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How will you be voting in the UKEU Referendum? This poll is closed. |
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| Remain - Keep Britane Strong! |
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328 | 15.40% |
| Leave - Take Are Sovreignity Back! |
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115 | 5.40% |
| Remain - But only because Brexit are crazy |
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506 | 23.76% |
| Leave - But only because the EU is terrible |
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157 | 7.37% |
| Spoiled Ballot - This whole thing is an awful idea |
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61 | 2.86% |
| I'm not going to vote |
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19 | 0.89% |
| I'm not allowed to vote |
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411 | 19.30% |
| Pissflaps |
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533 | 25.02% |
| Total: | 2130 votes | ||
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Nitrousoxide posted:The BBC has engaged in censorship to toe the government line. Here's one particularly widespread and egregious example.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:01
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| # ¿ May 17, 2024 21:40 |
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We used to get five different newspapers on a Sunday and read them as a family, and the Mail on Sunday had the best magazine.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:03
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We have hosed this
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Jun 24, 2016 18:42
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forkboy84 posted:It'd be neat if Ober, while he's probated, would put together that Marxist reading list for the OP.
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Jun 24, 2016 18:45
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Joda posted:Is there any particular reason why Scotland shouldn't be accepted with open arms in the EU? They're a European nation who believe in the project. For the same reason, is there any particular reason why Scotland wouldn't just accept a regular membership? For Scotland, I don't think there's emotional resistance to joining as a "normal" member, including adopting the Euro. But the practical difficulties of having your only land-border be with a non-EU member (who would be your largest trading partner, speak the same language, lots of businesses have branches in both, family members now separated by a passport border) means that Scotland has to make the call of which membership benefits it more - EU or UK. The problem is that there's just been such a stark difference in the vote, and Scotland has now had a completely unwanted change imposed on it (I think more than any in the history of the Union, despite what the Yes campaign would have said) that people are now far more willing to tell the rest of the UK to gently caress off. No won in 2014 because the majority of people didn't feel a wall of separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK (actually meaning England), but they certainly will now. edit: Let's say it takes 3 years for the UK to officially leave the EU. There will be a second Scottish referendum before that time, which Yes will win. If there's only a few months overlap between UK leaving the EU and Scotland leaving the UK, I can see Scotland just sort of ignoring everything and existing in this interim legal state. But if there's 18 or 24 months, what happens then? They change the passports twice? Hoops fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 22:10
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Pissflaps posted:I think for Scotland to get independence the SNP has to make it happen now, while emotions are high. The young No voters who were also young Remain voters will feel the most hurt by this because the horizon of their personal identity is so much wider. I think they'll give up being British for being European.
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Jun 25, 2016 22:25
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I don't care about Corbyn's suits or anything about what he does with his cabinet, and I certainly don't give a gently caress about PMQs, but the Labour leadership dodged this whole referendum when they should have been convincing their base of the positives of the EU. Ironically though, as a pragmatist, whether Corbyn wanted to stay in or not doesn't matter any more, because the vote is over. So all that's left is to decide whether he's the right person to run the left-wing party of the UK we have now.
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Jun 25, 2016 22:32
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forkboy84 posted:He campaigned loads. Just because the press didn't cover it because he's not exciting doesn't mean it didn't happen. (disclaimer because I know how the UKMT works - this is a conversation about the Labour party and their voters, it goes without saying that the Leave campaign take far far more of the blame than anyone on the Remain side, but I already know full well whether or not they should be leading anything)
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Jun 25, 2016 22:45
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SUNKOS posted:Corbyn managed to get the majority of Labour supporters to vote remain
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Jun 25, 2016 22:51
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quote:What is gained, after the Leave voters won, by yelling at Corbyn for not convincing the winning side they were wrong? As opposed to Corbyn's apparently tactic of "Well, we're out, I understand why, lets get some work done,". He is literally the only politician apart from Sturgeon at the moment who appears to have some idea of what he's doing and Labour seems to be furious at him for not mourning or panicking enough. Tesseraction posted:You're statistically illiterate too I see.
