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Raenir Salazar posted:I wish the "Left" was a unified disciplined force for change to the extent the Right thinks it was. It kind of is, now that those "Bernie Bros" who were "not real Democrats" and definitely "racist and sexist" are you know, actually protesting and organizing rather than just meekly going "sigh, I guess we weren't racist enough" and "time to heal". If the Democratic party doesn't start making a break with Clintonian Third-way liberalism, it'll happen again. They learned nothing from Obama, and they seem content to remain the spineless shits they've been forever.
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Nov 19, 2016 07:54
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Ugh. Let me not forget incompetent shits. You basically looked at Romney believing he would win and took that to mean, oh, the demographics will save us, despite voter suppression, and hosed. It. Up. I get that our elections are complete and utter bullshit that hurts governance and reasonable political dialogue, but until you have the power and will to change them, you have to WIN them.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:01
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Business Gorillas posted:i'd say that they're right that the Bernard Brothers weren't real democrats, they're actual leftists True, and rather embracing us, they wasted their money haranguing us, chasing a political middle that doesn't really exist any more. Obama made so many better decisions as a moderate liberal to pull in leftists it's really something that should be a lesson to all future politicians.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:04
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citybeatnik posted:Go on... If your identity politics don't consider class, they're poo poo. If your class politics don't consider identity, they're poo poo. It's the height of liberalism to separate them because that may force them to realize capitalism isn't inherently the great equalizer that it's portrayed as. They may have to sound a little... Pinko. Luckily it's not the Cold anymore...
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Nov 19, 2016 08:08
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Business Gorillas posted:i would argue that Obama was the same poo poo Hillary was peddling but in a package that could actually sell. Clinton looked at Obama and pretty much said "yeah, i can beat that" and then proceeded to tell coal country (and the entire rust belt indirectly) that they're screwed Perhaps. I give him a bit of pass because when he finally got to be Trollobama after 2014 there were good things and so very refreshing things, even as he was droning people. Either way, despite his obvious distaste with campaigning, he had people who knew how to market it, and realized it was a marketing thing, and not just a reward for good service.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:12
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citybeatnik posted:So we should lie to folks? The thing is, trying to get a sound bite is part of the problem. Yes, have the sound bite for moderate dingbats and business folks high on their own supply. But you need to be credible enough that politics nerds like D&Ders have something to sell and a desire to harass their friends to vote rather than a meek, welp, guess I'm voting Democrat again... 
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Nov 19, 2016 08:16
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Swan Oat posted:is class an identity, or a material condition? Yes. Let me explain. While the American class system is more based on material condition than the UK's, where it's tied to a history of nobility, it still has cultural boundaries that are enforced in ways to increase benefits for the Upper Class. That is, since "we're your betters" doesn't fly as well in the US, the capitalist class hides themselves by pretending they are actually just poor middle class people like you. Then once everyone's middle class you get the poor and nouveaux middle to turn against other middle class/professional class people as "elites", and poor people as "parasites". Then they offer the benefits of middle class to you for upholding this... at interest.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:25
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citybeatnik posted:We are a tiny minority and should not be catered to. That's the going thought. The amount of ratfuckery I saw here tamping down on it shows otherwise. We're a minorty, but in a place where the majority has little knowledge of politics, but realize the media is peddling bullshit, people like us are who are turned to. People like us are those who are willing to do the boring politicking and volunteering and ground work for campaigns they believe in. It's like when companies are chasing cool. They don't go after what the majority of kids are doing, they go after the kids that are seen as taste makers, that the majority of kids listen to. The Tea Party is a minorty also, but rather than making GBS threads on them, they got co-opted. And it had its flaws, but also has paid benefits.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:32
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Trabisnikof posted:Now say that all in six words or less. The Great Society.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:35
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citybeatnik posted:The Tea Party is also an astroturf movement. If you want to set up a blue version of it I'm down. People generally want to vote, you just need to minimize the leg work for them. I had friends leaving a con early so they can go caucus and things like that. And then when I showed up, there was no room to caucus because way more people showed than could possibly fit in the building.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:39
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citybeatnik posted:L'Union Fait La Force. Out of many, one. Someone should write that down or something.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:41
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Basically, understand that the Democratic Party grew fat and lazy leaning on party machines and general expectations of media support. As those machines have lost power, so too have they. TV and now the Internet took discussion back into the hands of us morons, and rather than grapple with that, they made superdelegates, and supported Law and Order since it marginalized the left.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:45
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citybeatnik posted:But did they vote later on? Did they commit to the drudgery that is actual politics? It's really tough to say because unlike most states, Washington makes it much easier to vote through mail in voting. But from what I've seen most of my friends voted, and I definitely made sure my roommates voted.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:47
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citybeatnik posted:To be fair, if the GOP had super-delegates we wouldn't have gotten Trump. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm tired of only right wing bad populism winning. Give me the American Lenin rather than the American Mussolini. 
