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Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I never knew that what I really really really wanted from my Star Wars was Bladerunner music but there it is.

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Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

That was some top-notch Star Warsing, and I fervently hope that we'll be seeing more Giorgio Moroder being injected into future scores.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

TheCenturion posted:

Just lol if you’re not stylin’ on fools in your sweet TiE Interceptor.
Agreedo.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

TheCenturion posted:

Serve the Emperor before all others.
Simply pleased as punch to be the Emperor's stool pigeon.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

"Anakin, stop showing off and just use the Force to make his fingers bend the wrong way already, cripes." - Obi-wan Kenobi (internal dialogue) (I don't remember if Obi-wan was actually present or not and can't be arsed to look it up but it's what he would've thought, anyway.)

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Spookydonut posted:

Either disney owns it or doesn't, there's no way any dumb conditions about releasing certain cuts of movies would be legally binding.
You can be the owner of something and still be contractually bound in some way regarding its use. That contractual obligation would technically be separate from your property rights, and any claim from that other party would specifically arise from a breach of contract rather than some violation of said property rights. It may even be possible to set up a transfer of ownership in a way that the next party to become owner will be bound by such contractual obligations, for example when a municipality sells off real estate but wants to permanently restrict what its owners will do with it, or even to require them to perform certain actions.

No idea if Lucas and Disney have made any such arrangements, though.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I'd be quite surprised if Disney agreed to conditions of this kind, certainly, but I wouldn't really expect such details to ever become public either - especially because proof of Disney being willing to make such concessions could undermine their position in any future negotiations about IP rights. Also, I don't believe it's outside the realm of possibility that Lucas actually did insist the prequels would always be canon and that Disney would never (fully) release the Holiday Special; and if that were the case, I could see Disney execs (no doubt to the company lawyers' despair) shrugging their shoulders and going "oh well what the hell", because at the end of the day the franchise is worth ungodly amounts of money regardless and with a bunch of MU movies under their belt already, they must've understood that you don't need to go back and reboot everything to keep milking a titanic cash cow.

Still, you're most likely right and Disney can do whatever the hell they like with the IP now, no strings attached. Maybe they'll start making alternative timeline films based on the old EU, starting with the fine work of the most honourable Kevin J. Anderson? :unsmigghh:

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Megillah Gorilla posted:

lol at this bullshit from Wookiepeedia:

Though reading the wiki about it does say all the planets blown up were in the Hosnian system, including the capital of the New Republic, which just happened to bear a striking resemblance to Coruscant. I had always thought they were blowing up planets in multiple different systems which is even stupider.
I never understood why the New Republic capital wasn't Coruscant to begin with. I bet the thought process just boiled down to "well blowing up Coruscant would be going a bit far wouldn't it", and, well, I mean

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

Wasn’t the politics of the new republic more like a 50/50 two state system between the non-fasc empire government structure and the free republic now somehow co-existing? I imagine coruscant would remain mainly empire leaning so the republic would need a different hub
Maybe, the sequels weren't particularly forthcoming with details on the state of the galaxy and I couldn't really be arsed to look up whatever contrived scenario they'd devised. From what I understand, however, the concept of the First Order came from the idea of the Nazis who fled to Brazil actually getting organised while keeping a low profile, and going all-in on technical superiority so that they could eventually take over again. It's kind of difficult to imagine half the galaxy still being essentially loyal to the Empire of yore, but the First Order existing besides that as this dubious but seemingly impotent remnant of the old power structure. Regardless, I always thought it was nonsensical that 1) the Resistance essentially had no support at all from the New Republic and 2) the New Republic could be entirely dismantled by blowing up a few planets in one system. How loving small is the galaxy supposed to be by now?

Sash! posted:

I'm sure if you went back 200 hundred years ago and told people that there was a European union and asked them where the capital was... Brussels wouldn't be their first, second, third, fourth, or fifth guess.
It's only been some 30 years since the fall of the Empire, while up to that point Coruscant had been the galactic capital for millennia. There's really no comparison to Brussel emerging as the de facto EU capital in the course of the 20th century.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Megillah Gorilla posted:

But also, by that logic, they would have policies in place to deal with the event of a superweapon destroying their capital.

