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If that's who I think it is, that's a really cool detail! I was all set to rave about this episode already, because the writing is so good. That takes it to the next level. Nice catch!
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Sep 7, 2017 01:13
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I'm watching the original series episode "Court Martial" on BBCA, and I'm surprised at how differently I view this episode as an adult. I'm really unimpressed with Cogley's legal acumen after watching shows like JAG and Law and Order; he spends most of Kirk's trial not calling any witnesses or rebutting the testimony of witnesses for the prosecution. In the end, he makes a single grandstanding speech about man vs machine and ultimately ends up winning the case for Kirk, despite Fred Thompsoning his way through the trial. I agree with the substance of what Cogley was saying, but he was a fairly inept lawyer. If "Measure of a Man" is a remake of this episode, then in addition to being a much better episode in general, it's a much better and more accurate legal drama.
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Sep 23, 2017 18:55
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I was going to say Perry Mason. You beat me to it. The unrealistic legal wrangling in that episode is distracting. I don't think it's necessarily a bad episode, but Cogley is definitely no Matlock or Jack McCoy.
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Sep 23, 2017 20:59
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I don't know what to think about Discovery. Intellectually, there are things I'm not completely happy about, but I'm mostly neutral on the series itself. But emotionally, I've come to associate Discovery so much with annoying fans with whom I've argued about it (no one in this thread or on SA) that I'm almost completely turned off. Star Trek as a franchise, though, probably needs a win in order to continue. I wish Discovery well, but I probably won't be watching, and I definitely won't be paying for All Access.
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Sep 24, 2017 23:35
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I didn't watch the premiere, but one thing I find interesting (and ominous): I was monitoring the reactions to Discovery on /r/startrek. That sub has been arguing almost nonstop for months about Discovery, with the majority generally feeling positive and excited about the show. Most of the were even willing to swallow All Access. But reading their Discovery megathread, most of the comments range from "meh" to actively being pissed off. If you lose fans as dedicated as Trekkie Reddit, that's...something. Now, of course, fans in 1987 may have reacted in much the same way to "Encounter at Farpoint". But I think that TNG had a lot less to lose than Discovery does.
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Sep 25, 2017 03:39
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TNG had at least one thing going for it at its premiere: by setting the series one hundred years after the original, it avoided the anachronism problems that Discovery has been running into since the word go. TNG was able to build on the universe TOS created, especially after The Undiscovered Country. Discovery looks like it's just inventing new stuff whole cloth, which can work, but the Klingon redesign and things like that are going to alienate longtime fans. That plus having to pay CBS six bucks a month for ten minutes of Trek and eight of commercials is going to turn a lot of people off.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:09
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I actually disagree about "A Private Little War". What Kirk did in that case may or may not have been the Right Thing To Do, but I admire the fact that he saw enough nuance in the situation that he followed the spirit of the Prime Directive if not the letter of the law. Too often in TNG, they were so rigid in following the letter of the law that they violated its spirit . A good example of that is "Homeward". Though at the same time, I agree that the arguments in favor of giving Tyree's people flintlocks were nearly identical to the arguments in favor of intervening in Vietnam.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:31
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McSpanky posted:Even after having their minds wiped and being fed false information about an urgent war that needs to be won at all costs, they use both reason and instinct to realize that the situation is wrong and slaughtering the helpless isn't the right choice, no matter how dire the situation seems on the surface. That, and the fact that even with their memories wiped, they seem to subconsciously fall back to their training: Picard is sitting at navigation, but he still wonders aloud about the wisdom of doing something, like a good captain (I can't remember details; it's been a while since I've seen the episode). Beverly doesn't remember that she's CMO, but she's still able to operate medical equipment to help someone sitting in sickbay. Even if the ending is somewhat predictable, I've always thought that was a cool aspect of this episode.
