The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Gamergate is basically some twitter drama that happened in 2014, and some people still want to post about that.

Normal D&D rules apply. In addition:

Don't

Use this thread to plan, or talk about, the wicked sick burns you make on twitter.
Descend into a slapfight, this isn't the place to air your forums grudges.
Troll this thread.

Rulebreaking will be dealt with harshly. I don't know anything about #Gamergate, and don't really want to find out more. And please remember that video games aren't very important in the greater scheme of things, when you really think about it.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2015 13:36

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 22:31

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

How come the gamer gate is mad about ethnic minority representation in games as well?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 04:28

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Al Cowens posted:

I don't know who any of those people are. But four of the posts on the front page of http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ are about race, and another is about the "SJWs".

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 04:37

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

LostRook posted:

So talking about race is racist?

You think "PC Master Race" is actually about racism?

It's curious that an anti-feminist group also talks disparagingly about race issues, yeah. "PC Master Race" is obviously a reference to white supremacist movements � I don't think it is itself racist, but it's pretty indicative of the immature, 2edgy4u nature of people who think video games is the greatest civil rights issue of our time.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 04:47

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Unfunny Poster posted:

I think the guy in the top left was head judge for some some indie game prize at Indie Game Festival and also someone Zoe Quinn allegedly hooked up with.

Did Zoe Quinn win the indie game prize?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 04:48

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

LostRook posted:

Apple store removed all American Civil War games. Without exception.

And what does that have to do with ethics in games journalism?

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 05:44

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

LostRook posted:

That's the oppositions mocking definition of gamergate, not a defined limit.

A private company deciding to do something isn't censorship.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 05:57

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Wulfolme posted:

Yes, it is. The government doesn't have a monopoly on whether or not free speech is respected. People calling for something representative of an idea they don't like to be removed, and then that thing being removed because of that call, is censorship.

Private companies are allowed to make decisions based on consumer feedback. That isn't a freedom of speech issue.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 06:04

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Wulfolme posted:

If Youtube removed every video portraying a conservative presidential candidate in a positive light or promoting conservative candidates for state legislatures in August of 2016 because of tremendous negative feedback from a majority of their users, you wouldn't consider that a free speech issue. Yes or no?

Apple's app store is too big to pretend that it doesn't have a massive effect on what people are exposed to. Apple tells millions of people what is acceptable for them to see with the decisions they make about what to host on the App Store. If that's not the same as a newspaper or cable news channel pushing an agenda and ignoring everything that contradicts it, I don't believe you could provide a convincing explanation for what is.

stop making people defend stupid poo poo we don't loving enjoy it

Youtube already removes, or age restricts, inappropriate material. It's not a free speech issue because youtube (a)isn't the only video host in the world and (b)is a private company with its own TOS. And anyway, there's a difference between removing all material by politicians from one party in a two-party state and the (heavy-handed) removal of apps that use a symbol of white supremacy.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 06:20

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Al Cowens posted:

Depression Quest is not a game. Zoe Quinn (aka Chelsea van Valkenburg) is not a game developer.

Actually it is, and she is.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 07:23

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

Well that's one way to ensure human extinction.

What do you even think feminism is

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 10:12

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

Just being cute about birth replacement rates/ideology.

That's not really an answer. What is your definition of feminism?

Al Cowens posted:

Have a link dump

Then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottsboro_boys
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till
http://i.imgur.com/YKvMrUO.jpg

Now:
http://www.furiousandbrave.com/2013/08/skewaww.html
http://gothamist.com/2015/05/28/manspreading_crackdown.php
http://www.ebony.com/news-views/i-guess-you-really-aint-sht-questlove-303/2#axzz3eFGA4FCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yuFy_qjolU
https://youtu.be/JHzGiGUj5SU?t=98
It's pretty hard for me to not see any parallels.

Future:
http://i.imgur.com/YKvMrUO.jpg

Sabel, you honestly seem to be much less mentally well than you were before gamergate happened.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 10:25

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

Equality between the sexes. As a movement their is obviously alot more going on behind the scenes that give off alot of social marxist vibes, but i only know about that stuff in passing.

Why do you think there's a behind the scenes conspiracy? And what's social marxism? You seem to be using your own definitions and treating them like they're commonplace.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 10:34

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

I only say behind the scenes because I do not study it and it's all very convoluted, theoretical ideas of achieving equality instead of cold, simple equality of opportunities. Social Marxism in the sense that its bassed on an oppressor/oppressed ideological framework.