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Jun 25, 2016 23:32
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brawleh posted:Corbyn is doing the right things by the Labour party with a more grassroots approach - concern about his popularity or whatever is missing the point.... I'll phrase it as: Discussions about Corbyn always boil down to accelerationism versus gradualism. I can't count how many times I've read someone post "the Overton window has shifted to the right so much in recent years...." in this thread, so my question is how does that reconcile to having a true socialist as the alternative option to a government that increased their vote share on an austerity platform? Maybe the wrong week to be making this claim, but British political history does not have a lot of incidences of massive governmental shifts. The government that came after is usually not that different to the government that came before, I just don't think it's how the voters vote unless it suddenly gets massively, massively worse like it did in Greece. So I understand what every one of you are saying. But my point is about the virtues of risk-aversion - what if it doesn't work? My first choice would be Corbyn becomes prime minister and implements robust socialist policies. If we can't get that (and we probably won't get that), I can live with Chuka for five years, Sadiq Khan five after that, then - after we've shifted the beloved Overton window to the left a few points, normalised a centre-left voice again, and made the Tories move to the middle again like they did in the 2000s - try it with a real socialist. it's playing it much more safe but it limits the possibility of Labour getting blown out of the water and it's 15-20 years of Tory governments, with Labour being forced to move even further to the right to grab back votes. Thing is, I believe that most of the thread have considered all of the above as well. So one thing I want to point out is that there's no reason the choice has to be build grassroots or have a clear national message. It's not "Corbyn" or "a Blairite robot", it's "Corbyn who becomes more effective at presenting his message amongst those he needs to convince" or "Corbyn who loses at the GE, gets ousted by treacherous short-sighted backbenchers and the left doesn't get another chance for a generation". How well he's doing with the man on the street is irrelevant, the PLP have the power to get rid of him and they *will* do it unless something changes. I'm not happy about it either. Hoops fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 00:37
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nopantsjack posted:I mean that is quite literally what is happening with Corbyn?
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Jun 26, 2016 00:47
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"Fairness in the welfare system"
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Jun 26, 2016 00:54
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Nah mate he got a first round knockout
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Jun 26, 2016 01:27
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Wildstrike posted:Hoey's my MP and she's always all over the place in ways that make no sense. Pro-Leave when she represents the most solidly Remain area in the country outside of the City of London and Gibraltar but also saying she'll oppose a motion of no confidence in Corbyn. He would be removing the whip from one of the only MPs that has said they'll support his leadership. http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10282/kate_hoey/vauxhall#votes Certainly someone who doesn't blindly follow the party line. I guess she averages out as "Labour", but she could be in basically any party and would still be one of their rebel MPs. Hoops fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jun 26, 2016 |
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Jun 26, 2016 02:28
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I cannot believe how much mental poo poo is going on right now. And just how mental many of them are. It's honestly difficult to fully comprehend.
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Jun 26, 2016 13:03
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qhat posted:I liked Andy Burnham, and I continue to like him today.
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Jun 26, 2016 13:16
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Who thinks he'll make it to the end of the day? I think he might.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:40
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Kilmers Elbow posted:'mom' ?
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Jun 27, 2016 12:42
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Did they change the rules from the last one? Can the £3 supporters still vote?
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Jun 27, 2016 12:46
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Fans posted:He won't leave unless they can beat him in an election, he's made that clear. They could all resign and he'd just offer jobs to newer MP's and Lords. He'll weather them out unless they force it with a leadership challenge.
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Jun 27, 2016 12:49
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Didn't the thread just tear into a guy who admitted he voted Leave a few pages ago?
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Jun 27, 2016 13:03
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:Still waiting for anyone who wants Corbyn out to present a coherent vision of what happens if he goes. Does anyone seriously think any of Umunna, Jarvis and Nandy are ready or capable of defeating a right-surging Tory party in a right-surging country? If so, why? Also yes I do think Chuka Umunna is certainly capable of winning the general election, same with Dan Jarvis. I'd rather not have to vote for them though.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:12
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Yeah it's getting more and more clear "Corbyn actually voted for Leave" is a rumour that's being spread to put the boot in.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:18
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SUNKOS posted:I can't believe that our economy is freefalling into oblivion right now following a referendum campaign of straight lies and the media only cares about smearing the political career of a leader whose voting base did some of the most work to keep the country in the EU while the real villains are apparently free to go on holiday. What the gently caress is going on? At least Corbyn is around and actually doing something, where the gently caress are the Tories? They caused this mess, but nobody wants to point a finger at them because???
