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Fister Roboto posted:No fight for liberation is ever going to be "clean". Oppression and subjugation literally dehumanizes people - it turns them into animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find. Very often that opportunity is towards people who are not directly responsible for their subjugation. And this is often a deliberate tactic on the part of the subjugator, to put innocent civilians in the direct line of fire, so that violence against them can be used to justify further oppression. "Palestinians are animals who have no choice but to lash out violently at the first opportunity they find." is a pretty awful take. You don't need to dehumanize them in the exact same way right-wing Israelis do to explain their actions. You are doing it to excuse indiscriminate killings they commit, the Israelis calling them the same thing are doing it to excuse killing Palestinians indiscriminately. Zulily Zoetrope posted:I can't speak for anyone else, but this is the crux of the issue for me, at least. I try to avoid following the news and social media, but whatever I do come across is either Likud and their various right-wing allies describing Palestinians as rabid animals who deserve to be culled, or nominally more progressive politicians unequivocally condemning the initial attacks and declaring their support for Israel, while pointedly ignoring any historical or current atrocities being perpetrated against Palestinians. Completely agreed with this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2023 20:16
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LGD posted:That's fine, because like I said, the opinions of people demanding uncritical acceptance of blood libel as a precondition for conversation deserve no respect whatsoever, a stance that shouldn't be controversial. And I certainly don't have much interest in discussing a strawman thrown up as a transparent deflection. Please define how you are using the term blood libel. I find your usage really confusing. My understanding of the term is that it refers specifically to an antisemitic belief that Jews would kill Christian children for their blood to be used in religious rituals. That is also what I see in a very quick Google search.
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Oct 19, 2023 07:24
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LGD posted:Already did: Repurposing a term that is used to describe a specific antisemitic belief that has persisted for many hundreds of years to describe something different comes across to me as confusing as best, and antisemitic at worst. If you're looking for suggestions, "beheading lies" would capture the dishonesty you're trying to convey, more clearly relate it to the incident in question, and avoid the appearance of trying to repurpose a specific existing term. It does appear to be a private definition. The links below are what I get searching for "blood libel". They aren't cherry picked, they're the first results, and they refer to the antisemitic belief. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/blood-libel-false-incendiary-claim-against-jews https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/blood-libel https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-origins-of-blood-libel/tnamp/ https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/blood-libel Homeless Friend posted:I think the blood libel label is simply for ease of understanding, You could call it beheading libel. The important bit in that the killing is conveyed to be in a way that's almost alien in nature. I have been accused of being hung up on definitions, but I find it far more confusing than helpful.
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Oct 19, 2023 08:26
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:There is no material difference between those two. The latter carries a fig leaf of plausible deniablity which might help someone rationalize a UN veto or the like, which is all the more reason to reject the reframing. It wouldn't change anything except my opinion of the person saying it. If someone is willing to play a little loose with facts as long as the end result is the same, I would take what they said with a bit more scepticism. I'd argue that this kind of rhetoric is counterproductive, because it is seen as a sign of dishonesty.
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Oct 21, 2023 07:28
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celadon posted:I don't really understand this sentiment. "I like the good parts that lead to the revolution but i categorically reject the bad parts'" just seems like an extremely weak position to hold. Basically ever act of progress in human history required civilian casualties to implement, its kinda dogshit to say the means are bad and unjustified and you dont support them but the outcome is good and justified and you're proud to support that. There's considerable room between "I support revolutions and the freeing of slaves just as long as noone gets hurt" and "the cause is just, therefore literally anything done in furtherance of it is acceptable". I think it's reasonable try and stake out a line somewhere in between those extremes.
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Oct 25, 2023 21:03
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Gumball Gumption posted:Also for everyone who thinks it's very important to make sure they have put out their personal statements condemning Hamas, how often do you do the same for Israel? Do you occasionally make sure to condemn and denounce them on a schedule? For each individual action? Do you think those have helped the conflict? I haven't seen much discussion supporting Israel's actions. I have seen discussion downplaying Hamas's actions, like the very recent post about how they mostly attacked military targets. That may be why you are seeing people push for condemnations of Hamas and not for condemnations of Israel: people in this thread generally aren't trying to whitewash or downplay Israel's obvious atrocities.
