Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Bohemian Nights posted:

The generally excellent Caspian Report has published a new video about the "geo-economics of Saudi Arabia�s NEOM project"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKgwm6WKhSg

I, too, play Cities: Skylines with unlimited funds mod

# ¿ Nov 6, 2017 21:41

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 12:15

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Rigged Death Trap posted:

When will this morally decrepit gently caress keel over and die already

Seriously, he's making GWB appear sympathetic in comparison

# ¿ Nov 12, 2017 18:25

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

Invaded Iraq under false pretences basically. The consequences are still felt to this day, most notably the rise and fall of ISIS

But he was innocent, he was just following God's orders.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2017 22:55

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

It shouldn't be binary. An attack against a military target can be terrorism by its intent and effects and if we compare the effectiveness of this strike in military terms and in terms of publicity, I'd say it didn't hurt Iranian armed forces at all but it made international news.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2018 19:32

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Sinteres posted:

You think deliberately murdering civilians can be good?

Subjectively any act of violence can be good, otherwise there would be no violence of any sort because what would be the point. Was bombing German cities in WW2 good, even when it killed civilians, including children and people who resisted Nazis? It depends entirely on perspective. But objectively there is zero difference between good and evil, you idiot!!!

# ¿ Sep 23, 2018 19:13

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

HorrificExistence posted:

what's a civilian?

If you pay taxes or otherwise give any material or moral support to a military or a non-state armed faction, then you are a legit military target according to someone's definition.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2018 19:21

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Frightening Knight posted:

I genuinely don't understand the point of the body double. Were they trying to establish some kind of alibi?

He took a cab, so maybe the plan was that the driver would back the story. I just don't understand how they didn't think that there'd be CCTV everywhere they went in Istanbul. Or maybe these geniuses thought that security cameras in year 1440 after Hijra would record on betamax cassettes with grainy b/w quality.

# ¿ Oct 22, 2018 18:15

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Rust Martialis posted:

Allegedly they've found body parts...

It's going to be a Halloween themed easter egg hunt.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2018 15:52

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

BM: Brown Moses, that's a little too close to poo poo Moses. How 'bout if I'm Beige Moses? That sounds good to me, I'll be Beige Moses.
Lowtax: You're not Beige Moses. Some guy on some other subforum is Beige Moses.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2018 20:13

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Cable Guy posted:

Saudi sisters whose bodies were found bound together near Hudson River died by suicide

Willie Tomg posted:

They'll be in good company with the BLM activists who were found to have shot themselves in the head twice.

I think it's certainly plausible, if extremely dark.

Makes you think what kind of living hell awaited them in Saudi Arabia if a double suicide by drowning was the preferable option...

At the same time, there is some super-bitter sweetness in considering that they chose to stay together to the very end with the help of duct tape. It's awful to imagine.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2019 19:08

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Tab8715 posted:

What reason would Iran have with current environment to gain from attacking tankers in Gulf?

The US sanctions on Iran are causing desperation. Since Iran doesn't want to capitulate, they have to escalate things to the point where USA is willing to negotiate again. At the same time, escalating to a full war wouldn't serve them but incidents like these would send enough of a message to Washington while retaining plausible deniability. If US warships were attacked then that could lead to the public supporting war measures giving Trump more room for response, but when civilian tankers are attacked then oil market prices will go up, which is bad for Trump, but most likely the public are not going to lean to hawkish measures when the cause is uncertain.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2019 12:27

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

This loving thread :negative:

# ¿ Jun 16, 2019 17:26

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Warbadger posted:

It's not really a normal outcome, both in that crews lobbing missiles around should be aware of where not to lob said missiles and a lot of SAMs being designed to detonate once the target has been lost/missed. But the SAA isn't exactly the most competent group around and their missiles are mostly old Soviet stuff that didn't really prioritize those kind of considerations.

During the Kosovo war a NATO fighter fired an anti-radar missile against a Serbian SAM site that then flew its own way, landing on an apartment building in Sophia, Bulgaria. Luckily no one was injured but of course it wasn't good optics for the operation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/apr/30/richardnortontaylor.kateconnolly

The worst outcome of a runaway missile has to be that Ukrainian army's wargame in the Black Sea when a live missile missed whatever practise target it was intended to hit and then acquired and destroyed a civilian airliner, killing 78.

