Gundam Thread 5: That's no Anime, boy! No Anime!

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Gundam Thread 5: That's no Anime, boy! No Anime!

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Ethiser posted:

There�s a lot of disparaging of the Guntank going on in this thread and it is extremely upsetting. The movies replacing the Guntank with another Guncannon was when the franchise started to go downhill.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER

# ¿ Apr 20, 2022 20:24

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:52

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Because I've been reading too much Harry Potter discourse, I can't help but feel like the sometimes bland and milquetoast nothing you get out of some gundam shows' political messages (PEACE IS GOOD, WAR BAD, ANYTHING TO HAVE PEACE IS GOOD) can feel a bit detached and JK Rowling style "enlightened liberal".

Like, what the hell good is peace and going "War is Bad" when one side is actively like, out to do a genocide. I guess SEED gets around it by having everyone but the Enlightened set of families related by blood and marriage ruling Better!Japan becoming the leaders of the world while everyone else is infected with Racism, but I dunno.

I may be getting burned out on like, the general low effort easy message in mecha general of "PEACE IS GOOD" because there's only so much times you can have someone tell you that "Peace is always good" before you start asking if an unjust peace where people are like, enslaved or suffering, is still worth it.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Apr 26, 2022

# ¿ Apr 26, 2022 09:40

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ninjewtsu posted:

What gundam show specifically do you have in mind? To my knowledge they all have much more complex messaging on war than what you're describing here. "Peace is good" tends to be something gundam assumes you already know and it builds its messaging from that as a starting point, not the end goal. Hell as discussed gundam frequently doubles back and questions that assumption - is peace good if that means letting fascist jackasses like the titans or gjallerhorn remain in charge? Signs point to no, not really, that kind of peace is not an acceptable state of affairs

SEED, 00, Age, Unicorn.

You can definitely make a case that its even more hypocritical in SEED, where the main characters refuse to 'kill' because they refuse to get their hand dirty and lose their moral high ground, but still leave people disabled and in flying coffins in the middle of battlefields and deep space.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2022 18:04

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Kanos posted:

Unicorn's feelings on conflict can be summed up by the Shamblo fight in episode 4, where Banagher tries as hard as he can to disable the Shamblo and talk Loni down and cannot bring himself to fight her. His reward for this is nearly dying and also significant portions of the Torrington town getting leveled, and the situation has to be resolved by Riddhe shooting Loni. It's horribly tragic and wasteful and did not have to be like this, but sometimes fighting and killing is the only way.

Isn't this supposed to be portrayed as Riddhe doing a bad thing, though?

# ¿ Apr 27, 2022 06:33

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Kanos posted:

Fukui is an extremely fervent Japanese nationalist who became famous for the Japanese equivalent of Tom Clancy novels before writing for Gundam, if that contextualizes things.

Would've been nice if they hadn't given him the Space Battleship Yamato franchise. A franchise already weird when it handles the Imperial Japanese Navy.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2022 03:05

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ninjewtsu posted:

In what world would a japanese nationalist play up the rape of nanking as a source of sympathy for its victims, rather than avoid the subject entirely?

I'd also definitely disagree with zeon in unicorn being depicted as being from a noble lost cause or whatever. They're occasionally visually presented in that light because that's how they see themselves and so that's how the direction communicates that to the audience, but for the most part (especially in the writing) they're pretty heavily presented as dumbasses who couldn't let go of their idealistic projections onto a cause that was in reality pretty awful.

Because he isn't referencing the Rape of Nanking- he's referencing the US occupation of Japan in the postwar, which did, unfortunately, have its fair share of sexual assault and the usual things that happen during an occupation and when you have soldiers around civilians. This isn't to pull a Bill Wurtz and morally equivocate the Rape of Nanking and rapes done by US servicemen during the post war militar y presence on Japan, of course- but ultranationalist japanese authors and politicians have absolutely made the point of "We're the victims, look at the way the US has treated us!"

he also literally goes "The light of Zeon replaced Religion."