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Oct 28, 2023 19:11
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Mean Baby posted:So what should Hamas do, exactly? They should start by asking "what actions will provide the highest likelihood of achieving our goals?" and then doing those things. If their goal is to inflict as much pain as possible on Israel and Israelis, consequences to the Palestine people be damned, then they are taking the right actions towards their goal. If their goals are a peaceful one or two state solution as soon as possible, then the actions they've taken are a huge step backwards, regardless of how righteous the Palestinian cause is. There's no question in my mind that their anger is justified, that Israel has committed horrible atrocities against them, and that any weighing of the scales of atrocities would show that Israel has committed, and continues to commit far more atrocities against the Palestinian people than the other way around. But they are supposed to be the leaders of their people. Leaders should be trying to chart the path that is best for their people, not simply trying to level the scales of atrocities, or simply striking out in (absolutely justified) anger. I obviously don't have a simple solution to solve everything, which is what you're asking for. I've been watching this 20 year old Frontline piece on why Oslo failed and it's been painful to see how much closer the region was to a real peace. It's also painful to see the same people loving things up back then that are loving things up now, Netanyahu especially. https://youtu.be/jt3PpqaLfxo?si=kEYz8YOzYTTGVwZu DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Oct 30, 2023 |
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Oct 30, 2023 01:04
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Mean Baby posted:Are you sure about that? Israel was already committed to ethnic cleansing and there was clearly no alternative within Israel. The alternative for Gaza was what, exactly? You're asking me to predict the future. I can't say for sure that this has been a gigantic step back for peace between Israel and Palestine but it sure looks like one where I'm sitting now. Divestment and sanctions worked against apartheid South Africa. If you are asking me, personally, as a non expert what I think, that is the model I would try and follow. That kind of thing requires the sympathy of the international community to be on your side. The Hamas attack was counterproductive if that's the goal, in my opinion.
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Oct 30, 2023 01:31
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Mean Baby posted:Ultimately I wish an end to violence and for a single, secular state, but I’m not going to tut-tut the only resistance to genocide that has shown any effectiveness. All other paths have lead to complete failure. How has it been effective? If your bar is "any effectiveness" then you could point at Oslo which at least resulted in Israel withdrawing from Jericho and much of the Gaza strip.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:05
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Groovelord Neato posted:Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until militant action forced them to. Israel didn't boot the settlers out of Gaza until they came to a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. I think it's an absurd simplification to argue that violence is the only thing that shown any effectiveness, which is what I was responding to.
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Oct 30, 2023 02:43
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moths posted:Instead they ran with baby decapitations because it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. This is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence, and no the one lady's account of seeing people get shot in the crossfire in a kibbutz isn't sufficient to make that claim.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:01
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Stringent posted:Eyewitness testimony from a non-state aligned party is actually the best evidence of what took place that's currently available, as far as I'm aware. So post it. Or is it that one eyewitness account of a gunfight in a kibbutz I referred to? I have not gone through the GoPro footage because I don't want to watch people get killed, but if they showed that the civilians were actually killed by Israeli troops and not Hamas I think someone would've mentioned it.
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Oct 30, 2023 04:11
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BUUNNI posted:Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, seems to have covered this event a few days ago. Other news sites have also written about this. This is the claim: moths posted:it's looking more and more like the October 7 Israeli civilians were killed by chickenshit IDF panicking. Your Haaretz article doesn't say this from what I can see in front of the paywall, with Google translate. Can you post a full article with translation?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:35
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BUUNNI posted:There have been reports of the IDF shelling and destroying settler buildings and killing their own citizens. If you can find proof that the IDF got rid of the hannibal directive protocol please show it. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Can you clarify?
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Oct 30, 2023 04:54
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Main Paineframe posted:Israel did not boot the settlers out of Gaza as part of or as a result of a negotiated agreement between the PLO and Israel. Sorry, I was referring to the Gaza–Jericho Agreement, which looks like it led to only a partial withdrawal. My mistake. The point I was arguing against was that violence was the only thing that had shown any effectiveness. It's a bad example though.
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Oct 30, 2023 06:42
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VitalSigns posted:It doesn't seem like you actually disagree with anyone you're arguing with, they're talking about the founding of Israel being a colonial project and best I can tell you're talking about whether Tel Aviv is ruled from a foreign capitol today (obviously it isn't). It looks like you missed the initial claim that Israel was *and is now* a colonial project, which is what started this whole "colony of what country?" settler-colonialism/colonialism discussion. Here it is: Noise Complaint posted:What I argued is that Israel as a state was a colonial project first and foremost and still is to this day. You are right, however, that nobody seems to actually disagree with NovemberMike, it's just a circle of confusion. I think if Noise Complaint had said settler-colonial it wouldn't have sparked this. Hopefully that helps end the confusion.
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Nov 2, 2023 04:26
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VitalSigns posted:Ah thank you, you're right there is confusion but i think you're not quite right about exactly what. "Colonial project" is different from "colony" Agreed, but I think that is how it was read.