I'm sure there are far more 'oopsies' than get reported, but usually the missiles that miss splash to the sea in areas like this. OTOH as missile ranges increase, there will be more incidents.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2019 23:27

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

The most

of Iran news

https://www.iranhumanrights.org/2019/07/iranian-heavy-metal-band-members-escape-to-norway-after-receiving-prison-sentences/

quote:

Nikan Khosravi and Arash Ilkhani, members of the Iranian heavy metal band Confess, have left Iran to escape prosecution and prison for their art.

�We took a risk and left the country so that we could continue our work,� Khosravi said in an interview with the Center for Human Rights in Iran (CHRI) on July 27, 2019.

On July 3, 2019, Branch 34 of the Appeals Court in Tehran sentenced Khosravi to 12.5 years in prison and 74 lashes and Ilkhani was given two years in prison plus a four-year suspended prison sentence.

Both were charged with �insulting the sacred� and �propaganda against the state.� But Khosravi was later slapped with additional charges, including �insulting the Supreme Leader and President� as well as �disturbing public opinion through the production of music containing anti-regime lyrics and insulting content and for participating in interviews with the opposition media.�

Khosravi and Ilkhani were arrested by the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) Intelligence Organization after publishing their second album in November 2015. At the time, they were undergraduate students at the Islamic Azad University, Roudehen Branch, near Tehran, studying English translation.

They were initially held in solitary confinement for 10 days in Evin Prison�s Ward 2-A, under the control of the IRGC, and then moved to a public ward for month, before being released on bail.

In March 2016, they were arrested once again and held for two months, during which time they were put on trial.

�After the trial in (Branch 28 of) the Revolutionary Court, I was banned from leaving the country. But I got myself illegally smuggled across the border into Turkey,� Khosravi told CHRI. �I continued my musical work and also gave interviews about the verdict against me and Arash and what had happened during interrogations and the trial. I also published the original verdict, which resulted in new charges against me.�

The Appeals Court hearing was held on July 25, 2018, and February 24, 2019, during which Ilkhani was present along with his lawyer.

�After the second appeal hearing, Arash called me very worried and said he was sure the sentence against him would be upheld. He said the judge was really angry. So I contacted the organization that had helped me get asylum in Norway and asked if they could do the same for Arash. About 10-12 days later Arash got out of Iran. He was able to go to Turkey because there was no travel ban on him and three weeks later he came to Norway.�

tl;dr: Iranian justice system is poo poo, heavy metal is awesome

# ¿ Jul 30, 2019 21:04

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Props to Norway for having a heavy metal asylum program though.

I wish Finland was like that. Seriously we're not pulling our weight compared to Norway or especially Sweden wrt quota refugees. Though the new gov is supposed to increase the quota, but not quite enough...

AND Finland has the most metal bands per population, so this is helping the Norwegians catch up :argh:

# ¿ Jul 31, 2019 15:47

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

With regards to attacking a desalination plant, my experience is that it is really difficult to get water to burn on its own so the methods would have to be different from those used against an oil refinery. And I would think twice before poisoning the water supply of someone who could do the same to me.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2019 17:59

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Fly Molo posted:

Well, yeah, but any big industrial plant like that is gonna have some expensive fiddly bits that would take loving forever to replace

Electrical transformers, pump components, idk.

Yes you could try that, but the difference is that you'd have to hit them very precisely and the damage would be extremely local if you are limited to drone bombing. Whereas in a petrochemical plant you can expect that just getting a few fires started will quickly spread.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2019 18:01

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Grape posted:

Also it gets its own green color to highlight their clean hands, while countries like Oman are left in mysterious light grey.
What goes on in Oman? Who knows... maybe war probably.

Qatar is some oriental mystery country that BBC reporters have not visited in the past decade.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2019 01:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Haystack posted:

Might want to include a disclaimer that this is a video of active combat, for those who are troubled by such things.