Huh, maybe that's the explanation for how Lando got a zillion ships to follow him in the space of a less than a day - they were already being assembled.
Unless I remember incorrectly, RoS very strongly implied that no organised response was to be expected, and all the Resistance handful of people left to oppose the First Order and Palps had left was a gigantic hail Mary that the good people of the galaxy would rise up with them at the eleventh hour if they asked them to.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

ninjahedgehog posted:

I think that argument ROTJ and TLJ ultimately make though isn't that the Jedi are bad as a concept, but that the prequel Jedi didn't live up to what a Jedi should be and that Luke and Rey ultimately do. Luke rejects the prequel-era shunning of attachments, but in the same breath unambiguously declares himself a Jedi, like his father before him. This is further reinforced with his last line in TLJ being "I will not be the last Jedi" followed immediately by a shot of Rey doing cool Jedi poo poo. Luke improved on failings of the Jedi before him, and as he takes his last breath he knows that Rey will improve on his own failings in turn.
The problem with TLJ is that it starts out by supposedly subverting all expectations and having Luke proclaim that the Force isn't about lifting rocks and Kylo argue that the past should be burned etc., but in the end it throws all that out of the window again because here's Yoda (the symbol of the old Jedi Order if there ever was one) lecturing Luke once more on how to be a Jedi oh and all the old Jedi scriptures have been saved and also now we're literally back to lifting rocks in order to save the day. Despite all the teasing, nothing much happens with Rey or Kylo either. For one tantalising moment, it seems like one might switch sides or they might choose a new path together - and then it's over and we're back to square one. Everything pretty much gets reset before the credits roll; small wonder that TRoS did not try anything remotely adventurous. That's not to say that TLJ doomed TRoS to be as dire as it is, but TLJ really did waste just about every opportunity it had for setting up an interesting finale to the trilogy.

SlothfulCobra posted:

"Think about the most effective way to do something instead of blundering in to make things worse" doesn't sound like bad advice though. Especially if you're genuinely privy to some sort of cosmic extrasensory insight to help you understand things. And it's weird to accuse the Jedi of being too dispassionate and uninvolved because the entire fall of the order happened because of them jumping into a fight without finishing the investigation of what was happening.
It rather reminds me of Kreia's lesson on charity/cruelty - which is fair enough if you're Space Ayn Rand, but whether a Jedi should therefore elect to just do nothing instead and leave people to their own devices is, shall we say, debatable. To that extent, I agree with Luke. Except of course that this is Star Wars and Jedi rushing off in blind fury to murder people is a good loving recipe for disaster, so...

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I've made a post about TLJ before in this very thread, but immediately after posting I thought "ugh I don't really want to participate in the argument I'm stirring up here" and so rather cowardly peaced out - for which I sincerely apologise and wish to make amends. Since TLJ's merits or demerits are back on the menu, and I'm watching Bob Fat and enjoying it so I've got a reason to check in here again, I want to repeat (and this time stay for the responses) that TLJ ultimately fails for me because it either refuses to commit or simply isn't sincere to begin with. Forget about the past, burn it? The Force is not about lifting rocks? Jedi teachings were wrong? Never mind all that, well done preserving those ancient Jedi writings and saving the day by literally lifting rocks! At least it doesn't end up directly contradicting itself regarding its critique of both sides' dependence on the military industrial complex, but as far as I can tell it has no practical relevance to the film either - it doesn't cause any character to act or even think differently. So whatever the intentions, TLJ just doesn't actually appear subversive to me at all.

I honestly do wish TLJ had stuck to its purported guns, because even if I'm not so sure Star Wars needs subversion in this particular manner, at least it would've meant something. As it is, the whole exercise feels a bit pointless to me. And I probably could've forgiven TLJ even for that, if it weren't for the Marvel-/Whedon-esque comedy that just feels out of place in Star Wars, the interminable space chase, the generally odd pacing and casino-planet interlude, its general insistence on one-upping TFA and compressing the major plot and action beats it derived from both ESB and RotJ into a single film (why oh why didn't the throne room scene at least end with Rey as not-Luke falling to the Dark Side), "it's salt", etc. To be fair, it's still a much better and more watchable film than TRoS, but I feel it's just too uneven, forced (ho ho) and unwilling to actually take any risks to warrant genuine praise.