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Nov 19, 2016 08:48
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Fojar38 posted:A) Superdelegates have been around since the 80's I'm less talking about superdelegates in particular, and more at the bullshit primary system that has more to do with endorsements and media attention than the actual contests.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:51
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Fojar38 posted:How about no American versions of infamous dictators Too late! Because liberals were so up their asses to take 2016 seriously enough!
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Nov 19, 2016 08:52
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citybeatnik posted:Texas has no-fault early voting. Most states do not. Trying to explain that to my folks when they started going on about why make it easier to vote when it's already easy at least opened their eyes a bit. Yeah, they are bad examples. I'm just angry. I let liberals soothe me and they let me down. Just ugh.
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Nov 19, 2016 08:54
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z0glin Warchief posted:The only thing people hate more than being the fool is having that pointed out to them. Yep, and for all his flaws, Trump knows how to con people.
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Nov 19, 2016 09:02
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socialsecurity posted:Why does it have to do more with endorsements do you really think the average voter cares about them that much? That's exactly the problem. Voters don't care, but the media and party flacks care. Primaries until recently have been mainly a show that is "decided" by Super Tuesday when the media declares a presumptive nominee, and the endorsed candidate drops out. Yes, there were truly contested primaries in the past, but from 1980 to 2008, they were just a slight show election making up for smoke filled rooms. E: Basically, the primary system is a lie to make people feel better. While it being more democratic may lead to poo poo heads sailing through it, like in the Republican primary, they at least actually have the support of some group of voters. foobardog fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 10:10
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galenanorth posted:I have trouble with the idea the response, when I've seen people criticize things like superdelegates, primaries are run by private parties, so they can be as anti-democratic as they want to be. By that logic, there's nothing stopping the Republican Party and Democratic Party from just agreeing to not hold primaries and just nominating the same candidate... is there? It's part of the blindness to parties that affected the founders, and people have hewed close since before Nixon, the parties were not so ideologically narrow. But at the same time it'd be like the Queen dissolving Parliament. She certainly could, but it'd be the start of a civil war. E: But I would have said the same thing about a government shutdown, and welp.
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Nov 19, 2016 11:00
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Hollismason posted:There's literally someone that's named after two civil war generals in his administration I know you mean Confederate generals in particular, but that's really meaningless. It's not like little Jeff Sessions got angry his mother originally named him Lincoln Ulysses Sessions or something and had it changed. e: Jeff Sessions should earn your fear on his own terrible racist account.
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Nov 21, 2016 06:51
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Fojar38 posted:Bannon isn't a cabinet member. Who are the other nazis he's put in cabinet so far? Actually, thinking on this, I ran into this while yelling at my family back home in the south. You're right, they may be only Confederates instead of Nazis. Let us never forget America's own rich history of racism.
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Nov 21, 2016 06:53
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm glad that people give anime porn avatars to people that make them mad now, because the pavlovian effect is that bad opinions get me hard. This is the point of D&D, isn't it? A circle jerk of impossibly minded political perverts making each other hard with their twice warmed over takes, seeking that second of feeling in their brain stem when they are technically correct; that moment where their eyes cloud over with dreams of "futa communism now" as they plop words across the screen. 
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Nov 27, 2016 14:36
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cheese posted:This can't be real. Click the date and have your expectations about reality rocket further towards negative infinity.
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Nov 27, 2016 22:20
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citybeatnik posted:Or trolling. Most easily trolled forum, after all.
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Nov 28, 2016 00:55
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Don't forget there's plenty of minorities within the Republican party who can overlook that for their class benefits that comes from making GBS threads on the poor as a whole. Or accepting themselves as "one of the good ones". This blindness to the fact that no minority or oppressed group walks in lockstep is part of the failure of liberal discussion of issues.
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Nov 28, 2016 06:02
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the black husserl posted:There's no secret cabal dude, I'm talking you suckers getting played constantly by the laziest trolls. Instead of talking about Trump's latest lurch into authoritarian hilarity we've got 100 posts about "is fear of muslims RATIONAL?" USPOL has become the bizarro world version of CNN having "Are Jews People?" as a headline.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:53
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Guy Goodbody posted:How was Obama to the right of Clinton? The only big policy difference between them that I remember is Clinton supported a healthcare mandate and Obama didn't. Remember that there were people seriously arguing during the primary that Clinton was somehow to the "left" of Sanders, or at least more "left" on race (?), and even so they all agreed 93% of the time (that is, on bills that came before the leftist hotbed that is the US Senate they voted the same 93% of the time). Words have lost all meaning.