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 29, 2022

# ¿ Apr 29, 2022 02:42

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

chiasaur11 posted:

We also have Al's prayer in 0080 to indicate that religion is still regularly practiced in Side Six. As for ZZ, it showed pretty big Muslim communities, with whole towns showing open religious observance, not just the small groups assisting Neo Zeon.

Indeed. The message I felt that the "Light of Zeon" line was trying to convey was that "Everyone in Space is a true believer in Zeon.' Admittedly, I don't think we can take it as that, because Marida is not an unbiased narrator in this situation... and also because Fukui's hack writing gave her the standard Unicorn Tragic Backstory (TM).

# ¿ Apr 29, 2022 19:54

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

MonsterEnvy posted:

Reminds me of the mutation of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA&t=421s

So the thing with this? This here? This is a lie made up by James Burton, because he was mad that his Blitzfighter design, a radar-less treetop level attacker armed with only 30mm cannons was rejected. The problem with The Pentagon Wars is that its only Burton's side of the story, and he is blatantly lying to make himself look better. Such as lying in the movie about the Bradley Program's cost (Initially budgeted at 12 Billion Dollars, it came out to around 8 Billion Dollarsr), the famous "Bradley Evolution" scene, in which Burton gets an earlier program (that was cancelled) to replace the M113 confused with the Bradley Program (The Bradley was initially designed to have a turret, being an IFV), and also the fact that Burton just doesn't loving know what an IFV is or the point of the tests being done.

The tests the army wanted done weren't "blow up the Bradley". They knew that anti-tank munitions would blow it up. It's an IFV, not a tank. The point was to see the effects of munitions on a level beyond "Blow it up"- hence stuff like replacing gunpowder with sand and fuel with water, because they wanted to see the effects of penetration and damage on the fighting compartment. As for the IFV part- the M113 is an APC. Its meant to carry men into battle, and then get out of there. The Bradley is an IFV- it's meant to carry a smaller amount of men into battle (Which was fine, because US Doctrine at the time had squad sizes that the Bradley could carry) while having the heavy armament to support them and provide fire support.

The problem with all of the so called Combat Reformers, like Pierre Sprey and Burton and Mike Sparks and Blacktail Design, is that they claim to know better than anyone else and also that any military technology from after 1960 is a useless boondoggle, while not recognizing the numerous changes to warfare that have happened since WW2. That and being funded by the Kremlin to go onto Russia Today and talk about how BAD AND OVERRELIANT ON TECHNOLOGY AMERICAN WEAPONS ARE and HOW RUGGED AND RELIABLE RUSSIAN STUFF IS because THE WEST IS SO CORRUPT AND RUSSIA IS FREE OF CORRUPTION IN MILITARY PROCUREMENT.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 08:03 on May 8, 2022

# ¿ May 8, 2022 07:56

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

War and Pieces posted:

Which itself was a mediocre anime that turned out to be a sleeper hit that revived the brand

Nah, Beast Wars did that, even in Japan. Then Beast Machines came out and Japan said "NO." and made a couple anime sequels to Beast Wars until they made RID, which was actually good.

# ¿ May 24, 2022 18:52

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

MAcross has a message of "The horribleness of the idol industry including all the abuse and harassment and commodification of Idols is good actually" and I Don't think 00 had that.

# ¿ May 31, 2022 20:55

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Arc Hammer posted:

Macross's core theme is that music transcends cultural, emotional and physical boundaries and transforming jets that shoot a lot of missiles are really really cool.

You can poo poo on the idol industry for several very valid reasons but macross having heroic idol singers is less a commentary on the idol culture being good actually and is more about music itself being a universal language and how you can explore that concept as a means to unite or divide.

Okay I was being uncharitable to Macross- it's real point is what Arc Hammer there said. Culture (And specifically music) transcends boundaries.

But the Idol Industry is a horrid slave industry and I can't see Macross as being anything but a Dystopia with it still existing and being even more glorified. I can't help but think of the way the US glorifies soldiers 9While not giving a poo poo about them once they leave the military) when I see the way Macross glorifies Idols and Idol culture.

# ¿ Jun 1, 2022 19:24

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I like Crossbone Gundam, I don't see what everyone's problem with it is. Same with the mechanical designs in Victory, even for Zanscare? Its certainly a step up from "The Zaku 2, Again."

