Not these assholes again: Bundy sons, Militia seize federal building

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Not these assholes again: Bundy sons, Militia seize federal building

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Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Nonsense posted:

None of them will see jail time, they won't even be questioned, they'll be allowed to leave, the right declare victory, and they'll still get to go home to seeing Obama being impeached on the news over squashing gun rights.

Get out of my head.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 21:09

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:00

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Spun Dog posted:

Pointing and laughing seems to be working out fine, why go to the trouble? Let them pitch their fit and they can have a nap afterwards.

Their discomfort pleases me. I am feuled by schadenfreude.

Though I agree with the people way earlier in the thread, they should go full Norieaga on them and blast Master P's "Make 'em say Uhh" at them 24/7. I for one would enjoy watching them foam at the mouth with hate.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 21:49

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Spun Dog posted:

As long as we don't use Billy Joel, Supertramp or Yoko Ono. I was pissed when Cheney used torture and have not softened on the topic.

I've determined that "Make 'em say Uhh" infuriates racists more than any other song ever produced. I base this on entirely anecdotal evidence.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2016 21:57

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

It's sad to see that most of the country, including the Federal government and many of this forums leftists, are so terrified of offending the right wing that they practically sprint to appease armed mobs on the sole aspect of their political orientation.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 15:52

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

zeal posted:

They're not a sad joke anymore though. They started that way, when they shivered their asses off the first few nights. Now they've had time to actually stock up with food and fuel (in part thanks to local sympathizers), odd jobs from around and beyond the state are free to trickle in, and both the work and school schedules of the people who actually live in that area remain disrupted. They're a public nuisance, not a joke, and the longer they're left to their own devices, the more media attention they receive and the more hesitant federal officers seem to actually do something about them, the more full of themselves and their cause they'll be come. Once they're sufficiently high on their own self-righteousness they could graduate to become a public safety risk in that county. What's more important, in the national sense, is the message the standoff says to others who share the militiamen's ideals but have yet to act on them. Upthread someone who claimed to work as a ranger on federal lands out west talked about how the risk their colleagues see in this unfolding situation lies in antigovernment folk taking the feds' and local law enforcement's hesitance as a message that if they stand up for their rights with guns in hand (against, say the nosy park ranger coming by to check your fishing license out on the trails), that the government will back down. If the feds continue to mishandle this situation like they did the Bundy Ranch standoff, it sends the message that the authorities are indeed afraid to tackle right-wing militia groups when they decide owning guns puts them outside the rule of law.

This is the inevitable result.

Worse, I worry that it will inspire idealistic collegiate leftists to arm themselves for their next protest, thinking that the government/police won't just gun them all down. Spoiler alert; we've seen how that movie ends.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 17:56

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

McDowell posted:

What if they 'find' a BuK antiair system in one of the garages and declare sovereign airspace?

Well clearly they're just jokes and not a real threat, so the best move would be to supply missiles in an attempt to get them to not shoot down any passing commercial airlines.

quote:

The FBI hailed the Freemen standoff as a huge victory for its new approach. And it's clearly the playbook the federal government used in its standoff with Cliven Bundy in 2014 � where not only did no one die, but no one was even arrested after the fact.

This is not a victory you dumbfucks, this is why you have the Oregon situation, and the one after that, etc..

Talmonis fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jan 6, 2016

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 18:30

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

prefect posted:

Compared to Ruby Ridge, it's a victory.

I'll agree with that. But it still doesn't excuse why men threatening federal agents with weapons were not subsequently arrested after the situation simmered down and people went home.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 19:05

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

The exact same assholes from the last standoff with the federal government deciding to stir up more poo poo after getting away with it the first time isn't exactly a conspiracy.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 20:34

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Venom Snake posted:

Because his case is still ongoing.

His case, sure. What about the dozens of armed lunatics pointing guns at Federal agents? They're the ones who should have already been arrested.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 20:42

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

buttcoinbrony posted:

Yes they should be arrested but crimes don't exist in a vacuum. If we can wait for them to run out of snacks then arrest them quietly one by one that is far better than rolling up in armored cars and kicking off the Waco Memorial Race War.