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Nov 2, 2023 04:45
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Pvt. Parts posted:Also, is it really so impossible that it was in fact full of weapons/Hamas? If I were Hamas, I'd probably use ambulances to move things around so as to not attract attention and deter strikes. That incentive seems pretty clear to me. This is speculation. Without support, I think the reasonable approach is to assume as a starting point that ambulances are actually ambulances. The onus on proving otherwise should be on the party that made the decision to bomb ambulances. Given their repeatedly demonstrated willingness to simply lie or even actively create disinformation, the word of the IDF or the Israeli government is not sufficient, in my opinion.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:01
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Pvt. Parts posted:If Hamas knew that ambulance = invincible then what do you as an IDF commander just let them play that card over and over? If I had good intel, which is key, I would absolutely not hesitate to disarm the enemy through such a disguise. You would also need to show that evidence, or be branded a war criminal. That's where we are today.
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Nov 3, 2023 21:40
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Discendo Vox posted:Another good article taking an angle not commonly direct reported from the New Yorker: Excellent article. I'm not surprised to see Itamar Ben-Gvir show up. His presence as Minister of National Security is a good example of how right wing the current Israeli government is. For folks who aren't familiar, his Wikipedia page is worth a skim: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir He's essentially a fascist.
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Nov 9, 2023 08:03
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TGLT posted:A major reason Hamas exists in the state it does is because they did in fact eject Israel from Gaza. This is a claim that's been made repeatedly in this thread, but I don't see it well supported when I try to look into it. This page doesn't make that argument at all, for example. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza Do you have additional sources?
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Nov 21, 2023 16:10
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Edit: nevermind. Did a bit more reading.
DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 16:57
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skipmyseashells posted:every Muslim can smell the bullshit whenever westerners crocodile tear cry over xinjiang, doing it in the Palestine thread during a active genocide though is extra snivelling and useless What mosques is the US bombing? The US isn't Israel. And opposing ethnic cleansing in Palestine doesn't give you a freebie to excuse it elsewhere even if China is doing it more with concentration camps than bombs.
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Nov 22, 2023 19:57
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It wouldn't be out of the goodness of their hearts, it offers them a loyal group of hardened White supremacists to break emerging labour radicalism a la Ukrainian and Croatian collaborators after the war, or Cuban exiles in the US. You're misunderstanding the magnitude of population. In terms of size, it would be something like the entire population of Cuba moving to the US in 1959, not just people fleeing the revolution for whatever reason.
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Nov 27, 2023 07:09
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It will absolutely happen. You might have diehards choosing to live there for decades afterwards, but just like the Boers they're going to chafe living equally with a population they see as subhuman and start leaving in droves. A lot of white South Africans have left since 1995. The vast majority are still in South Africa. Personally, I don't think a solution that involves moving millions of people out of the region as a good idea. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Nov 27, 2023 |
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Nov 27, 2023 08:06
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Sephyr posted:Well, I feel like I may be veering into chud territory just by saying this, but Moses Maimonades and otherTorah scholar/philosophers very clearly wrote that if you throat a rock into a crowd aiming to kill a gentile and kill a fellow jew instead, you didn't really err because you wanted to kill the outsider. Switch the groups around and this wouldn't be out of place in a Fwd:fwd:fwd email chain about Muslims and taqiyya or some other cherry picked bullshit secret thing that Muslims totally believe but just don't tell you. It's anti-Semitic, and as supremely hosed up as the ongoing genocide in Palestine is, I don't think we (this thread, this forum, this site) should go there. But maybe anti-Semitism is not against the calm Hitler policy.
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Dec 5, 2023 00:06
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Sephyr posted:Revisiting this briefly for context. It was Dawkins, not Hitchens! It's been 10 years or more since I read both, but the phrasing got stuck in my head. Page 254, 'Love Thy Neighbor' It wasn't a cheap shot, I do think your post was anti-Semitic. I don't think digging up the Dawkins quote changes anything. Regarding my good faith: I reported it, and only replied to your post when it was clear that there was not going to be any response to it. You specifically presented it not as "an example of the type of argument -some- people might deploy" but as something specific that some Israelis are probably reaching for. The implication of "Moses Maimonades and otherTorah scholar/philosophers very clearly wrote that [...]" is that this specific thing is something that some significant number Jews today believe. You couch it with "Not saying every jew/israeli believes that", but if it's an insignificant number why bring it up at all? You're walking this back as a general "human history is rife with this kind of ethical contortionism, from 'nits will make lice' to 'they don't love their children as we do'." when it was a specific thing that some significant number of Jews today believe. That's why I think the comparison to a forwarded Islamophobic email about what Muslims *actually* believe is valid. I was going to let it drop, but you brought it back up and painted it as potentially a cheap shot so  Here's the post I responded to so the context isn't lost: Sephyr posted:Well, I feel like I may be veering into chud territory just by saying this, but Moses Maimonades and otherTorah scholar/philosophers very clearly wrote that if you throat a rock into a crowd aiming to kill a gentile and kill a fellow jew instead, you didn't really err because you wanted to kill the outsider.