# ¿ Jun 2, 2022 21:16

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ImpAtom posted:

Crossbone's art is loving terrible and the artist is a creep.

Alright I'll give you the creep part- I like the mechanical design in Crossbone, though.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2022 21:20

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I'm not a big fan of Pro-Zeon works, for the same reason someone might not be a fan of the Historiographies of WW2 that portray the Wehrmacht and SS as "Noble Soldiers, fighting with Honor against the Slavic Hordes, who only lost because of superior numbers and the allies cheating by having more industry."

EDIT: It's also really loving weird how Kira and Lacus are too pure to have sex together, while Lacus sleeps in a bed surrounded by young children.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2022 23:37

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

The reason Zeon has widespread support is that Gundam is for a Japanese Audience made by Japanese Creators, and as we all know, Sci-fi and MIlitary Fiction Authors have a habit of being very right wing to being out and out cryptofascists (Hi there, Baen Books and Tom Clancy). Therefore, because Zeon has, more and more over the years, become a stand in for Imperial Japan, its only natural that Zeon in universe has gained more and more widespread support as Imperial Japanese Apologia has become not only widely accepted, but somewhat mainstream in Japan given the rise and political powers of certain right wing groups within the LDP and the influence of the Nippon Kaigi.

Edit: it's really no different from, say, Western Sci-Fi novels about aliens invading having Germany's government give rejuvenation treatments to the Waffen SS to have them fight the Aliens, or any british sci-fi novel that has the UK (England) recreating the British Empire IN SPACE- Its not a unique problem unique to Japan.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jun 15, 2022

# ¿ Jun 15, 2022 01:09

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

War and Pieces posted:

Ok the Shrike team is weird!!

There's a lot of weird stuff in Victory that involves adult women and Uso. I like Victory and even I go "what's up with all this pedophilia?"

# ¿ Jun 29, 2022 22:45

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

As creepy as Victory is, I still prefer Uso, mostly, over child characters like Kio from Gundam Age.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2022 05:38

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

League of Extraordinary Gundams

# ¿ Jul 8, 2022 07:54

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Waffleman_ posted:

https://mangadex.org/chapter/a7be2e9c-b77d-4584-8daa-f2ad8b114836/1

The first chapter of Gundam Sequel got translated. Just be mindful it's

What.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2022 12:11

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

drrockso20 posted:

If nothing else I think we can all agree that "In My Dream" is a really drat good opening song, but then again I don't think any Tomino helmed series has had bad music

What about Garzey's Wing?

# ¿ Aug 14, 2022 22:13

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I still think the attempt to memory hole the fourth opening to Gundam Seed Destiny is hilarious. Apparently enough people disliked Wing of Words that its been replaced entirely with Vestige.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2022 02:02

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I think my favorite gundam series is Exosquad.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2022 02:57

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

chiasaur11 posted:

I have disappointing news.

Speaking of bad Gundam material, For the Barrel finished as it began. That is to say, incomprehensible, pointlessly grim, and with no flow to its events.

After introducing a weird subplot where Amuro's vision of his death was fake... somehow, he still dies exactly the same, Hayato dies for no reason in a side note, the Bright romance that was mentioned offhandedly a couple times is mentioned in the exact same way in the ending, with the exact same result they said would happen, Kai betrays the Federation, Sayla gets space cancer, and Char does... something after murdering Sleggar, but it's not clear.

The whole story never comes to any kind of conclusion, instead just kind of ending and doing an Animal House epilogue. It's a mess, and it's no wonder it was allowed to fade into obscurity.

Even so! It still gave us something of value, something that we would likely have never gotten otherwise.

Koyama Shigeto, the character designer, was a complete rookie when he started, not even drawing much for himself according to the development notes. If not for For the Barrel, he probably would never have entered the field. And looking at his work history, that would probably be a major loss, since he wound up working on a lot of good anime, including Inferno Cop, the greatest achievement in human history. So, without For the Barrel, we might not have Inferno Cop. And the world would be so much poorer for it.

A lesson for all of us, I suppose.