From the leisurely way the men close to camera are walking, my interpretation is that the gunshots heard on the video are more likely jubilant shots into the air. My understanding of Middle eastern militia's ammunition consumption based on a number of videos seen over the years is that one third goes into firing into air/at random objects in the horizon when you're approaching the target, one third is fired all over the place when engaged with the enemy, and then the last third is fired into air when the enemy retreats. Remember to fire full automatic with AK-47 without aiming, you may not hit anything but the side that makes the biggest racket usually wins.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2019 16:28

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Retarded Goatee posted:

I'm pretty sure that the Ottomans claimed the title of Kayser-i R�m.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2019 14:25

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

GreyjoyBastard posted:

who's actually going to support Turkey if we somehow god forbid get in a shooting war though

Russia, Iran, and Western Europe are all mad about this, China doesn't give a gently caress

it's not ww3, it's just horrible

Russia is so mad about this that they veto'd the UNSC resolution to condemn Turkey's attack.

I just came back from a pro-Rojava demonstration. Some demands were sellable and realistically achievable, such as cancelling all arms export licenses to Turkey. Some were less so, such as cutting all diplomatic ties with Turkey. :stare:

# ¿ Oct 12, 2019 13:16

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Russia has no trouble backing Erdogan here because

1) it weakens the western coalition

2) it weakens the only ostensibly pro-US faction in Syria

3) there is less danger of Turkey continuing to occupy northern Syria indefinitely than there is of US-backed YPG holding onto Syrian Kurdistan - Turkish army will eventually have to withdraw, and their FSA buddies are less of an obstacle to SAA than YPG would be

So while in the short period the Turkish operation is against Russia's and Syria's interests, I believe that in the long run it is a net gain to Assad and Putin. However - this being Middle East, a year from now everything can be reversed as Caliphate 2.0 conquers Istanbul and President Buttigieg sends troops to look for WMDs in Damascus and it's so frustrating!

# ¿ Oct 12, 2019 17:00

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

MiddleOne posted:

I think anything less than the diplomatic response levied at Russia over Crimea should be considered a cop-out. Attempts at annexing territory � nevermind the thinly veiled ambition of doing it through ethnic cleansing � needs to be hit down on hard.

But no one cut diplomatic ties with Russia because of the Crimea. Not even Ukraine.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2019 21:21

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

There is just no chance that YPG could stand against a full NATO army, not without heavy fire support or fortified positions. The question is whether they can force Turks to run out of momentum in the coming weeks while maintaining their fighting capability. With Turkish air and artillery superiority this is unlikely, you just can't fight a conventional combined arms army on the same terms if you have one arm tied behind your back. The only way for Kurds to survive is to go unconventional, conduct guerrilla raids and make bomb attacks, or surrender.

frajaq posted:

uhhh what which side do we root for again

well if SANA says so!

# ¿ Oct 13, 2019 18:31

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Randarkman posted:

You know... At least Nixon kind of took his time, mostly in an attempt to make himself and America look good (if you squinted and deluded yourself), when he betrayed the South Vietnamese. Trump is making that very difficult for even the most deluded people I believe.

Not to mention that USA resettled over 1,2 million refugees from Indochina. Trump meanwhile is campaigning on xenophoby and demonization of refugees.

But that's what you get for not helping Americans in Normandy!

# ¿ Oct 14, 2019 14:16

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Darth Walrus posted:

https://twitter.com/theonion/status/1183806943682584576?s=21

their plan worked!

quote:

IDLIB, SYRIA�Explaining that they hoped the personnel changes would enable the organization to avoid the State Department�s scrutiny, ISIS leaders announced Monday that they had added a few violent white supremacists to the group in a bid to get the U.S. to rescind its designation of ISIS as terrorists.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2019 20:49

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

frajaq posted:

lol this is just sad

no, if Russians aren't going to turn that into a totally rad motorbike jump ramp then that would be sad

# ¿ Oct 15, 2019 17:19

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Squalid posted:

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1184687862090010624?s=21

Thank you President Buck Sexton :patriot:

# ¿ Oct 17, 2019 14:23

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

NATO is powerless about Turkey because you should never get involved in a land war in Asia Minor.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2019 09:22

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

pro starcraft loser posted:

He's going to demand the author of this piece be arrested.

Turkey just issued an Interpol Red Notice on 58% of Germans.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2019 12:26

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Less Claypool posted:

I didn�t realize they didn�t have some blueprint for a member to get kicked out. I also didn�t realize that a NATO member could buy military arms from Russia, I thought that would be set in stone from the get go.

