilities and to allow Soviet troops to pass. This would then be followed up with counterforce nuclear strikes on NATO West Germany, Italy and Denmark, to take out their military capability before they had time to form up. All the while the Soviets would be invading in relatively tight, concentrated groups, which would be very vulnerable to nuclear counterattack, to say nothing about their logistics. The calculus really was that so long as no bombs land on France, UK or US territory or forces, they wouldn't respond in hopes of preventing nuclear attacks on them directly.

There are some videos on YouTube about this plan, e.g.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvMm4Uh3HPs

It's mind-bogglingly crazy.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Tomn posted:

One slight issue with NATO concessions, I feel like, is that after this war Ukraine is going to really, really want to secure SOME kind of security guarantee from other countries, and NATO would probably be the most secure form of guarantee available - even if they win this war outright and have the ability to win it again, I can't imagine they'd enjoy paying the price of this year's victories again. Finding allies to make themselves look too prickly for Russia to even attempt to try again in the future is likely going to be a top diplomatic priority. Of course, actual NATO membership is probably pretty unlikely anyways given the complexities involved in securing membership for Ukraine so from that perspective it might be considered a "free win," but I wonder if Putin is going to regard checks on NATO expansion purely as a face-saving exercise, or if he's going to actively push for a peace agreement preventing "Western influence" from reaching Ukraine, for which read "foreign security guarantees and treaties that might prevent Russia from trying again in the future." If the former, well and good, Ukraine can pinky-swear not to join NATO while signing agreements that ensure they'll have backing and assistance from NATO member states in the future (even if it's just guaranteed military contracts for supplies and equipment and such). If the latter, though, a peace in which Ukraine is left isolated to stand alone against future Russian aggression is not I think going to be considered much of a peace at all.

Aren't we assuming that Ukraine will probably eventually join the EU? Is their common defense pact not worth much?

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.
Just heard Zelensky is Time Magazine's person of the year.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Charliegrs posted:

I don't know if it makes much of a difference. Zelensky will most likely travel by land over into Poland then take a flight to the US. So unless the Russians want to fly over NATO territory to shoot down the passenger jet carrying Zelensky then I don't think there's much danger. And with Zelensky out of the country what are the Russians going to do? Invade harder?

Most passenger jets flying between Europe/NA/Asia use the arctic circle. In theory, the Russians could shoot down a passenger jet (or a few) there.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Mederlock posted:

And unfortunately.. it looks like there's speculation Putin may be looking to 'celebrate' the occasion by doing some sort of Anniversary offensive/attack

https://youtu.be/lxV5jEWAs8k

Probably clancychat but:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11686959/Vladimir-Putin-set-Iron-Curtain-big-war-Nato-Ukraine-warns-strike-February-24.html

"Vladimir Putin is set on 'big war' with Nato to bring back the Iron Curtain says top Russian political scientist as Ukraine warns Russia will launch new pre-emptive strike by February 24"

Also:

"Dr Yudin, a professor at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences, does not believe major Western countries will fight to save the likes of Poland and Lithuania."

I'm not in the EU so I can't say but... Ignoring the fact that these are NATO members, I have to believe that EU members not stepping up to bat if one of their members was invaded might effectively spell the end of the Union.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

ronya posted:

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1619763202841083908

Finland is the one that actually land borders Russia, insofar as NATO status matters to deterring Russian behaviour. Turkish elections or not, Ankara may reasonably feel that Russian adventurism is sufficiently deterred.

And anyway both Finland and Sweden are already covered by EU mutual defence commitments, although Turkey is not.

I thought Finland said it was both them and Sweden or neither?

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

DarkCrawler posted:

If EU was completely without NATO which had dissolved after Cold War ended or something, the Baltics would already be more militarized, probably in a conscription model. EU would have a military command structure of its own as well, at minimum. EU combined has exponentially more modern military hardware, trained soldiers, industrial base and oh, nuclear weapons in comparison to Ukraine.

How would the Baltics be next, given all those facts? gently caress Poland, Finland would have hosed up the Russian military that invaded Ukraine. Poland would have wiped it off the map. Europe would have been in Moscow inside two weeks.

I'm not sure going way down alt history paths is that useful, even if it is fun. We might as well discuss how this war would have played out if the Third Reich still ruled west Europe.


Somaen posted:

The Belarusian army has been underfunded for decades not to become a danger to Lukash, they have no ideological reason to fight either

I used to work with someone from Belarus, he said them being a small country next door to Ukraine, everybody knew the whole "Ukraine is full of Nazis" to be complete nonsense.