I think Terrible Writing Advice did an episode on this kind of "This story is mature so its pointlessly dark and grim" kind of writing.

Nuebot posted:

The worst thing about IGLOO is when it tries to act like it has something to say or an overarching story. Just give me more stupid zeon death traps or cool tank fights. Also make another one that's just more of that but not CG this time.

C'mon, lets be honest. IGLOO does have something to say, and that something is "Fascism and the Nazis are awesome."

Its just not a good thing to say.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2023 15:07

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

chiasaur11 posted:

It's also, unfortunately, a bit that makes Shiro's characterization weaker. If he felt like he was overcoming a lust for vengeance, that would be one thing, but he never sells the hatred for Zeon part of his characterization, so showing more motive and less action makes it feel more disconnected.

I think, for Shiro as a character, the Origin depiction of the gas would work better, even if the scene in 08th is more dramatic. Shiro watching everyone slowly drift off to sleep, never to wake up, makes him feel tragic and alone, which ties into his connecting with Aina. The bloody, horrifying scene makes his lack of rage more notable in a way the show doesn't do much with, so it doesn't jell with the rest of the episodes, despite being more visceral in a vacuum.

For a movie, the colony drop is a dramatic opening, and a bit of quick characterization for the people inside could make it really tragic... but also movies have very limited time, so spending even five minutes on characters we'll never see again just to establish that the war is hell feels like a risky investment. You want audiences attached to Amuro and company as soon as...

Thought. Not sure how well this would work, and it works best with some of the artsy techniques that aren't as popular at the moment, but you could open with a bit at a spaceport or somewhere, with Amuro as just one of the people the camera is following as they go about their daily lives in a montage, with the windows blinking out as the war kicks off and kills off character after character, before finally leaving Amuro alone in his boxers, fiddling with a circuit board as the alarm goes off.

If it was done well, it would give a sense of the horrifying scale of death, and leave the viewers attached to and worried for Amuro, since they've seen what happens to people in this war, and that it won't leave him alone for long.

But again, it'd be difficult to make it work. Not impossible, but difficult.

I've got like, a lot of problems with 08th MS Team: The colony gassing scene is good, but it completely fucks up the later story beats and Shiro's "I cannot shoot to kill at Zeon anymore" thing.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2023 19:04

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Arc Hammer posted:

Thankfully his idiotic peacenik attitude gets shot to hell the very next episode. A whole lot of people who don't want to kill each other (at the moment) get caught up in a bloodbath because one guy could help but be an rear end in a top hat. Wanting to be space jeus Kira "I don't kill" Yamato doesn't work when your opponent doesn't give you a choice. Shiro tries to be a peace hippie and ends up compromising his newfound morality before the episode is even finished.

I think a problem I, personally, have with a bunch of gundam is that it ends up going with really... I guess "Naive" views of pacifism, where you're worse for fighting the fascists/imperialists/aristocrats/genocidal assholes in self defense than they are for attacking you in the first place. I suppose its always been that a lot of series can never make the jump from "Violence is bad" to "Violence is bad but sometimes necessary".

And maybe a part of that is due to the popularity of the space nazi stand ins for imperial japan over in Japan.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2023 03:08

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Char being a complete moron aside, I feel like a lot of my "... Gee that actually sounds loving horrible when you think about it" hang ups from Gundam come from, specifically, AGE's Third Generation in Particular. Its not just the teamkilling fuckery of Kio, it's stuff like "This war is bad and I can't let the federation win over the genocidal assholes, so I'll become a pirate and needlessly prolong the war for decades and abandon my kid" and the other weird "Level 5 is trying to ape the themes and messages of Gundam but doesn't understand them or how to make them work" stuff.

Edit: Actually I think my main problem is that a show will try to ape or mimic the themes and messages of Gundam, but completely gently caress it up by going "These slaving roman empire cosplayers and this moderately corrupt democracy are exactly the same, so fighting is bad." SO its not a Gundam problem, its a Macross Delta Problem, its an Aldnoah Zero Problem, its a Layzner Problem. And, yes, its a Gundam Age Problem.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jan 5, 2023

# ¿ Jan 5, 2023 14:49

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

tsob posted:

Emma is a good person, but is, in my opinion, a pretty boring character. Then again, I'm the weirdo that actually likes Reccoa and thinks she's one of the most interesting characters in the show for the same reason I think a lot of people like Char in 0079; she's an absolutely broken and awful person, but the ways that she's broken and awful are interesting and line up with the themes of the show and franchise as a whole re: child soldiers and how a life of violence can break people for instance.