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Sep 27, 2017 04:34
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You're describing one of the reasons why I'm so disgusted by many Reddit Trek fans, and why I much prefer talking Trek with you guys: they're so determined to like Discovery, because it's the first Star Trek on TV in over a decade, that they're swallowing everything the show does - no matter how dumb it is - and actively down voting people who express anything less than adoration for the show. /r/startrek is becoming (or has become) toxic. Discovery is giving me a newfound respect for DS9. I've resented it somewhat, because I think that its popularity sometimes comes at the expense of older series, like the original. But DS9 is Star Trek doing dark right: Sisko and his crew bend Starfleet Values in order to fight against the Dominion and the Maquis. Sometimes they go too far, but reluctantly. "In The Pale Moonlight" is a great example of that. Discovery looks like it's doing dark and gritty in an effort to be more in the vein of shows like BSG. I love BSG, but I don't want Star Trek to be BSG.
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Sep 27, 2017 17:25
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vermin posted:
That's the origin of the 'Kirk beds green alien women' myth: an episode that didn't even feature Kirk that was arguably written before his character was even invented. Oh! You all must be watching "The Menagerie". Took me a moment to figure out what you were talking about. Decent episode, but yeah...they obviously spaced out the breaks in Talosian footage to remind us that this was Kirk-era Star Trek.
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Sep 28, 2017 17:40
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It's not Spock's Brain; that episode is legitimately hilarious. I've read that the script was written as a joke, and I can believe it after watching the episode. Threshold, Code of Honor and The Alternative Factor (which doesn't make any drat sense at all) are three of the leading contenders, in my opinion.
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Sep 29, 2017 06:05
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I'm late, but the Black Alert thing reminds me of this bit from Red Dwarf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81W8tG3wH_4
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Oct 2, 2017 16:50
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vermin posted:Kirk would take an axe to the holodeck and in the pile of rubble he'd give a speech about how man is a slave and not a god to his own delusions and the power of the heart being greater than the cowardice of the mind, or something. Which is one reason why I love TOS so much. It wasn't optimistic about the future, but not utopian. Episodes never shied away from depicting characters as going into situations with the wrong mindset (like Kirk warmongering after the Cestus III attack) and changing their mind after more facts became known.
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Oct 2, 2017 22:32
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The Practical Joker. My personal head canon is that they didn't have holodeck technology until TNG, although I pretty much consider TAS canon.
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Oct 2, 2017 22:34
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TOS often is good, but it gets a bad rap that's probably partially deserved.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:16
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skasion posted:TOS has a wider range of quality than the other shows do. It gives people whiplash to go from a City on the Edge or a Balance of Terror to an Alternative Factor, or a Doomsday Machine to a Wolf in the Fold, or even an All Our Yesterdays to a Turnabout Intruder. The other Trek shows tend to be more consistent, whether good or bad (with a couple exceptions like the first couple seasons of TNG and the first season of DS9, which both get slammed at least as often as TOS). True. Also, most of season three, with the exception of a few episodes like Spectre of the Gun and All Our Yesterdays, are either disappointing or awful. I don't know of any other Star Trek show where that was true. First season TNG gets a lot of (well deserved) crap, but I think even it's better than season three TOS, and I'm a huge TOS fan.
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Oct 7, 2017 15:39
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Moriatti posted:Speaking of! What are some other really good ones I should watch? Balance of Terror, Spectre of the Gun and The City on the Edge of Forever were all in the top picks so I'm trying to figure out where to go from after this. Mirror, Mirror and Amok Time are two good early season two episodes. Another good one that doesn't often get mentioned is The Ultimate Computer. It summarizes my feelings about autonomous driving and other technology like that. All Our Yesterdays and The Spectre of the Gun are two good season three ones. I would make a strong case for Spock's Brain because I personally think it's hilarious. But it's your choice on that one, since most people seem to hate it. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Oct 7, 2017 |
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Oct 7, 2017 18:10
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skasion posted:Enterprise Incident is fun to watch just for Spock and the commander turning up the heat, and it has a nice soundtrack and is generally better than the average third season ep by virtue of moving along at a decent clip and not being dreadfully boring. But still I hesitate to recommend it because the plot is complete nonsense. Their grand plan to steal a Romulan cloaking device for Starfleet was to 1) have a starship captain violate the border, 2) get his ship captured, 3) fake his death, 4) have his first officer seduce the Romulan commander as part of a double cross, 5) surgically convert the captain into a Romulan so he could 6) walk right onto the ship and steal the cloaking device, followed by 7) installing the cloaking device on their own ship so they could sneak out right under the Romulans' noses? This plot is so complicated and could fail so many different ways it only holds together by its own momentum. You definitely have a point; a lot of the plot is a series of lucky breaks and coincidences. But I think that adds to the fun, because it's so unpredictable! I think the key to enjoying the episode is to realize that they were probably improvising a lot of stuff on the spot. I think they went into it with the intention to make Kirk look like he was going crazy, and for Spock to pretend to turn against him. I'm not sure they knew about the female Romulan commander beforehand.