Anyway! The Auralnauts videos are indeed really good and thinking of sensible and caring middle-management Vader's relation to Duke warms my heart every time. Well worth watching.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

teagone posted:

What's funny is that Rey is the one who says the force gives you the power to make things float because she doesn't know poo poo, and Luke appropriately explains the force isn't just about lifting rocks. So anyone getting mad at that bit is pretty lol.
Especially because, at the end of the film, Rey saves everyone by lifting a bunch of rocks. Shows what you know, Mr. Master Luke "Dirtfarmer" Skywalker Jedi !!

ninjahedgehog posted:

The old EU, for all its faults, largely stayed away from this iirc, but mostly because for a good stretch of its existence Lucas kept most of the pre-OT era off limits so he could make the prequels. Instead it did dumb poo poo like Luke running into the wampa again, but this time it wants revenge for its missing arm
The old EU didn't have any obsession with inanimate objects, specifically, but I think it was about equally desperate to connect every possible dot and give meaning to every possible background character. Some of that's fine, but I do agree that the focus should be more on telling new stories with new characters. And new paraphernalia.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

stev posted:

Officially throwing out the books, comics etc was necessary if Disney wanted any sort of established canon going forward, considering how much of it there was and how much of it contradicted both itself and more recent media.
More importantly: there was a not-inconsiderable amount of material in there penned by Kevin J. flippin' Anderson.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Arc Hammer posted:

Hey at least his wacky stuff is fun.
It's irredeemable shite, OP.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Doctor Spaceman posted:

The EU gets so much worse than his stuff.
Admittedly I stopped reading Star Wars books after picking up Vector Prime and then putting it down again maybe 100 pages in because I thought "what the gently caress is this knock-off Star Trek poo poo and why is everyone acting out of character", so possibly I'm a little naive in thinking Anderson's material was especially bad (it was really bad though (also I recall finding the Bounty Hunter trilogy to be extremely dumb)).

But anyway I'm looking forward to more orange Jedi woman on blue admiral man action. Even if the Rebels version of Thrawn just doesn't sound right to me after playing TIE Fighter so much back in the Stone Age.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Cross-Section posted:

Some fun new shots in this extended trailer from the Ahsoka panel:

https://streamable.com/7zn174

Thrawn’s face! Sabine fighting with Ezra’s(?) saber!
Oh God they hired Elon Musk to play Thrawn

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Cheesus posted:

I didn't know I needed Grogu in a IG shell, but here we are.
Only saw the episode today, but all I can say is yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and also big lol at that entire sequence

Anyway it just occurred to me that we're looking at the Star Wars equivalent of Krang in his robot suit. And that owns.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Actually SWTOR is a cool game where you can have a lady Ewok friend who fights alongside you and a mount that plays the Mos Eisley cantina music and be a Jedi Knight who shoots lightning while wearing Mandalorian armour and wielding a beskar spear.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Jehde posted:

We're inevitably going to get a "Dada"/"Mama" in Next Mando, depending how strong the Bo-Katan Mandalore Matriarch thread is played. A huge part of The Mandalorian is baby yoda, and the parenting and upbringing of this hugely popular cultural phenomenon. They'd be dumb not to capitalize on it. I look forward to the awkward edgy teen phase of Grogu.
Bo-Maman sounds good to me.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Ratjaculation posted:

Despite our usual hatred of bureaucracy, there is still a worrying lack of background checks in the Mandalorian adoption process
Don't make me tap the sign say the line

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Jehde posted:

It's Day of the Tentacle.

Lucasarts lives and will make Dark Forces 5.

Mostly true via Respawn Entertainment
DF5 would be good but what I really want is a proper new X-Wing/TIE Fighter game. Squadrons was okay, but as a single player space combat sim it just doesn't compare to the original games in my opinion.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Timby posted:

The problem is that single-player FPS space combat sims are pretty much a dead industry (Star Citizen scamming $600 million in funding since 2011 notwithstanding), and it's been a dead industry since FreeSpace 2's very expensive flop 20 years ago.
Yes I know, I have not been in a coma since 2000.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

If the X-Wing series have taught me anything, it's that A-Wings are overrated tin cans that are only good for annoying me if I'm flying a particularly sluggish Imperial craft like an Assault Gunboat. Quad laser supremacy.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Sash! posted:

R2 is Goose.
Nooooooo

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Senrab posted:

X-wing vs TIE Fighter was the only game in the series I had, so I didn't have any of the single player campaigns from its predecessors to compare it to. Still, I loved that poo poo and Squadrons was nice to have but didn't fully scratch the itch. I hope that style of game gets revisited in the Star Wars universe someday soon.
You kind of owe it to yourself to at least play TIE Fighter. It's as old as the hills, but the gameplay's still really solid, its storyline is still strong and it's also pretty unique for letting you play only as an Imperial. Or get X-Wing Alliance and then the TIE Fighter: Total Conversion, which I still haven't tried, but which at least looks the part and has lots of rave user reviews.