NATO has over the years repeatedly and explicitly said that they are not an anti-Russian alliance and even have included Russia in the Parnership for Peace which is why their eastward spread should be no reason for Kremlin to get angsty about. It wouldn't be very consistent then if NATO declared that buying arms from Russia is forbidden. In this sense Russia is no different to Sweden or Switzerland.

Individual member states may have differing opinions on whether it's a good idea and you'd still need to consider compatibility of systems with NATO standards, but NATO as a treaty organization doesn't have authority to forbid members from doing arms trade with whoever they want.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2019 14:02

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

enraged_camel posted:

The whole saga is very interesting. Here's a good summary: https://www.defenseworld.net/feature/20/Battle_of_the_Air_Defense_Systems__S_400_Vs_Patriot_and_THAAD

Basically, buying Patriot missiles has been a very expensive endeavor for Turkey over the years. They want to be able to manufacture them domestically and have their own trained crews to be able to operate them, but the USA has refused to include technology and knowledge transfer in the sales packages. So Erdogan got pissed and issued an RFP, and after a few rounds, Russia ended up winning.

The other thing that makes S400 way more attractive is this part:

quote:
�Countries seeking effective defense against aircraft andmissiles will have to buy two costly American systems � Patriot and THAAD, while the Russian S-400 can unite their functions. S-400 can also hit difficult ballistic targets at distances up to 60 km, The ability to shoot down the high-speed targets of S-400 almost equals THAAD (around 17 km/hour),� a defense industry source said.

A correction to that quote, it should be 17 thousand km/hour. :flashfact:

Another reason why Pentagon doesn't like this is that the US had been selling F-35 to Turkey, but Turkey having both S-400 and F-35 would mean that Russians would have an opportunity to study the F-35's capabilities and develop countermeasures to it as 'instructors'. There's now five planes out of 100 ready but they are all in USA where the Turkish pilots and engineers were to be trained. All in all this is going to be a very costly cancellation and Putin must have made Erdogan some really good offers for him to risk a 9 billion dollar investment in Turkish industries.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially-kicked-out-of-f-35-program/

quote:

Turkey, a partner in the F-35 program that helped fund the development of the jet, planned to buy 100 F-35As. Its first jet was rolled out in June 2018 in a festive �delivery ceremony." Though Turkey formally owns its jets, the U.S. has said it has the power to keep the planes from moving to Turkish soil and intends to keep all four existing Turkish jets from leaving the U.S.

Lord avoided saying that the door was shut on Turkey returning to the program should the S-400 be removed from its soil and repeatedly used the term �suspension� to characterize Turkey�s status in the F-35 program. When asked twice whether Turkey could be welcomed back if the situation changes, Lord did not give a direct answer one way or the other.

�At this point, the Turks have made a decision. We have said the F-35 and S-400 are incompatible. We will work forward at this point to unwind the relationship," she said.

All Turkish F-35 personnel have been informed they must leave the U.S. by July 31, including 20 individuals assigned to the Joint Program Office. Neither official would comment on if any of those individuals have requested asylum.

By March 2020, Turkey�s industrial participation in the F-35 program, which includes production on about 900 parts for the stealthy fighter, will be �unwound." Lord said the projection is this will cost Turkey�s economy around $9 billion over the life of the program. American suppliers will initially fill those production roles, but the goal is to eventually farm some of it out to other partners.

Lord said the process will have �minimal� impacts on the larger F-35 program because of the planning that has already gone on for several months.

To move the production from Turkey to the U.S. will require between $500-$600 million in nonrecurring engineering costs, Lord said. Which partners, if any, would be willing to buy the F-35s already in production for Turkey was still being worked out.

Trachtenberg consistently delivered the same message over and over: that this situation is not one that should impact the broader NATO alliance. That includes Turkey�s participation in NATO exercises, particularly upcoming events in Georgia, Germany and Ukraine.

Asked several times how Turkey having an air-defense system that cannot be linked to other NATO systems and could be used to spy on NATO jets would not harm alliance cohesion, Trachtenberg repeatedly said the relationship between Turkey, the U.S. and NATO will be able to continue.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2019 16:21

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

It's pathetic how Assad's troops would have done this more cleanly. Just drop chlorine on the site, killing all the terrorists without explosions and civilian blood, then send troops in to remove the explosives and the civilian bodies. Bing bang bong its simple!