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Oct 8, 2017 02:24
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I don't hate Voyager, but I don't like it either. I just find it dull. It's like all the worst aspects of TNG combined with a failure to live up to a strong premise. Given a choice between the BBCA Voyager marathon on Monday nights and the TOS marathon on Friday, there's no contest; TOS episodes may vary in quality, but I don't think anyone could call it boring or uninteresting. It's colorful and hopeful, with strong characters who aren't just goody two-shoes Federation types. Voyager isn't (for the most part).
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Oct 8, 2017 17:12
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Man...the more I hear about Discovery, the less inclined I am to give it a try. I was already turned off by the CBS All Access stuff; I don't have the money to pay for an exploitative monthly streaming service for that one show. But now someone said something about (I'll spoil it for the benefit of those who are watching it) magic mushrooms (?) powering the ship, a rotating saucer section, poor Klingon actors, and a dickish crew. Ugh. No thanks. Fans on Reddit would tell you that some fans have decided that they're not going to like Discovery no matter what. They may actually have a point, but the thing is that many fans on Reddit have probably decided to like Discovery no matter what stupid bullshit it comes up with.
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Oct 9, 2017 22:26
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evilmiera posted:Most starships with phasers could destroy continents back in TOS. Not immediately maybe, but certainly given a little time. Which is why most superweapons bore me in Star Trek, since they could just as easily be replaced with a bunch of high yield torpedoes. Another interesting difference between TOS and TNG is that the original Enterprise could take a lot of abuse. In A Taste of Armageddon, the Enterprise was being bombarded by Eminiar VII's death rays and was barely affected by it. In TNG, the Enterprise-D would lose its shields after taking a couple of hits from an enemy ship. I think Voyager was even worse for that than TNG.
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Oct 10, 2017 16:12
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I actually like Time's Arrow better than Descent. Even though the latter resolves the Lore arc, the "evil Data" thing is pretty dumb.
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Oct 11, 2017 04:39
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Kibayasu posted:Very, very little of Star Trek actually is people doing the morally right thing though, the majority of it is just Adventures in Space with Space Things. For every Drumhead or I, Borg I bet you could find a Pale Moonlight or Journey's End. The first two seasons of TNG are where most of the "morally right" endings happen and it turns out that a old man with a failing mind doesn't have the best grasp on what is morally right because those are some really, really bad episodes. You're not wrong. The problem with Discovery seems to be that most of the time, you could count on Kirk, Picard and Sisko to do the right thing. They occasionally did things wrong, but we knew that at heart, they were moral people who didn't always do moral things.
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Oct 12, 2017 21:04
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After The War posted:
Out of character? I thought Bones' line was perfectly aligned with his humanism.
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Oct 14, 2017 18:15
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kaworu posted:Hm. You know, that I have seen every TOS episode at least 3 times (embarrassingly enough) due to Star Trek's status as my "comfort television" when I need to put on something comforting predictable and immersing in terms of both its setting and soundtrack, so yeah I just cycle through TOS/TNG/DS9 as needed and it's very convenient they're both so easily accessible on both Amazon and Netflix. You missed the point of that episode. Completely. Kirk wasn't really supposed to be the "good guy" in that episode. You're supposed to question his motives and zeal for revenge against the Gorn. That's why the Metrons put him in that situation in the first place: to demonstrate to him that the Gorn captain was a living being, and not just an enemy to be killed, and that the Gorn may have had a reason for attacking Cestus III. It drives me nuts when people take this episode out of context and go on and on about Kirk being dictatorial when the entire episode was an attempt to show Kirk that he had crossed the line. The fact that Kirk didn't kill the Gorn captain in the end was supposed to demonstrate that he had learned his lesson.
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Oct 31, 2017 16:14
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<-- that is literally his face in the scene.