And I agree with all of that, but again, my beef is that this didn't happen last time. There were no consequences to threatening Federal agents with violence. I'm all for arresting them when it's easy, which the past year or so after leaving the ranch when they're not all holed up armed together would have been.

That said, cut their power locally, so they don't hurt the ranchers nearby, because gently caress if taxpayers should be paying for them to enjoy heat and hot water during an armed occupation. And "Make 'em say Uhh" on a loop...a selfish desire I admit, but you can't tell me their reactions wouldn't be hilarious.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 20:55

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

DeusExMachinima posted:

On public roads? I thought that was just a rumor.

See, if we were arresting people for speech at the drop of a hat like some posters salivate over, you might be in deep poo poo under a Republican admin. The judge in the Hutaree militia case had the right idea. But I guess it's different when your team does it.

You might have half a point if the above poster and his friends were training and arming themselves in preparation for action. Words are just pissing into the wind, it's the prep that makes it a problem to be solved before they can act. The judge was wrong.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 18:21

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

cheerfullydrab posted:

State violence is directed at unarmed non-lawbreakers, rather than heavily-armed crazy people.

This, plus; If you don't see that as a problem, you're hosed in the head.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 18:56

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

the trump tutelage posted:

Yes.

Heavily armed men threatening violence to anyone who tries to stop their actual crime in progress warrants a larger response than unarmed protestors yelling about how police murder them indiscriminately. This shouldn't be controversial.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 19:09

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

SocketWrench posted:

Yeah, we know, because the law should move quick, build a lovely case, and then fall on their face when they fail so we can yell at them for doing what we told them to do.

Seems to work just fine against unarmed college students and black men.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 19:23

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Salt Fish posted:

Hm, what if we were human beings with brains and could intelligently appraise each situations pros and cons?

Nah, rules are rules, kill them all, obey or die.

Good thing nobody is calling for violence. But a response beyond "no no no, please don't do that you naught boys." on TV would be nice.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 19:24

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Salt Fish posted:

Why can't we raise the bar up instead of lowering all situations down to the most flagrant human rights violations?

Prosecuting rioters is not a rights violation. If they've broken the law, they get prosecuted. That should go for anyone, and works pretty swiftly for unarmed college students and black men who actually break the law.

Salt Fish posted:

What non-violent outcome is possible if police decide that they must end this stand off today?

Who put "Today" as an arbitrary condition? No, you prohibit their movement and ability to retain supplies. Find a way to cut the power to them without hurting the rest of the community. Actually show that you give a gently caress about what they're doing, instead of just letting them run ramshod all over the community and make a mockery of the Federal Government.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 19:29

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LGD posted:

Are you incredibly upset when OWS protesters and students conducting sit-ins disrupt local commerce, institutional functions, private events, and local enjoyment of public spaces?

If they were armed, I'd have had a serious problem with it...That and they'd all be dead right now.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 19:37

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

prefect posted:

Big TVs playing MSNBC 24 hours a day.

Master P's "Make 'em say Uhh." On a loop.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 21:27

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

prefect posted:

They're trespassing, for sure. But if the cops stormed in there, things would go bad in a hurry. Things haven't gotten super-bad yet, so they don't have to rush it.

I don't think you could make a case that these guys are making any kind of credible effort to overthrow the federal government.

Aside from amassing arms, and making a call to said arms for all those who would join them? It being laughable in it's very conception doesn't make them any less of a danger to themselves and others.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 21:33

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LGD posted:

Oh, I see, it's concern for their welfare that is making you advocate for swiftly putting them down by force.

This thread is loving hilarious, who knew D&D was so concerned with the danger of unpopular minorities engaging in seditious activity?

edit:

they're definitely not crimes D&D has historically favored prosecuting with maximal force, or even prosecuting at all in many cases of political activism

I mean leaving aside the hilarity of terming this "sedition" or being concerned with sedition at all

Come come now, you're giving away your whole game. There are no unpopular minorities in play here, just a load of privileged hicks who think the world isn't giving them their due deference. And again, I've not advocated force. I want them arrested for what they've done after they are broken, tired and no longer willing to sit in the dark with nothing to do, with nary a shot fired. Hopefully miserable and even more of a national laughingstock.