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Nov 29, 2016 03:57
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Lumpy the Cook posted:Guns aren't inherently 'right' or 'left', they're guns. There's a reason armed left-wing groups have been targeted and taken out almost instantly throughout US history. Yes. This. Mind you I think it's important to still focus and include social issues like guns, race, gender, and sexuality in the party platform, because gently caress you if your class politics ignores identity and vice versa.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:09
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So is there anything stopping Obama from making a nationally televised speech on what the Republicans are doing and describing in detail exactly all the bad things that are going to happen as a result? Because it'll be nice to have that for posterity when all those bad things happen over the next couple years. Most likely the fact that Obama is a liberal buying the "come together and heal line". I mean good on him if he mimics Eisenhower's "Military-Industrial Complex" speech, but it doesn't seem like he's the guy who would do it. Don't get your hopes up for Biden, either.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:13
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Mnoba posted:https://tomprice.house.gov/HR2300 Ah, HSAs. Because the problem was that poor people without insurance weren't saving enough of their vast amounts of wealth.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:17
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Guy Goodbody posted:It is not actually important to focus on guns Well, now that normalcy is out the window and it seems like Civil War 2 is closer than ever, yeah.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:19
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Mustached Demon posted:Yeah you just have to look at voluntary retirement accounts like 401ks across income levels to see how hosed HSAs are. I remember sitting in a meeting when they were changing 401k plans, and realizing how pensions have been replaced with "give your money to the financial industry to gamble". Good times.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:25
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Nevvy Z posted:What prevents someone from just making a not lovely insurance company and scooping up their customers? Perhaps some large organization that takes in funding from diverse sources and can provide insurance without the need for profit forcing them to nickel and dime the people they insure. If only such an organization existed. Guy Goodbody posted:I don't think Civil War is actually very close We'll see.
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Nov 29, 2016 04:30
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Fojar38 posted:Can someone please point out the organized army and collection of independent-states-to-be that is going to fill the role of one of the belligerents in coming Civil War 2 Oh, I'm sorry, I guess we'll have to wait for the actual nullification crisis to happen first. It'll be cool, guys!
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Nov 29, 2016 04:39
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Boon posted:You're missing a fundamental and powerful element of humanity, and that is a sense of fairness. It applies just as much to an aggregate as it does on a personal level. The problem is, Just World Fallacy satisfies people there, too. It's "fair" that say, some one is poor, they "deserve" it for some presumed failure. The bias to see your flaws and problems as merely being unlucky or temporary, while others' flaws are a sign of their poor personality or choices runs deep. Yes, we have that sense of fairness, but we spend quite a bit of time learning it out of our children.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:52
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I'll also point out that spite is such a common human emotion. Arguably, it's a necessary drive to punish possible betrayers within this iterated Prisoner's Dilemma we call life. The tat in the tit-for-tat strategy.
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Nov 29, 2016 07:57
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Hollismason posted:Well to be fair it was actually Republican Legislature and Governors ,but yeah it's not even remotely something that makes any kind of rational sense. If you understand it as knowing that accepting the ACA will eventually lead to the loss from your job due to either getting primaried or the success of national Democrats bringing in state Democrats on their coattails. As well as putting you in a position where you "owe" Obama and the Democrats, it becomes more rational. Especially when the insurance companies keep the campaign donations coming, and the right wing media will find a way to distract your constituents. E: Rational means acting in self-interest based on your current knowledge, and can lead to altruism, but it's not at all necessary. foobardog fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Nov 29, 2016 |
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Nov 29, 2016 08:03
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Boon posted:The idea of what's fair is odd, because it can be applied in so many ways. In the case of Dan Price it was obvious that people would resent "working hard years" to get where they were only to see it all invalidated in a stroke. Then let me be more specific. What we learn and seem to have is is a very limited sense of fairness that extends to those were consider "the same". Outside of that, we are quite vicious to "the Other". And we spend a great deal teaching kids who "the other" is. These ideas are very much flexible, basic society works on including perfect strangers as "the same". But don't confuse this limited idea of fairness for the type of wide ranging fairness you assume. We're poo poo people, but we can imagine better, so we have to try.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:10
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not sure how democratic workforces and profit sharing are empowering people to act on a personal level, since what you're describing is essentially enforced collective bargaining. Like, unions are generally democratic organizations. Aside from it being impossible, I don't know why people who are opposed to unions would suddenly be on board for (almost) literal socialism. I also don't know how this solves the problem of large numbers of people being left behind by an economy that no longer values their skills. I think workplace democracy will sound great to most Americans until someone points out that whiny Goldbricking college boy you're always pulling out of the fire gets a vote too.
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Nov 29, 2016 08:14
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