Edit: Okay so delving into TFTC a little more, it's not a 1-to-1 conversion but actually contains quite a lot of changes. If you're a purist, then, maybe stick to the original game (at least for your very first playthrough).

Edit 2: Right okay after reading up on this even more apparently there's TFTC Classic which actually is almost a 1-to-1 conversion and TFTC Reimagined, which has entirely redesigned missions and such and isn't quite complete yet. Oh and it's reliant on XWA Upgrade which now supports stuff like SSAO and dynamic shadows and even VR?? Can someone please also give Dark Forces 2 this treatment TIA

Sombrerotron fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 27, 2023

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

thrawn527 posted:

And TIE Fighter where I got the non-American flag portion of my avatar from.

Seriously, I loved that the game included Thrawn, a solely EU character, back in the day. That felt so cool.
It was a few years after TIE Fighter that I discovered the existence of the EU, by way of reading the Heir to the Empire trilogy. It was rad to find out Thrawn was not actually created for TIE Fighter and that he was even cooler there (to my impressionable teenage mind, at least) than in the game.

The downside of having played TIE Fighter so much is that Lars Mikkelsen's Thrawn just sounds wrong to me.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

unruly posted:

Okay, I'll admit that I haven't read all of the Thrawn stuff yet, so I am probably missing a big component of where things go off the rails.

There are, from what I'm reading, at least 4 to 5 books I haven't read through yet. I read four of them before getting side tracked on something else.

I've read:
  • Star Wars: Thrawn
  • Thrawn: Alliances
  • Thrawn: Treason
  • Thrawn: Ascendancy: Chaos Rising
I am also not someone who got into the whole EU, as Star Trek was more my jam early in life. Oh how the turntables on that.
When you mentoned you were re-reading the Thrawn trilogy, I thought you actually meant the original Heir to the Empire trilogy. Seems strange to start out with anything else!

For my part, the most recent EU books I've read are - in order of appearance (whether I actually read them in that order I don't remember) - Tatooine Ghost, Survivor's Quest (that is to say I have it, but I don't recall anything about it) and Outbound Flight; notice a pattern? And now I'm wondering whether after all these years it would be worth picking up some newer books, again about Thrawn.

Anyway the only Imperial defector who matters is Kyle Katarn. :hellyeah:

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Vintersorg posted:

Yeah, you gotta read the OG Zahn trilogy. It's so loving good and captures everything good about Star Wars.
Do this.

quote:

Maybe be like me and listen to Linken Park's Meteora when reading. :lol: I bought that album when I was visiting the UK and then found the Zahn trilogy in a used bookstore. The songs sorta lined up with the story. :3:
Do not do this.











P.S.

quote:

Even bullshit LUUKE
Considering it was Zahn it's sort of surprising he didn't go for Lu'uke or maybe just L'uke instead.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

site posted:

somewhat amusingly the really anime shorts were the low points this time out. but sith and all the stop motion shorts were great
e: the climax to screechers reach was well animated too
Very much agreed. At least The Pit did try for something different; Journey to the Dark Head struck me as being basically "let's put anime into Star Wars and call it a day". Didn't do anything for me. And both just look kind of dull and by-the-numbers to me art-wise, paling in comparison to the rest (The Bandits of Golak excepted, perhaps).

In any event I'd have to say Aau's Song is my favourite simply by virtue of being both incredibly gorgeous and super-charming, but Screecher's Reach is up there for me too. And of course Star Wars per Aardman is an absolute joy as well. Overall I found this second series a lot more compelling than the first and hope there'll be another involving yet more studios from all over the globe.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Ciao Wren posted:

First three episodes all seem to embrace the thesis that Luke should have struck down the Emperor when he had the chance. In different ways, but they all agree he should have done it.
I don't really see how you can come to that conclusion with respect to any of them.

Lola doesn't solve anything through being forced to kill her old Master - she explicitly says more will come and therefore decides to leave the planet. Meanwhile, her epiphany about the painting containing both light and dark comes before she strikes him down. If anything, it's that epiphany that actually enables her to defeat him. Luke has no such moment directly prior to his encounter with the Emperor.

Daal may get her wish of finally escaping her life in the workhouse, but in doing so she loses - or rather, abandons - her friends and above all she's doing it to become apprentice to a Sith. It serves as a warning, not encouragement; much like the final episode of season 1 did.