The really frustrating thing with Kio's pacifism is that one of his peers did pull him aside and actually gave him some good advice to the tune of "look, it's fine to think that you can save everyone, but you should start with your allies and then try and help your enemies once you're sure your allies are safe" and Kio basically just told him to gently caress off and ran off to do his own thing. The show actually had a character try and give a measured, thoughtful response that could push Kio to be a better person who held some ideals but wasn't ruled by them to exclusion of reality, and just used it as a way to brush off any realism in the face of Kio's idealism.

He does the exact opposite, in fact, and helps his enemies kill his allies!

# ¿ Jan 6, 2023 15:05

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

tsob posted:

The first episode ends with Gihren's speech playing, but it's also worth bearing in mind that Shiro joins the "08th" mobile suit team, which implies there are at least 7 others and that those others pre-exist his team by at least a bit. The exact timing on that isn't readily apparent, but it's obviously not just a couple of days or one or two prototype machines being fielded if there are multiple organized teams being fielded to the front lines. Sunrise have established them as first starting up in June or July of UC0079 if I recall, but that could change again if someone else decided to add some new stuff.

The Ball's production date has presumably been pushed back too, because despite being more primitive looking than the GM (or even the Guntank, really), the Ball was actually originally rolled out after the GM according to the original show, because the GM at least first saw use on Earth where the Ball is a space only use platform and was designed to be a cheap stop gap unit to compliment the GM's power and help fill out Federation ranks once they started pushing back against Zeon in space; which didn't happen in the original show until Solomon. I believe at least episode of MS IGLOO shows some Balls in use a bit earlier, but I'm not sure what the exact history of the Ball is at the moment.

My even hotter take is that the Gouf Custom fight isn't very good, and I think does a disservice to almost everyone involved. The only person it kind of makes look good is Norris himself, but it does so by making the entire 08th MS Team themselves look like incompetent idiots who've never been in a fight before. Shiro, the main character who rushed into battle against a Zaku/Dom hybrid with a loving Ball and actually destroyed the Zaku/Dom hybrid and who's been pretty calm under pressure throughout the show basically shits himself in fear when he sees the Gouf can lift a section of fallen bridge. Which, why would that be what instills fear when his own unit should be capable of that and more and the capacity to do so should be pretty well established given mobile suits are derived from worker units in the first place? Shiro fires his main gun at the Gouf with his eyes closed he's so panicked, and then a few seconds later when he's regained some composure he first every weapon he has at once at a unit directly in front of him and manages to hit everything around the Gouf but not land one bullet on the Gouf itself.

When Karen spots the Gouf atop the tower she fires exactly one shot at it, and then apparently just stands there watching slack jawed as Norris walks around the tower for several seconds before dropping down onto the first Guntank rather than following up in any way after missing. Sanders approaches the Gouf with literally no weapons out at one point, as if he's going to...I don't know, talk it down? The fight itself undermines the characterization of basically everyone in order to prop up Norris. The Gundam franchise as a whole is often seen as almost diefying "aces" and acting as if they're magical beings striding around a battlefield and untouchable by the common soldier, which is usually traced back to the original show but I'd say that 08th MS Team itself is one of the worst entries in that regard because everyone's reaction to Norris is "Oh no, an ACE!", as if Norris is a completely different class of pilot who they have no hope of defeating individually.