I don't understand how you can acknowledge a current lack of equality of opportunities and then think there's something wrong with using a framework based on dynamics of power.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 10:50

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

afeelgoodpoop posted:

I'm not a very learned person and I've never been to college so most of the stuff I learn about feminism either comes from random blurbs or things like gamergate. Also I'm lazy.

Do you think your understanding is warped at all by reading only anti-feminist explanations of feminism? (I'm assuming here that most of those random blurbs had an anti-feminist perspective as well)

# ¿ Jun 27, 2015 11:12

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Who exactly (i.e. which groups) are part of the conspiracy to make games not fun? Blaming websites with millions of users like tumblr and twitter is obviously absurd. This whole 'anti-' boogeyman is really strange to me.

VJeff posted:

Is this appropriate fodder for this thread now or do I have to make it be about Fuckin' Gamers somehow?

Why would a sports tweet be relevant to gamergate?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 01:29

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Brannock posted:

He's drawing a parallel between people not knowing that the athlete's last name is Gay (because they don't know anything about track & field and are just kneejerking) and calling for More Respectfulness, and, I assume, anti-GG people calling for objectionable and problematic content such as hyperviolence in DOOM 4 to be revoked.

Well-meaning but embarrassingly uninformed people are nothing new, and imo it speaks of obsessiveness to contextualise everything through gamergate

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 01:54

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Bonesnap posted:

"Black people don't have to be your audience, black people are over"

But it's not referring to all black people, just the bad ones

I agree, she probably will continue to fake threats against herself.

'Gamer' is a manufactured identity. And when did Sarkeesian fake death threats?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 02:57

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Bonesnap posted:

"Christian" and "Buddhist" are manufactured identities. If I said "Christians are over", most Christians wouldn't assume "oh, he's just talking about the bad ones"

And Anita linked tweets saying simply "I disagree with you" and "This Tweet is a death threat" in her big collage of "death threats"(tweets). I'll be generous and say it's probably actually Josh McinJosh doing it, she seems a lot smarter than that.

Religion has a basis in shared cultural, philosophical & ideological values. 'Gamer culture' is, most charitably, a group of fan clubs for consumer products. It's weird that you are viscerally offended by a clickbaity title, but then refuse to read the subhead let alone the entire article.

Link to the big collage of death threats that has things that aren't death threats? I tried to google but got a bunch of truther-style forensics about timestamps.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 03:11

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Totalizator posted:

Every argument you have made in this thread is based on the premise people who disagree with you are idiots acting upon their biases while you're clearly the only unbiased and smartest person in the room. None of your claims are ever backed up and you always skim through links other people post just enough to make some half-assed generalistic attempt to make them look retarded You have twice as many posts in this thread as the next guy but claim to not care about the topic. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that everyone who wants to have a honest discussion about this topic in this thread should put you on ignore which I am doing right now.

Did you read the articles?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 03:13

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

I'm just wondering if this is the first time people have encountered cultural criticism of the media they enjoy? From what I can tell Sarkeesian's videos are feminism 101 stuff, so the vitriol aimed at her seems over the top (and misguided, if the movement is about games journalism or censorship or whatever). None of this is new!

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 03:39

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

For some reason I suspect that Sarkeesian would have gotten the exact same response if her videos were 1080p and she sent out FemFreq tote bags or whatever. The only reason she got so overfunded is because she suffered harassment in the first place.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 04:42

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Removal of personal information, in line with a private website's TOS, isn't censorship.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 04:48

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Yeah, and had it just been that there'd have been no mass internet mob coming from it. The mob was created by the knee jerk zero tolerance policy to any gamergate discussion claiming that all gamergate discussion was bad, as opposed to just banning the assholes who were actually breaking the TOS.

All gamergate discussion is bad. You admit upfront that your movement is based on a no gently caress you dad reaction, and call it a mob, but still feel the need to defend it by attacking women in games. Why?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 04:58

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Well I am not attacking women, and a good portion of gamergate isn't either. And I don't think criticizing feminism is in of itself an attack on women.

Now you're right, a portion of gamergate has been infiltrated by misogynist assholes... however virtually every discussion and protest of anything in human history gets infiltrated by assholes when it reaches a certain size. I imagine people that support the environmentalist movement are not defined by idiot eco-terrorists blowing up gas pipelines, just as the struggle of the Chechen people isn't represented by the Boston Bombers.

Then why do Sarkeesian, Quinn, and Wu have every detail of their lives pored over? The gamergate was started by misogynist assholes. If it was about ethics in video game journalism then Sarkeesian in particular would be irrelevant. Your movement is reactionary. It doesn't have any firm objectives, it's just lashing out.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 05:18

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Speculation doesn't equal conspiracy, I pointed out there was speculation and gave an example, there is nothing weird about this, speculating is natural. Few people were saying that it was a conspiracy, and even I have only suspected it as one possible option.