And finally, Koten and Tichina together do find the strength to defeat the Imperial presence on their world; but that in itself and the manner in which they accomplish it are a far cry from taking a weapon and striking down someone who appears and even claims to be defenceless.

And quite apart from any of this is the fact that Luke did try to strike down Palpatine when he had the chance, but Vader moved to stop him.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Ciao Wren posted:



Lola literally becomes a lord of the Sith. It may not have solved all of her problems but it solved the problem she bad at that moment. She's concerned about other challenges down the line, not with having become a Sith master in part because she still doesn't realize that.

As someone who got out of dodge and left people behind, I'm more sympathetic to Daal. She would have preferred not to leave her friends behind but the first rule of drowning is to save yourself. 3 drowning people is better than 4 drowning people. Now that's not something a true Jedi would do but I don't see it as being painted in a bad light either. It's just survival. Sith as liberation is a very Sith pitch.

Lastly, I don't see how anyone could look at someone using ultraviolence for revenge as being in-line with the Jedi ethos. It's another variation of the old playground argument that Luke should have sacrificed himself, embraced the dark side and killed the emperor. Even if Luke fell, the galaxy would be a better place. Which is a perfectly pragmatic position but it fails to understand how the macrocosm exists and is recapitulated by the microcosm. Again here you have Sith as liberation.

As above, so below. Literally on the Death Star.

It seems like a real stretch to me to interpret any of this as suggestive that Luke was in fact right to give in to Palpatine's goading. Also, I really do not agree with the assessment that In the Stars is about revenge, rather than survival and fighting a tyrannical occupying force that's committed wholescale genocide and is destroying the ecosystem.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Ciao Wren posted:

Luke wasn't right to give in, that's the point. That's why his rejection is so important. Luke was (understandably) tempted by the dark side and he chose to reject it thereby remaining on the path. How is destroying a base and killing everyone inside it different from slicing Palpatine in half with his laser sword?
What I mean is that I do not see how, except through a very forced reading, you can reasonably infer that these episodes - in your own words - "embrace the thesis that Luke should have struck down the Emperor when he had the chance".

I'm not sure how to answer your question, because it seems self-evident to me destroying (just before being killed by the hostile occupying force yourself) an illegitimate military presence on your territory is something entirely different from murdering an unarmed individual, even if he happens to be the leader of said hostile force. Incidentally, if you're arguing that there is in fact no relevant difference and that both are wrong, it seems to me that implies the Rebels blowing up both Death Stars was wrong as well. Do you agree with that? If not, why were they right to do so?

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I'm fine with them reviving the old EU as long as everyone's agreed that the NJO never happened and is not an interesting idea to try out.

EDIT: Oh and Kevin J. Anderson, of course, Shall Not Be Acknowledged.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Dexo posted:

I will accept a Kyle Katarn vehicle tho.
:hmmyes:

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I liked DF2's FMV. :unsmith:

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Sentinel Red posted:

Give me Dash Rendar and Guri loving
Man every now and then I remember that book and then also promptly remember how horny it was

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

I visit my mum every week to help her with various practical things and keep her company, since chronic illness severely limits the things she can do and my dad's no longer among us. So often once the various chores and administrative duties are done, we turn to Netflix or Disney+ and just hang around in front of the TV for a while.

Largely as a result of that, in recent years - helped greatly by The Mandalorian - she's really got into Star Wars. And with Ahsoka coming out this summer, I'm currently watching TCW with her so she'll know about Ahsoka's backstory and hopefully we'll have time enough to go through at least some Rebels episodes as well. In any event, she's enjoying the series a lot and has very much taken to Ahsoka already, so I'm just happy we'll get to watch some new stuff we're both excited about together come August. :unsmith:

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

While I'm glad single player Star Wars games seem to be en vogue again, I wish that instead of another open world third-person collect-'em-up we'd get a proper RPG or TIE Fighter 2 or Star Wars: Rebellion: Revampeance or Total Star War: Mandalorians or

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Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Larryb posted:

Come to think of it, have we ever had any Star Wars media such as comics and the like where someone from the Empire/Sith/other villains was the central protagonist (all I can think of is an episode or two from Clone Wars focusing on Maul and maybe Book of Boba Fett though he was just an unaffiliated bounty hunter, Jango had his own video game as well)?
TIE Fighter.

I suppose there's also the single player campaign of Battlefront 2 (new version) and even Force Commander, but in both cases you end up defecting (Coward! Traitor!!).

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