Which brings another point: the Gouf Custom fight is basically the climax of the show as a team battle. It's explicitly set up to be a battle where they need to fight as a team to defeat a single enemy because he's too good for any of them individually. It should be the test of the group after building them up throughout the show through adversity. It even starts out like it means to do that, with Shiro instructing Eleador to take command because they need to rely on his sensors in a built up urban area like the fight takes place in with no good visibility. Then that means nothing, Eleador's command amounts to "he's over there" once and there's no team work of note in the actual fight. During which they not only fail to achieve their objective, but, more criminally given this fight should be a show of what the cast can achieve by coming together since it's the final fight against a singularly strong enemy where the entire team is involved, the actual fight really just comes down to Shiro and Norris dueling 1 v 1. The rest of the team might as well not exist for half the fight, because it's just Shiro and Norris dueling.

After that fight the only thing left is the Apsalus, which Shiro fights with Aina instead of the 08th team and which makes sense for him to do, because that unit represents the obstacles between their relationship as well as the rest of the team just not being there physically to help. The team are there during the Gouf Custom fight though, and they should work together to overcome. Instead, Shiro just beats Norris on his own using some gumption after initially acting like a panicked chicken. The fight is all flash and no bang, and I don't even think the flash is particularly impressive after seeing more Gundam stuff because the units are so slow and there's so much talking to interrupt the flow of the battle.

But you don't just get it, Norris is an ace and the 08th Team are just regular pilots because an Ace is just so much better!

Edit: but real talk, Gundam, Universal Century Gundam and all its sidestories and spinoffs, has a very large problem with being very fascist adjacent and drawing from pro-fascist or "We took nazi memoirs they wrote to get NATO jobs at face value" viewpoints and histories of WW2.

While this can be seen in lots of things, such as the Federation being essentially an amalgamation of fascist complaints about Western Democracies, Fascist Racism and Propaganda against the West and the Soviet Union, and Japanese Propaganda and racism against China, Korea, and the United States, and postwar criticisms of Japan being an ally of the US; or the repeated idea that Zeon and Zeon Remnants are better at war because of their <insert fascist term here> while the Federation and its soldiers "Don't believe in things"- I think one way it shows up is if you look at Gundam's deification of Ace Pilots.

We never see talk of Federation Ace Pilots. There's nothing like "Man because of the lack of trained pilots on Zeon's side, so many Federation Pilots became Aces in a Day at A Baoa Qu". What we do get, instead, is Zeon Aces raking up more mobile suit kills in the last months of the One Year War than Nazi German pilots racked up in aircraft and ground targets killed during the many years of the Eastern Front of WW2- while the Luftwaffe pilots were hoped up on Meth and flying multiple sorties a day, and its still generally accepted that these kill numbers are vastly overstated because They love their propaganda.

I'm not saying that Gundam is Fascist- just that Tomino was writing with a certain worldview and a certain inherently flawed historiography of WW2 to base the One Year War on.

I mean I will say that 0083 and 08th MS Team and Unicorn are pretty goddamned fashy, though. Also Code Fairy has Zeon idols praying at the wreckage of the Hidolfr, so.

Edit Edit: I actually think that someone did the math, and the official combined MS Kill Count from every Zeon Ace in the OYW actually comes out to two times the total amount of Mobile Suits that the Federation made in the OYW.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Jan 26, 2023

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 05:21

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I don't think the problem is with anything Tomino has made, mind you. I'd lay any real problems with this sort of, well, Zeonwank at the hands of the people who wrote stuff like 0083.

Note that I never said that Tomino was working from a fascist worldview or has fascist ideals or aims- he was just working off the same (bad) historiography that everyone at that time Period was working on, which is how we ended up with all sorts of myths about Nazi Germany being commonly accepted in the mainstream- stuff like how ADVANCED Nazi Science was, or just HOW GOOD AT WAR the Nazis were.

I don't even think Tomino is bad about his ideals. Its later authors who don't really get what Tomino was going for and talk about stuff like the "Light of Zeon" and deliberately heighten the connection between Zeon and the Axis powers while going "no Zeon are the good guys they're noble and tragic" who I think are dogshit.

Edit: Maybe its easier to talk about specific gundam series instead of Gundam as a whole?

grassy gnoll posted:

I can't get behind that read. 0079 is an explicit and direct critique of Imperial Japan and its actions in the war, and Tominio's series at least continue that line of thought to the post-war victors and how they fell into the same traps as the vanquished fascist regimes. On top of that, Tomino's Zeon is pretty inept at the actual business of prosecuting a war.