What's weird is you keep trying to press this point.

You've repeatedly insinuated that you think there is collusion amongst gaming journalists. The gamergate movement emerged from that same conspiracy theory.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 06:14

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Are there any bad indie games made by men that have been accused of belonging to this conspiracy?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 06:21

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

I have insinuated and said that there is reason to suspect collusion amongst game journalists and there's enough evidence for it that it deserves investigation. There also is enough evidence to show that a portion of game journalists are colluding with each other and the industry and this is wrong, however to the extent that this is in the industry is in question.

Now I will admit to a certain extent gamergate emerged from that conspiracy theory, at the same time I'd say that there's a legitimate point to it. I would say that a conspiracy in the sense that "there is a feminist conspiracy to censor the internet" is far fetched. However an elitist cliche that's emerged from an inbred industry isn't so far fetched.

Is that evidence any deeper than games that aren't to your taste getting well-reviewed? How come so many people in gamergate (including some people in this very thread) do think that a push for greater minority representation in games will lead to gaming being destroyed or something? And I don't know what an elitist cliche is.

Shadoer posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Gone Home was made by men.

okay

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 06:36

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

The Droid posted:

The exposure of the gamejournopros mailing list that came about after someone on it was fed up with other members of the list pressuring people into silencing discussion on their own sites was pretty much this, though it wasn't on a large scale like people thought it was.

Wait, the conspiracy was to shut down discussion on gamergate? Or collusion to rate these indie games well? I'm confused, because I thought we were talking about the latter.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 06:38

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

To be perfectly honest, no. It's just speculation still, and as I have said something worse investigating.

Okay. Do you see how believing a conspiracy theory without any real evidence might make you seem like a conspiracist?

Shadoer posted:

A fair bet would be that no one would have a problem with minorities being represented in games and that would be a positive. Giving them an unfair advantage in reviews and penalizing games that don't would be bad however. Hence the whole censorship debate.

I'm pretty sure all game reviewers go by their own subjective measures. If social justice issues affect their enjoyment of a game then it's their prerogative to take them into account. People who have similar values will listen to their reviews, and people who don't will go elsewhere.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 06:57

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

The Droid posted:

The exposure revealed the former (and also explained why those samey "gamers are dead" articles all came out around the same time) and led many people to assume the latter was also the case.

Seems like a pretty big leap to me. I don't see anything wrong with reviewers coming together to take a stand against online harassment and the toxic elements of gaming culture. If anything it's more likely that the latter influenced the former; you're naturally going to want to defend something that you like.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 07:03

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Again with Gone Home it was a suspicion. And yeah as you can suspect a bunch of things with statistics, Robert McNamara's career and the entire Freakanomic Series are filled with good examples of it.

Just as Gone Home was given a perfect 10/10 by Polygon's Patricia Hernandez. At the time, only 2 other games had ever gotten that score on Polygon. It then turned out Patricia and the dev for Gone Home had previously been rommmates.

So yeah suspicions of something nefarious isn't completely out there.

A reviewer doing their old buddy a favour might be unethical, likewise if Quinn gained some advantage by sleeping with a game journalist (something there's no evidence of, as far as I can tell?). But those two discrete events so obviously can't be replicated industry-wide in a calculated manner that they do the opposite to supporting a theory of widespread collusion, to me.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 10:21

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Sandweed posted:

Patricia Hernandez didn't review Gone Home for Polygon and reviewers on polygon don't set the scores on their own reviews. But who cares, keep the narrative going.

Wow, that really seems like something that people who are into #gamergate should know.

http://kotaku.com/gone-home-the-kotaku-review-1118218265
http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4620172/gone-home-review-if-these-walls-could-talk

# ¿ Jun 28, 2015 10:39

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Please don't talk about movies in this thread.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 02:09

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

So why is Sarkeesian even part of this gamergate thing? She's a critic who, like everybody who opposes her, has suggestions for how video games should be (i.e. in terms of content, features, etc.).

Is it just a matter of timing? The overreactions to both her and Quinn happened around the same time as far as I can tell (August 2014); did she get swept along for the ride? How much crossover is there between the ethics in games journalism crowd and the SJWs telling us what to do crowd?

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 03:05

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Bholder posted:

Ok I'm getting tired of this.

Gamergate is beyond that one girl loving some other dude, that's not their main point at all. It is beyond just "ethics in journalism" or whatever.