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Dec 6, 2023 00:39
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Huge propaganda victories? Israeli held hostages released in exchange? Like, do you think Israel would have been less bloodthirsty if there weren't hostages? What's the benefit they're supposedly losing out on? It depends on the audience I guess. The 4 year old (3 year old at the time of capture) whose parents were killed in an attack on their Kibbutz made the news here. I don't think the hostage taking is necessarily the huge propaganda victory you're painting it as.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:55
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A big flaming stink posted:That 10 month old baby is almost certain to be able to be traded for dozens of Palestinians undergoing an unjust imprisonment and constant physical abuse. If one ignores the ethnicity of those likely to be freed, it strikes me as plainly obvious that the suffering of that baby is outweighed by the suffering of those imprisoned. I'm curious if there's some point where you don't feel the ends justify the means. If they roughed the baby up a little and it got the Israelis to move a bit faster, would it be worth it in your mind?
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Dec 6, 2023 22:55
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:This is literally what the Israelis did when they broke the arms and legs of the kids they were releasing. Stop having fantasies about Hamas torturing babies and examine the real world. Yeah that's not what I'm doing at all, and you can go to hell for suggesting it. I'm asking a question of the guy who thinks that the justification for taking 10 months old babies as hostages is "plainly obvious". DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 00:22
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Judgy Fucker posted:Considering the asymmetry between Israel and Hamas' capabilities, how do you suggest they do that? With an emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties, of course. This is a loaded question, but let me try and assume good faith and answer: when taking captives, take the ones who are adults, and preferably the ones wearing uniforms. Jakabite posted:Nor do I, but I think it’s very easy to sit and criticise the ethical choices of a people engaged in an incredibly asymmetric war for the survival of their whole society. I completely agree with this. What got my hackles up was someone arguing that taking a 10 month old was a good move, actually. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 00:33
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Judgy Fucker posted:All of me thinks so. Razing Gaza to the ground, as they are in the process of doing, is utterly counterproductive to achieving the aim of "destroying Hamas." All it does is engender more hatred and degrade Israel's international standing. Genocide was always the goal. Nothing in your source discusses who was doing the short selling. Given that Netanyahu's popularity is dropping dramatically and the 10/7 attack seems to be considered a massive intelligence failure, I'm not sure how you get from your article to Israel knowing the attack was coming but doing nothing so they'd have a casus belli. Source on Netanyahu's popularity: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/11/18/a-lot-of-discontent-netanyahu-alone-as-israel-turns-on-wartime-pm Judgy Fucker posted:What is loaded about it? Kalit has opinions on how Hamas should resist Israel's genocide, I'm trying to tease out exactly how they should go about doing it. "Focus on members of the military or government instead of children and other civilians" seemed like such an obvious answer that even asking seemed loaded to me. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 01:41
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Judgy Fucker posted:Do Israeli hedge fund managers have access to Israeli intelligence? Otherwise who would be doing the short selling? People who are helping fund Hamas who had some clue this was coming? It'd be smart of Hamas to set this up and get some funding as a result of the attack. Hamas gets equipment somehow, so financing has to be something they think about. I'll be curious to see how the investigation plays out. Judgy Fucker posted:As I've already asked, how does Hamas meaningfully have the ability to do this? And I don't care about taking out some scrubs stationed in the Negev. How is Hamas supposed to go after Netanyahu et al.? They have the ability to take soldiers prisoner, and have taken soldiers as prisoners before. If I understand correctly, they have IDF soldiers as prisoners now. Your framing seems to be that they have no other option besides targeting civilians, but that clearly isn't the case. Taking babies and other obviously innocent people prisoner gives Israel a propaganda win, as do ghouls who cheerlead it. FlapYoJacks posted:And these photos have been verified they are from the day of the attack at the correct location and are actual documented victims of the attack by whom? Because again, if those photos were provided by Israeli police or the IDF they are immediately suspect unless independently verified by a neutral third party. Preferably at least two. If you click the BBC link it describes a video in which an eyewitness (not a soldier or cop) describes witnessing rapes. It'd be worth actually reading sources of you're asking people to provide them. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 02:10
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celadon posted:By that logic doesn't Israel bombing twenty thousand civilians to death give Hamas a pretty big propaganda win? By all counts, Israel has killed an order of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has, so if public sentiment was based off of civilian casualties you'd expect practically the whole world to be supporting Hamas. Yes absolutely. I think Israel's gross overreaction has been a huge propaganda win for Hamas. I think that's what WhiskeyWhiskers was trying to say above: WhiskeyWhiskers posted:They've shifted the entire geopolitical reality of the Middle East. Normalisation is dead and the citizens of the other Arab countries are angry and motivated. Israel is in a far more precarious situation than it found itself on the 6th of October. They've fundamentally shifted or solidified opinion of Israel in the minds of younger people globally. And there is major criticism of Israel's actions even within the halls of power of the Great Satan. People's War is a marathon, not a sprint.