Like, a lot of the historiography you're describing was certainly present in Western literature, though not the only viewpoint represented in the field. While it can seem like there were some of the same traits in Japanese historiography, that's largely a function of the entirety of the Western analysis of Japanese research and writing stemming from one dickhead's book that had been originally published in Japan in the early 50's. The LDP makes a big show of going to Yasakuni shrine, but that's because they're a bunch of rightist assholes themselves, and shouldn't be construed as representative of the majority opinion of a country for fifty-odd years. The Japanese corpus, especially by the Vietnam era when Tominio would have been writing, had published plenty of work criticizing the Imperial regime.

The problem is when the franchise got away from him. Like, don't mistake me as being all in on Tomino, 'cause dude's got problems, but accidentally lionizing fascists isn't one of 'em. Even then, Zeon doesn't come out smelling like roses in most of the mainline UC works until at earliest the 90s with 0083, and I would argue more properly in the 2000s, when IGLOO comes around and keeps doing the Dr. Strangelove compulsive heil gesture. And by that time, there was a hell of a lot of researching taking an enormous poo poo all over the kind of Ambrosian history you're describing.

That also isn't to say there wasn't side material from the jump that went "hurf, glorious Zeonic ~~Krupp~~ Corp steel," but if regular Gundam canon is already pretty loose, I can't imagine trying to square crap like the Thunderbolt manga.

Like, this? This I agree with, absolutely. I Think my take away from gundam is "When Gundam is a critique of fascism and imperialism, its good. When people start using Gundam to glorify fascism, and imperialism, its bad."

Which is why I don't really like a lot of the more popular 'non mainline" Gundam works and spinoffs set in the Universal Century and One Year War. Tomino absolutely critiques imperial japan and says without subtextt "This poo poo sucks yo."

But then you have later series not written by him in the 90's and it starts slipping away and away, and as you get into more spinoffs and side stories and games and MS IGLOO, it just goes full on into, well, We've seen MS IGLOO.

Edit Edit: I should have been more clear. You can absolutely criticize the post war relationship between Japan and the US without being a fascist, and its absolutely the kind of relationship that should be criticized to at least some degree. But you can also totally have criticisms that come at it from a more "wow this criticism seems sorta fashy" way- but that's not the way, in general, Gundam does it.

I mean you could kinda squint at SEED and see ORB as an idealized Japan that don't need no-superpower and is one on its own, while also keeping its pacifism and neutrality and not being drawn into America's foreign wars.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jan 26, 2023

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 07:04

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ninjewtsu posted:

what parts of 0079 do you think are about how the nazis are good at war

i'm pretty sure those works are reasonably critical of "the light of zeon" and the idea that for these splinter factions zeon grew to a mythological status with tons of desperate hopes pinned to it for lack of another symbol. which is you know part of how how irl fascism festers.

also i feel like we've had the "depicting some zeon characters as sympathetic is a more complex discussion of fascism than 'shoot 'em all and feel nothing' and does not actually represent pro-fascism themes" conversation before

I figure that you can absolutely read Zeon's lightning Blitzkrieg attack on Earth, if you squint at it, as being "MAN THE NAZIS WERE GREAT AT WAR" if you didn't look at the subtext and also text saying "Zeon's Blitzkrieg basically exhausted them of resources and didn't achieve their war aims."

You can also totally have antagonists and characters who are on the "Wrong Side" be sympathetic without it also going "By showing these characters being good people, we endorse Fascism". Look at Ramba Ral, or, hell, even Char "II never betrayed anyone in my entire life" Aznable.

But then where do characters like Anavel Gato lie in that? Are we meant to be sympathetic to him? Because I watch 0083 and he seems like a crazy space nazi who won't admit the war is over.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 07:19

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ninjewtsu posted:

how did the real life nazi blitzkrieg go, and how did that differ from this?

Yeah that's super on point. I know I'm like, super tough on Gundam, but I really do love most of the franchise. Some of the franchise.