Gamergate in the vaguest sense is an opposition of "SJWs" or "third wave feminists" or the call-out culture or Tumblrinas or whatever you want to call them. They are getting louder and louder and they may or may not already effected things outside of the internet, so Gamergate is the closest to an unified opposition to out-shout them.

Sarkesian is disliked because she's underpreforming in her video production, said videos are poo poo and her opinions outside are questionable at best. She is also focusing on video games which is the main common element behind Gamergate.

Okay, you know that your understanding of gamergate is different to other gamergaters', right? Including some in this very thread? For you, it's an explicitly reactionary response to people whose values are counter to yours. It wouldn't matter to you if Sarkeesian released videos every week with perfect white balance and uncrushed blacks, because fundamentally you feel personally threatened when somebody criticises the media you enjoy, or is the 'wrong type' of game consumer.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 03:51

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Is it?

He basically say

- It's beyond one girl or ethics in game journalism, so it's basically a large tent protest like others including myself have said.
- He's talked about opposition to SJW call out culture and tactics, which others in the thread and myself have expressed as well.
- He has said that Sarkesian is disliked because her video's are poorly produced and opinions are questionable, which others in the thread and myself have expressed.

Yet somehow it still has to be a reactionary response, and you have to insist that it has to be because people are criticizing the media we enjoy or are the "wrong type" of game consumer., Like this is a "False cause fallacy", people have listed several reasons for gamergate to exist which are reasonable and are backed up by evidence, and you insist that the real case has to be because we don't want an outgroup like girls in our games. Even though there's a few women who are on the side of gamergate and one of the leading figures is a flamboyantly gay man.

If gamergate is in opposition to a movement supporting social liberalisation in games then it is by definition reactionary. If not, what are the reasonable reasons for the creation of gamergate? The same attitudes existed in parts of gamer culture (fake girl gamers!) before the actor Adam Baldwin invented a hashtag.

Shadoer posted:

Yeah and lots of causes started from stupid things. Arguably the environmentalist movement was started by a white con artist pretending to be native american, and hunters who were afraid their kids wouldn't have anything to shoot. So what?

Like that's a genetic fallacy, where you judge something from where it came from as opposed to it's merits.

You really ought to back up your claims with links � I can't find any evidence of this con artist pioneer. These early conservationists share the same goal with contemporary ones don't they? Likewise gamergate was started by people who dug up personal information on the people they disagree with, or argued about irrelevant material (the videos I don't like are infrequent! the stretch goals of the kickstarter I didn't support weren't met!) instead of arguing their points. How is that different from what is happening now, all of ten months on?

Also, pointing to fallacies is a bad tactic if you're trying to change hearts and minds.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 04:27

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Craptacular! posted:

The question is whether the movement is "supporting social liberalisation" or shaming the creators of this stuff into supporting it.

I think this distinction is fairly irrelevant when opposition to it manifests itself in the misogynistic way it has. Like yeah, misguided witch hunts happen. Dumb but well-intentioned people sometimes miss the point. That doesn't invalidate social justice.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 04:52

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Shadoer posted:

Except

1. You can't moderate a hashtag and there's nothing preventing the hatemob circlejerk from just migrating.,

2. Gamergate is a fairly fitting name and is fairly gender neutral.

3. By a lot of people's claims here (which are fallacy) gamergate hashtag will be still seen as misogynistic as the flashpoint was the Zoepost. Logically this would apply to any succeeding hastag.

So really, I don't think changing names would have done the "good people" any favors.

The purpose of creating a new hashtag to support games journalism reform or whatever is to distance that movement from the anti-SJW harassment one.

Shadoer posted:

Also Lol at ExclamationMarx trying to claim that we think Gamergate is Lenin in the DnDChat thread. Cause when you realize you're spouting off fallacy, it's better to go to another thread and weakly mock it to hide your salty tears

Shadoer posted:

Also no, you don't seem to understand an Argument from fallacy. You are trying to disprove my claims by utilizing a fallacy, my claims are not based in a fallacy. At the same time the argument from fallacy only applies if you've mixed in argument and have a fallacy in there, and I try to use the fallacy to disprove the entire argument. You are not providing evidence or argument to back up the claim outside of fallacy.

You seem to have a really hard time understanding English dude.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 05:42

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 22:31

exmarx: Feb 18, 2012; The experience over the years
of nothing getting better
only worse.

Like, even if the 'ethics in gaming journalism' stuff was just a planned smokescreen, I thought it was still about money/special favours being given in exchange for positive reviews. But nope, apparently even that is about creeping SJW influence.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2015 05:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Gamergate: Girls have cooties and they are infecting Mega Man!

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