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Dec 7, 2023 02:21
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FlapYoJacks posted:I’m not saying we do. I am saying that none of the videos described in the articles linked describe rape. From here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181 quote:Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers quote:Police have privately shown journalists a single horrific testimony that they filmed of a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the attack.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:30
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FlapYoJacks posted:I have directly addressed this article in a previous post. I have also repeatedly asked for independently verified sources not from Israel and you quote sources that are provided from Israel. Repeatedly posting the same article that I have addressed is not going to change anything. Please read the thread! Again: quote:Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers They are referring to videos *filmed by Hamas*. The gall of accusing people of not reading the thread when you clearly aren't reading it yourself is pretty amazing.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:07
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National Parks posted:The consistent position here is that videos of these allegations can't be independently verified, regardless of which side is claimed to have shot them. The link I posted has a third party (the BBC) saying that a Hamas video showed evidence of sexual assault. 1. They didn't say this video came via Israeli authorities 2. I have a hard time believing that Hamas would insert evidence of sexual assault that didn't happen. Claiming they blew up 385 tanks served their purposes. Claiming they committed sexual assault doesn't. So the responses to this just read like abject denial in the face of the evidence they asked for.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:25
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FlapYoJacks posted:How else would they have procured the video? If that video had been released anywhere else, it would be all over the internet. The previous paragraph says: Why is it logical to apply the description of one video to another video that doesn't have that description? The video from the police is the video of the eyewitness testimony.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:37
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National Parks posted:I'm not saying people here are doing this I'm saying The Israeli government and the US state department are doing this. The sources I have seen posted have been the BBC and UN Women, not the Israeli government or the US state department. National Parks posted:The reason people are pushing back against these sources is they are being used to justify the genocide of the people of Gaza, not because they are in denial about the reality of sexual assault against women all over the world. If the reason people are pushing back is not because of the truth of what actually happened, but because Israel is doing genocide, it does clarify things. I do think you are essentially saying out loud that this discussion is not in good faith. Kalit posted:No one here is doing this. Thank you for explaining.. But that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Hamas aren't [also] evil and wouldn't dare rape women. I think Kalit nails the point here: you do not have to ignore evidence to the point of ridiculousness (like claiming that the description of one video applies to another, as FlapYoJacks did) in order to think Israel shouldn't be doing genocide in Gaza. Israel shouldn't be doing genocide in Gaza. Hamas fighters shouldn't be commiting rape. The genocide is far worse than rapes. One does not excuse the other. boo boo bear posted:per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. Source this please. I couldn't find it. 
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Dec 7, 2023 05:43
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National Parks posted:This is scrambling up what I said and removing the context of my entire post. You don't get to unilaterally assert truth when we are having a discussion of the validity of the claims. Why? You've already said that the reason people are challenging the validity is because Israel is doing genocide. I haven't seen them disputed in a way that I think is valid. If you want to convince me, make a better argument. National Parks posted:Israel IS committing a genocide in Gaza. I could post dozens of articles about Israeli cabinet members talking about how they are going to kill every Palestinian, about how they are deliberately targeting schools and hospitals, about how many journalists they have murdered, or about how the IDF are about to start flooding all the aquifers under Gaza with loving seawater. Yes. I know. It's hosed up and should never happen. It also doesn't make accounts of sexual violence invalid. Mia Wasikowska posted:your googling sucks dude https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-appears-to-push-back-on-irresponsible-us-claim-hamas-refusing-to-release-raped-hostages Thank you. I made the mistake of going to the source named and searching the term mentioned rather than googling it. It also doesn't say what was claimed. Here it is in its entirety: quote:The Israel Defense Forces says public discussions about the state of captives held in Gaza has moved into reckless territory, urging those responsible to knock it off. Here's the claim: boo boo bear posted:per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. The Times of Israel note is specifically about the conditions of hostages. What we were discussing was the attack on 10/7. I don't see how it's relevant.
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Dec 7, 2023 08:38
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