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Jun 27, 2016 13:22
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NO gently caress YOU DAD posted:See, this is the sort of thing I'm after. A general idea of policy would be nice too, but I can't complain about forum posts when senior political figures can't muster anything beyond hysteria.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:33
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Miftan posted:Would they though? I swear people who can't bear any criticism of Corbyn think "leader of a political party" is synonymous with "person who has the best ideas" and isn't actually a job with responsibilities where you have to do specific things to manage the party. The leader actually has to do things to keep the party under control, it's not just being "head of socialism" and everyone listening to you. It's not news that a lot of other MPs in a party don't like the leader, that's always been the case. It's not an easy thing to wrangle a political party into doing what you want them to, and he's no good at it. Most party leaders in the past, who many or may not have had preferable political views, have been better at it and therefore have been able to get things done because the whole bag of cats hasn't burst and everyone ran wild. To summarise - being the best player doesn't mean you should be the team captain.
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Jun 27, 2016 13:54
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Nothing is surprising this week.
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Jun 27, 2016 15:29
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Let's just knock this leadership election out quickly. If Corbyn wins a big mandate, he wins the battle, end of. Right now he's in this very awkward position of a brutal insult from his party, while pointing to a leadership election that happened ages ago in political terms.
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Jun 28, 2016 21:35
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thespaceinvader posted:lol like gently caress, he conclusively won the leadership battle 9 months ago and has exceeded every arbitrary test set for him in the hope that he'd fail and give and excuse for kicking him out.
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Jun 28, 2016 22:01
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The best thing for The Northern Powerhouse would be the election of visible, powerful mayors of Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, to do exactly what Sturgeon does every day. Potentially only Manchester to start with otherwise they'll crowd each other out. It'll accelerate the gently caress out of federalism as they'll have to be essentially be like US state governors, but if Andy Burnham can do it and be on TV regularly then that could potentially make a big difference. Always a suit, never ever ever in those big medal things that mayors wear.
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Jun 28, 2016 22:10
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As stunts go it's certainly worth the punt.
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Jun 28, 2016 22:18
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That room looks poo poo Edit: literally, the meeting room
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Jun 28, 2016 22:25
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Haha has the UKMT gone over Martin McGuiness and the Queen today?
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Jun 28, 2016 22:34
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Jose posted:if people want a reason corbyn is unelectable its because he's really not liked up north *not attacking Corbyn, I like him and support his policies, I voted for him" *not attacking Corbyn, I like him and support his policies, I voted for him" *not attacking Corbyn, I like him and support his policies, I voted for him" *not attacking Corbyn, I like him and support his policies, I voted for him"
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Jun 29, 2016 22:22
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Munin posted:The biggest difference in terms of what drives party membership is that primaries are not a thing. The way candidates are picked in the UK is totally different (opaque and undemocratic).
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Jun 30, 2016 22:29
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JeffersonClay posted:I had no idea. So who cares if Corbyn got 60% of the vote in the last labour leadership election if less than 2% of the electorate voted? But the issue is exactly as you point out, i think it would be a disastrous mistake to assume that result scales up much beyond the very odd leadership contest last year. I agree with whoever said it was actually a battle for the soul of the party, but only at that level. Once you get out of paid up party members and into the general voters we just go back to "who do I want to be prime minister?". This is why the constant sarcasm about "electability" feels like people trying to pretend the conversation is about something smaller than it actually is. In US presidential campaigns, one school of thought is that rather than current voting intention, the most important thing is a candidate's "consider" score, being the % of people that would even consider voting for them. The closer your consider score is to your poll results, the more polarising you are as candidate as it shows you have a die-hard support and a firm ceiling. Clearly that's Trump this time, with the opposite being someone like Ben Carson who almost everyone could hypothetically imagine themself, under a specific set of circumstances, with no better options, begrudgingly being okay with voting for. So I think consider score might be Corbyns problem. P.s are the lib dems positioning themselves as the single issue party for voting down Brexit? I think that will actually work out getting then a massive vote boost.
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Jun 30, 2016 22:49
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The EU will never negotiate with anyone who isn't the leader of the government or the finance minister right? Which of two things we as a country sort of don't have right now. So any negotiation will never happen prior to a new PM and article 50 being invoked, right?
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Jun 30, 2016 23:02
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