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kaworu posted:You may have missed *my* essential point, which is that Kirk's "redemption" at the end winds up being reset to status quo - like much other seeming character development. But there again: in Requiem For Methuselah (if I'm remembering correctly; it's been a while since I've seen it) they were cozying up to Flint in order to get the meds they needed. Flint was loath to help them and needed time to synthesize the drugs, so it's not like they were there for pleasure. I agree with you that Kirk falling so hard for (spoiler just in case) an android that Spock has to make him forget is pretty ridiculous. I appreciate the character moment they were trying to go for there, but Edith Keeler had a much more impact on Kirk than whatshername in Requiem. One of the things I really like about TOS was how real the characters seemed. TNG depicted its characters so squeaky clean and conflict free that they were sometimes like caricatures. Kirk was a complex man. He was a man of peace, but he also had a tendency to jump the gun before he had all the facts (this happened both in Arena and Errand of Mercy, and in both episodes, Kirk was not depicted as the one in the right). In many ways, he was a disciplined, "by the book" type, but he wasn't afraid to bend his orders when the situation called for it. The fact that the TOS characters (for the most part) were so complex and non-utopian is part of what makes it such a great show.
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Oct 31, 2017 19:06
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Sir Lemming posted:Tapestry definitely has the TOS-est moral of any TNG episode. But it is certainly handled much better than that episode where Good Kirk is unable to command the ship until he gets Rapey Kirk back. The Enemy Within, and the point wasn't that 'evil' Kirk was "rapey". He was pure id that was unrestrained by the ego and superego of 'good' Kirk. To be a complete person and an effective commander, Kirk needed all those savory and unsavory aspects of his personality.
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Nov 5, 2017 22:13
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Gaz-L posted:Which could've been shown without that scene where he totally tries to rape Rand. That's fair. I think some fans (not talking about anyone here) get so focused on that scene that they miss the larger point about human nature. It's also really strange for Spock to be joking about it at the end of the episode. I love TOS, but I have no idea what they were thinking there.
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Nov 6, 2017 01:19
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thexerox123 posted:Why are people acting like TOS and TNG didn't have corrupt members of Starfleet? True. I think the difference with DS9 is a matter of balance. TOS and TNG both had corrupt admirals and power hungry people, but that was balanced out with optimism about humanity overcoming its ills and becoming more morally evolved. In fairness, TNG overdid it and went too far in the direction of 24th century Earth being utopia. DS9 comes along and starts questions Federation ideals, which is great. But it overemphasized the "humans are inherently bad" angle (which I think was a reaction against the utopianism of TNG) that it went too far in the gritty direction. That's why I have such mixed feelings about that series. I personally would have liked to have seen a better balance between realism about human nature and optimism, like we generally saw in TOS.
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Nov 10, 2017 18:05
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I watched the final episode of Continues earlier tonight. It was great and I enjoyed the little nods to Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I wish they had developed Continues into an ongoing series (dunno if this would have been possible or feasible) instead of doing Discovery; I really liked this series. My one minor nitpick is that I've always had mixed feelings about the original Enterprise having the ability to detach the saucer section. My personal head canon is that this was a new feature in Galaxy-class starships - especially since this is the only time in the TOS timeframe that something like this was ever done (at least as far as we know). But this isn't a big deal. The episode was very well done and was finally a proper send-off for TOS (almost fifty years after the fact).
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Nov 15, 2017 06:46
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Thanks for the background on saucer separation. I didn't realize it was in Jeffries' original plans. I liked those scenes; they were well done, and they added continuity between TOS and TNG, since Picard ordered a saucer separation in Encounter At Farpoint.
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Nov 16, 2017 01:24
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Arglebargle III posted:Are you spoiling 50 year old production notes? I'm spoiling details related to Continues' final episode, for the benefit of people who might want to watch.
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Nov 16, 2017 02:31
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Nah...TOS is classic pepperoni. TNG is classic pepperoni with added mushrooms, green peppers, etc. Voyager is Sbarro.
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Dec 4, 2017 18:30
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I wouldn't say there's zero progression. The most "natural" way to watch TOS - at least in the first season - is The Cage, Where No Man Has Gone Before, The Man Trap, Charlie X, and then follow it through broadcast order. There is some continuity (I, Mudd obviously happened after Mudd's Women, for example), but it's subtle.