Armed occupation of federal property coupled with explicit threats of violence toward law enforcement is not peaceful protest.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 21:51

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LGD posted:

You refer to them as "hicks" in this post and nothing about the media coverage or general response to this incident would lead someone to the conclusion that they're anything but adherents of an extremely unpopular political philosophy. How is that not an unpopular political minority?

And how do you feel about the Black Panthers/Malcom X?

You mean those very same right wing militias that had the Republican Party go to bat for them and bury the DHS for reporting on their increasing numbers and plans? Those militias?

quote:

House Minority Leader John Boehner called the report "Offensive and Unacceptable" and demanded an "explanation for why she has abandoned using the term �terrorist� to describe those, such as al Qaeda, who are plotting overseas to kill innocent Americans, while her own Department is using the same term to describe American citizens who disagree with the direction Washington Democrats are taking our nation."

Boehner also said that the agency should apologize to veterans.

David K. Rehbein, the National Commander of the American Legion sent a letter of protest to the Homeland Security Secretary concerning the suggestion that veterans were likely to commit acts of terrorism. Rehbein said, "I think it is important for all of us to remember that Americans are not the enemy. The terrorists are."

Conservative journalist, Michelle Malkin, wrote an article on April 14, 2009, calling the report a "hit job on conservatives" and said that it was "one of the most embarrassingly shoddy pieces of propaganda I�d ever read out of DHS. I couldn�t believe it was real."

On April 16, 2009 Fox News reported that Secretary Napolitano issued an apology to veterans in an on air interview saying, "To the extent veterans read it as an accusation ... an apology is owed."

Napolitano offered this explanation, "This was an assessment, not an accusation. It was limited to extremists those who seek to commit violence within the United States. And all this was meant to do was to give law enforcement what we call 'situational awareness.'"

quote:

What happened to your DHS unit?
When the right-wing report was leaked and people politicized it, my management got scared and thought DHS would be scaled back. It created an environment where my analysts and I couldn't get our work done. DHS stopped all of our work and instituted restrictive policies. Eventually, they ended up gutting my unit. All of this happened within six to nine months after the furor over the report. Analysts then began leaving DHS. One analyst went to ICE [U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement], another to the FBI, a third went to the U.S. Marshals, and so on. There is just one person there today who is still a "domestic terrorism" analyst.

Since our report was leaked, DHS has not released a single report of its own on this topic. Not anything dealing with non-Islamic domestic extremism�whether it's anti-abortion extremists, white supremacists, "sovereign citizens," eco-terrorists, the whole gamut.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:17

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LGD posted:

Yeah those ones. There are all sorts of unpopular political minorities that still have some degree of political pull. OWS and BLM are obvious examples, and the ones I was thinking of when using the term "unpopular minority." They also have large numbers of adherents, have made political hay, and have/had elected politicians giving them cover.

This is really a semantic dispute though, the fundamental issue is that you're pushing for a broader definition of an aggressive enforcement of laws against sedition which for anyone on the "left" is just beyond loving hilarious given the historical context.

Thank heavens they're not armed and dangerous, theatening violence to anyone who tries to stop them from committing crimes then, or my stance would change.

Edit: And I'm not pushing for poo poo other than for every armed group to be treated equally.

Talmonis fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jan 7, 2016

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:34

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Volkerball posted:

OWS idea of civil disobedience was sitting down and blocking a sidewalk, where they were pepper sprayed and dragged away. If only they had guns and said if anyone points a gun at me, I'll point a gun at them, they wouldn't have been forcibly relocated, and the protest would've been more effective.

And Kent State already proved that if you're an uppity student, you don't even need to be armed to be butchered.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:38

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Jarmak posted:

Its almost as entertaining as watching a bunch of people who are normally falling all over themselves to condemn the police arresting left wing protesters for things like breaking and entering, trespassing, and vandalism because they're fighting the system or some bullshit be unable to contain their lust for seeing the other team brutalized to either A) realize how loving hypocritical that is or B) realize that what the FBI is doing right now is tactically the best thing to maximize the damage done to the militia movement by this bullshit.