DTurtle posted:

How many countries are in the EU and not in NATO? Six (Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden) of which two are just joining. The other four have tiny militaries (Austria's is the largest at 22000, followed by Cyprus with 16000, Ireland with 7000, and Malta with 1700 active soldiers).

Doesn't Austria have a "constitutional neutrality?" I thought that was the reason they were not part of Nato etc.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Blut posted:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1626244170917478400

Good to see Mitch McConnell trying to shore up support for Ukraine in the US.

I know everybody here seems to think the Republicans all love Putin (and I don't doubt that there are some that do) but I live in a red district currently and most of the right wingers here do not seem to think well of him.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Mauser posted:

Would it not be a humiliating admission of weakness and their junior partner status for Russia to accept Chinese military aid/vehicles? I don't really know what the mindset is over relations with China there and maybe I'm also assuming that Russians are more racist against the Chinese than they are in reality.

Probably, but maybe they think they can just deny it publicly. Seems like the sort of thing they'd think they can get away with.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.
Interesting headline I saw today:

"Humiliated Putin forced to pay Russians to attend pro-war event in Moscow stadium"

(Not familiar with this site, so maybe take with a grain of salt.)


ronya posted:

well, Russian cities are not the ones being shelled to the ground and their people not being randomly disappeared into torture prisons by a foreign occupier.

Although not being shelled to the ground, some Russian towns near the Ukrainian border have certainly been affected.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Crow Buddy posted:

If Ukraine wins this war, I suspect that Ukraine will not tolerate that enclaves existence on their border.

How do you foresee that playing out? I highly doubt Ukraine is going to take military action against a part of Moldova.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Ynglaur posted:

This is a more sober quotation, but sounds about right: “Every year of war needs ten for de-mining." :smith:

I only learned during the course of this conflict that there are areas in France that are still uninhabitable due to the events of WW1, a century ago.

A deeply depressing thing to think about.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

StrangersInTheNight posted:

To believe this you must ignore that it's not 1980 anymore and that Russia is no longer communist, but capitalist with a communist veneer slapped across it.

I think the term for what Russia and China are now is "authoritarian capitalist" and it bums me out when people in the west seem willing to embrace it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.
I don't know if anyone listens to NPR's State of Ukraine, but I thought this latest episode was interesting (and also depressing outlook wise)

NPR State of Ukraine posted:

Ukrainian soldiers speak bluntly about the challenges they face
After a year of war, Russia and Ukraine have lost many of their best troops. The problem for Ukraine is that Russia's far larger population means it likely could access far more troops to send to the front. NPR's Frank Langfitt talks to two front-line Ukrainian soldiers about the future of the conflict.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Jarf posted:

If they commited 100% of their forces to Ukraine China could just be like "oh wait, our border is actually supposed to be 100 miles north of here, oopsie".

I don't know what the appropriate thread if any to discuss this is, and I do not think that China is going to invade Russia, but it is my understanding that a lot of Chinese people believe the far eastern chunk of Russia (Vladivostok etc) belongs to China. (IIRC Russia took it from China in the mid 1800's.)

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.
The ICC warrant is unlikely to actually result in anything (unless someone coups and decides to hand him over) but I assume this means the already reportedly paranoid Putin won't be leaving Russia anytime soon -- well, except maybe Belarus/North Korea/China.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

On a ship of whatever flag, you count as in the country the flag belongs to.

The other thing here is that I can’t imagine Putin sailing around without some heavy security nearby, so you wouldn’t be able to arrest him without basically engaging Russian military and effectively starting a war before you even touch him.

Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Storkrasch posted:

Aligning with Russia hasn't really worked out either. A west-aligned Armenia could potentially give it some diplomatic way out if its geographical issues, whereas a Russia-aligned Armenia probably can't. The CSTO doesn't seem to exist anymore since Russia went whole hog into Ukraine.

Armenia seems to be making westward moves lately(Nancy Pelosi visit, anti-Russian protests, ICC statements), but NK will be a problem. Having the position that South Ossetia, Abkhazia, LNR and DNR are illegitimate while arguing that NK is 100% legitimate is tricky.

NK is... North Korea?

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Small White Dragon
Nov 23, 2007

No relation.

Zat posted:

After Hungary and Turkey have delivered their acceptance letters to the US State Department, NATO will send Finland an invitation letter, and Finland sends back an acceptance letter. When this final letter reaches the US State Dept., Finland officially becomes a full NATO member immediately.

This is handled by the US State Department? Isn't NATO HQ in Belgium?

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