But I dunno, there's lots of stuff in the works not made by Tomino that seem pretty hosed up to me. But on actual like, retrospection? Most of my complaints are about shows that are generally considered not good. Maybe I should talk more about stuff I like, like how Graham Aker is a huge badass who actually damages a gundam and forces it to run away while in a non-gundam mobile suit in Gundam 00.

Or how just cozy Turn A Gundam could feel at times, and how you really felt this tension that another war could ruin everything for people, especially once the nukes show up.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 07:25

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

ninjewtsu posted:

i would appreciate it if you remember this post the next time you jump into the thread with a hot take about how gundam is actually pro-fascist, or maybe at least have some specifics of what you're talking about

I don't even think Gundam, as a whole is pro-fascist. Just some of the bad ones like 0083 or 08th, and some spinoff material like Code Fairy. Some of the bad ones aren't pro-fascist either, they're just bad for other reasons, like AGE's writing and characterization problems, or 00 Season 2 feeling like it lost the charm of Season 1; or Wing trying to shove all of Char's character arc from two series and a movie into a single series. And I like Wing, too.

I kinda feel the need to actually defend not liking Unicorn (I like Hathaway and Thunderbolt), and that saying "yeah I don't like Banagher" or "I don't like the writing or plot in general" or "I don't really like the overuse of sexual assault as a tragic backstory for characters" isn't a good enough reason to not like this thing that everyone says you have to like to be into gundam. Its like Transformers and the IDW Comics.

Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jan 26, 2023

# ¿ Jan 26, 2023 07:35

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

The Notorious ZSB posted:

Rebellion isn't perfect (Nina is worse, so much worse), and the continuation into the foundation of the Titans gets real weird with Gato, but the core pieces I don't think elevate him as a positive figure.

Jesus Christ, How Horrifying. How?

# ¿ Jan 28, 2023 01:39

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I like the theory that Johnny Ridden is just a GiTS SaC style Stand Alone Complex.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2023 04:03

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

I think Unicorn is good up to a certain point, with some really dumb stuff that is still less dumb than the book version- but then after that point it gets not good, and Narrative is worse.

But its still better than Yamato 2202.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2023 06:48

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

GimmickMan posted:

I'll bite. What did the 2022 Yamato do wrong compared to the original?

e: Oh 2202 are the original movie sequels. That makes more sense. I thought you were talking about the 2199 TV series. Numbers are hard.

Nah 2199 is great. It's really good. It goes "Wait, Dessler is just hitler, gently caress that, All my Homies hate Dessler". It also goes "Japanese ultranationalism and fascism is bad"

So they gave 2202 to Fukui, who immediately went "Actually Dessler is Rad and so is Japanese Ultranationalism even when it attempts to sell out all of humanity and caused all the problems."

# ¿ Feb 2, 2023 22:23

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Besides all the fascism, I was soured on 2202 when the first thing you see is a bad "Ships moving ins static formation and not maneuvering at all except for the protagonists" style battle scene. 2202 is a Star Trek Discovery Season 2 final battle rear end show.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2023 17:38

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

And considering the original plans Tomino had for Anaheim, that, uh, it all really stinks.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2023 16:42

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Omnicrom posted:

What were the original plans for Anaheim?

You ever seen Angel Cop?

# ¿ Feb 5, 2023 23:26

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:52

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Nessus posted:

what in the world, lol

It's like he got halfway to a vaguely interesting idea which would even tie back into the text in a tragic way (space settlement analogized to the original Zionist idea but on terra nullius for real-real) and then decided "nah I bought this Protocols book at the Lawson for three hundred yen, let's use that instead"

I don't even chalk it up to Tomino being like, a closest fascist or anything. It's just that a lot of the Japanese left wing when a bunch of people who went on to define the real robot genre of things kinda got into ANti-semistism from being Anti-Zionist, or got real big into ecofascism through environmentalism

It's like how the real plot of Angel Cop is "DA JEWS AND THEIR PSYCHIC COMMIE ASSASSINS TRYING TO RUIN JAPAN", or how a couple of environmentalist anime in the late 90's had an explicitly ecofascist message (Arjuna, Blue Gender, etc)

# ¿ Feb 6, 2023 20:34

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Gundam Thread 5: That's no Anime, boy! No Anime!

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