Or, and this may shock you, everyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted for it, regardless of cause. Guilt is for the jury, and leniency for circumstance is for the sentencing judge to determine.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:41

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LGD posted:

You would change your semantic views on the phrase "unpopular minority" because of that? Seems odd.

No, I'd consider them a problem.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:44

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Jarmak posted:

Pictured here: not white people

Why yes, this picture does indeed show young people of various races. Congratulations?

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 22:56

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

theflyingorc posted:

why the hell should that be more important than taking action in a crowded area.

i am much more concerned with the government dealing with things that impact daily life than i am concerned with them not tolerating anybody steppin' on their turf

Those darn uppity kids and their sit-ins. They should just go arm themselves and take over the Alamo instead, like those nice militia folks.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 23:01

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Salt Fish posted:

The goal of incarceration shouldn't be vengeance. It should be to protect society from an individual until such time as they are able to be rehabilitated. Given that his individual wasn't a threat to anyone while under house arrest what exactly is your compliant? Are you just bloodthirsty? Do you insist that unlawful behavior must be paid for with a pound of flesh?

Equal justice. And the man was absolutely a threat to his grandchildren who he had no legal right to keep prisoner. Their father has now not seen them in 15 years. I do believe that did some harm.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 23:03

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Jarmak posted:

Yeah you're right, the 3 black people in the whole crowd of white people really makes that "Occupy Cleveland was classified as terrorist and the reason Bundy isn't is because he's white" argument make sense.

You're bad at this. The issue is that he's right-wing and white, not just white. Students get hosed because they're seen as leftists. Minorities always get hosed regardless. If some Right Wing hard line muslims took over federal lands, the military would be called in to remove them.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 23:04

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Salt Fish posted:

2 wrongs don't make a right fyi

No, they don't. But there needs to be equality, and there isn't. The double standard just keeps going and going, because the Republicans will always protect their racist, neo-confederate base.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2016 23:09

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

LeoMarr posted:

Of course it will still be standing. They wouldnt burn down their own occupied territory. The tarp can only hold so many snacks.

Depends, they might burn it out of spite on their way out when they eventually surrender or leave.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 14:57

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Real hillbillies tend to be too poor to be much of a threat to anyone. The ones people are talking about ITT are just rural consevatives who storm about in cowboy hats and belt buckles yelling about Obama.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 15:32

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Mr. Wookums posted:

I would think someone who advocates that the Feds treat all equally should care. And yes, they are innocent; it's entrapment even if the crime is domestic terrorism. The only reference to Cleveland (including memo headers) is
I don't see what rational the JTTF/FBI would have had regarding investigation, let alone orchestrating a bomb plot starting in Occupy Cleveland. That action is the FBI treating OWS as a terrorist group, despite, as you noted, recognizing them as a peaceful group. Just because the feds did not kill thousands of people does not imply that they treated OWS equally with Bundy and other right militias who the feds do not consider to be Terrorists.

By order of the Republican Party, let's not forget.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 19:21

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

theflyingorc posted:

Sure, but one occurrence doesn't a trend make. Let's get more than a single data point before we declare that these guys are getting away with it. If they DO just walk away from it, we can talk about that. But it's super obvious they shouldn't be trying to arrest these guys right now, the potential for somebody to get shot, and maybe inspire other militias, is really really high

The blockade thing I think has more difference of opinion. I'm sorta ambivalent but I would like to see these guys look stupid so I'd be cool with it, but I can imagine that it could legitimize them more than the feds want to, so i dunno, it seems reasonable to me, but maybe there's considerations I'm not privy to?

I think a big part of the disconnect is that the FBI isn't actually taking these guys that seriously, but recognizes that any storm the gates behavior is inherently dangerous, even against a bunch of pathetic dummies

Part of the problem is the difference in treatment for just about any other movement or organization. Nobody sane is calling for use of excessive force, but no response at all aside from a stern "tsk tsk" on the TV is bullshit.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 19:25

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:00

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.