# ¿ Nov 5, 2019 19:53

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Brown Moses posted:

Let's see if his security attack some protesters this time around.

Has Trump already ordered the withdrawal of all US security personnel from DC so Turks can establish a Peace Corridor?

# ¿ Nov 13, 2019 09:24

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Pavel will exercise his biceps and pecs by pumping American iron. THEN PAVEL SMASH THINGS.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2019 13:46

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Speaking of dual citizenships - Iraqi defense minister Najah al-Shammari and his wife are now being investigated by Swedish police for welfare fraud. Based on some reporting an Iraqi government minister can't hold the citizenship of another country?

https://nyheteridag.se/iraqi-defense-minister-is-receiving-welfare-in-sweden-investigated-by-police/

quote:

Najah al-Shammari�s current registered residence is in a suburb of Stockholm, despite him being the Defense Minister of Iraq. Al-Shammari is also a Swedish citizen, something which he achieved in 2015, after six years in Sweden. A story which Nyheter Idag revealed earlier in the week using legal documents and several sources, one being AFP journalist Ammar Karim, based in Baghdad.

Being registered at the wrong address is a criminal offence in Sweden. Al-Shammari and his wife are also investigated for welfare fraud.

Despite working as Defense Minister, al-Shammari still receives welfare from the Swedish Social Insurance Agency (F�rs�kringskassan). Neither al-Shammari nor his wife have a registered income the last couple of years.

In their application for welfare from the Swedish Social Insurance Agency, the couple also claims that they have no income.

A police source tells Nyheter Idag that there is an ongoing investigation into al-Shammari and his wife.

� Both he and his wife are on welfare, says the police source.

The Swedish Social Insurance Agency is responsible for paying out the welfare to the Iraqi Defense Minister and wife. On a monthly basis they are receiving in total circa 9 400 Swedish Krona, or $976, according to the police source.

� In their application, which they have both signed, it is stated that they both are living on welfare from the local government.

The police were alerted on the matter of the Iraqi top politician and his wife by an anonymous tip in early November, a little more than a week prior to Nyheter Idag�s first article on Najah al-Shammari.

I just hope Mr. Karim stays safe, reporting on the Iraqi defense minister's crimes while based in Baghdad sounds dangerous :ohdear:

# ¿ Nov 22, 2019 22:58

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Unimpressed posted:

Wow, Swedish welfare must be pretty good for it to matter to a senior government minister in one of the most corrupt governments in the world.

Less than a thousand euros a month for the two of them. Definitely doesn't sound like worth it, so either

a) they are that stupid and greedy

b) someone else is drawing welfare on their names

c) this is a mistake

or any mix of the above!

# ¿ Nov 22, 2019 23:57

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Iraqi PM Abdul Mahdi resigns after police kill 40 protesters

About time he took the hint, but the price is unbearable.

And Sudan is Middle East, right? Oh well, close enough. Some moderately positive news.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-50596805

quote:

Sudan has repealed a restrictive public order law that controlled how women acted and dressed in public.

On Twitter, Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok paid tribute to women who had "endured the atrocities that resulted from the implementation of this law".

The country's transitional authorities also dissolved the party of former President Omar al-Bashir.

Nenonen fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 29, 2019

# ¿ Nov 29, 2019 14:37

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Turkey recently signed a maritime agreement with Libya (I'm sure Turkey's military support has nothing to do with Libyan government's willingness to sign) that basically gives Turkey the control of eastern Mediterranean and blocks the building of EastMed pipeline from Israel to Greece via Greek Cyprus. All of the neighbouring countries have protested this as a blatant grab of oil and gas reserves. Turkey acts like Crete or Cyprus don't even exist.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2019 18:15

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 12:15

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Count Roland posted:

How does this block the construction of a pipeline? Other countries do not need to recognize an agreement between Turkey and Libya.

They have been sending Turkish navy to drive away anyone breaching their self-claimed maritime rights. So far they have been blocking research vessels from Italy and Israel. An Italian frigate made a stop in Cyprus last week reportedly to deliver the message that they too can show their flag in the area. I love what a beautiful mess NATO is in the Med.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2019 18:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread: Clarissa Explains the Fall

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