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Dec 4, 2017 20:37
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Mike the TV posted:I have a conspiracy theory that Enterprise, and then especially STD are a targeted subversion of a classical example of a socialist utopia. I have no doubt that the DS9 episode about forming a union would never be allowed today, or the TNG episodes that expressly mention the failures of capitalism. Instead now we only have a jingoistic techno-topia wherein humans are not evolved beyond greed as Roddenberry envisioned, but instead technology advanced to allow a different form of capitalism and nationalism. There is a subtle difference between the two futures of DS9 and STD, and I think it is intentionally changed by those who would shape media for ideological reasons. That makes a lot of sense. I like DS9, and I think that the darker tone was needed after TNG, which was sometimes too utopian. But subsequent series post-Voyager have gone too far in the dark and gritty direction. TOS struck a pretty good balance between optimism and realism, and I wish modern Trek could rediscover that balance. I'm really getting tired of dark and gritty. Also, "tech-topia" is such a great term that I might steal it. This is off subject, but I feel like Silicon Valley is trying to move us in that direction, but until now I didn't quite have a term for what I was trying to say.
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Dec 4, 2017 21:16
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Tighclops posted:my main impression of STD is of a show too ashamed of it's roots to appeal to nostalgia or familiarity effectively and too ineptly put together to grow anywhere compelling Well stated. I haven't seen any of Discovery, but very little that I've read or seen here is prompting me to change my mind. As someone who got into Star Trek through TOS, I don't appreciate how the writers of Discovery seem to want TOS to disappear down the memory hole, and the show itself seems too...CW-like for me. I don't necessarily have anything CW shows, but they all look and sound alike to me, and I'm not a huge fan of that particular...style, I guess. I'd rather just stick with classic Trek, like TOS/TNG/DS9. Anything after that generally isn't that good, in my opinion.
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Dec 23, 2017 17:18
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Bohemian Nights posted:I mean, not really. I know quite a few people who are enjoying discovery, and the most obvious thing they have in common is not having given a poo poo about previous star treks. Honestly this is probably a vast improvement over the pre-existing trekkie fanbase That's honestly one of the things I find most objectionable about Discovery, aside from some of its fans. I don't think new Star Trek shows should be chained to every penny-ante bit of canon from previous series, but it'd be nice if they added to the universe without making GBS threads over most of what came before it. TNG managed to do that, and that's one big reason why it gained such a following after the initial new-show controversy wore off. Enterprise and Discovery seem to have one thing in common: not giving a poo poo about consistency and just taking a wrecking ball to it. That's why I don't pay much attention to most post-DS9 Trek.
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Jan 23, 2018 21:49
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Nessus posted:I think continuity should be sacrificed for the sake of a better story but I do not think that it is somehow inherently valuable to throw it overboard. Like, continuity should never be more than a guide for the waveform of the story rather than shackles. I don't think a story should be sacrificed to satisfy every little continuity thing, but I really resent the fact that Discovery has pretty much written off pre-TNG Trek completely. I get that it's seen as "dated", and that's fine. But I just don't see the point in having all these years of building up a universe just to jettison it when new shows come around.
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Jan 23, 2018 22:14
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Windows 98 posted:I just finished up TNG the other day. I had never seen an episode of Star Trek before. I dabbled a few episodes of TOS before deciding to move to TNG, and am ultimately glad I ended up watching TNG first. I watched every episode in order. At first I was a bit weary and ready to be dismissive, but TNG has placed itself in my top shows of all time now that I’m finished with it. I'm going to go against the grain and say TOS. You don't have to watch the whole thing, but certain episodes, like Balance of Terror and Errand of Mercy, might help provide some context for what comes later (not for DS9, but TNG-era Star Trek). DS9 is a solid choice, but I have to put a vote in for TOS because it's the series that started it all.
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Jan 29, 2018 06:36
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Jeb! Repetition posted:I'm thinking about going through the must-watch episodes of TOS. What others are there? Sir Leming and Skasion have pretty good lists. I would add The Enterprise Incident, since I'm a bit surprised it didn't make either list. It's one of the third season's truly all-around good episodes, and not merely "funny" good like, say, Spock's Brain.
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Jan 29, 2018 20:07
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