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Dolash posted:Man the weirdest thing about episode 11 to me is until that point, Charlotte was more of an idea than a person, as she was in season 1's episode 11 as a representation of the dream "other life" Bojack could've had. That she went on to have a family of her own isn't too surprising, but the way she reacted to Bojack was - inviting him to stay is such a strange move, what was she thinking there? She must've seen through the boat show thing. By the time of the prom she was leaning on him more than her husband, and then their talk in the backyard, she's got this whole unexplored character and life we only saw a bit of. Was she unhappy with Kyle? Nostalgic for her free youth? Did she really have strong feelings for Bojack that'd persisted all this time? A page back, but I think Charlotte was in a similar headspace as Bojack, looking back at what could have been. The difference is she doesn't hate her life and herself. I think she accepted Bojack into her home in with a mixture of nostalgia, pity, a general desire to help, and a tiny bit regret for not building a life with him when she was in her 20's. Clearly she has some kind of feelings for him, and I wonder if she had similar dreams about what her life would have been like with Bojack. When Bojack finally lays everything out in the backyard and she starts talking about how they only knew each other for 5 minutes 30 years ago, I think she is talking to herself more than him. Of course, when she find him with Penny everything snaps into focus, and any trace of fantasy or nostalgia is destroyed instantly.
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Jul 20, 2015 06:31
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Aces High posted:so as much as I enjoyed the result of it at the end of episode 11 did Penny force herself on BoJack or did he actually just think "gently caress it, let's do this"? I mean it doesn't make a huge difference since BoJack didn't say "it's not what it looks like" when Charlotte walked in but at the same time I wouldn't have thought that BoJack would ever stoop that low. I think the second one. After getting rejected by Charlotte, when Penny is waiting for him on the boat, he tells her to go to bed and then goes into the bedroom, but he leaves the bedroom door open. Particularly since it is also the door to the outside, there was no reason for him to do that unless he expected her to follow him. If this is correct, it's kind of breathtaking to realize just how much bigger his transgressions against Charlotte are compared to Herb. That said, there is enough ambiguity that, barring one of the creators weighing in, you can definitively say it happened either way.
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Jul 21, 2015 08:23
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Opposing Farce posted:When he says "go to bed Penny" I think he was definitely telling her to go back to her own bed and leave him alone. Leaving the door open in that moment isn't in itself an invitation to come inside, but you could probably read it as kind of a visual metaphor for what we can most reasonably assume happens next: Penny persists, and instead of shutting her down and leaving her outside Bojack gives in. I doubt Bojack asked Penny to sleep with him, but obviously he agreed to do it, and considering he's a grown-rear end horse and she's a teenage girl that isn't actually any better. This is a good point, I don't think he left the door open as an invitation so much as acknowledging that she wasn't going to give up, and that he no longer had the energy or motivation to resist her. It signaled he was going back to being passively indifferent as he does when depressed. Even though he didn't want to sleep with her, he consented because in the moment it was the path of least resistance.
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Jul 21, 2015 09:13
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Toxxupation posted:again, it's the jokes like the van camp "wordplay" or the doctor who/hu joke that are absolute loving scum and should be gotten rid of, they're not funny and they're so forced that whole scenes have to be built around the "payoff" of a dumb one-liner The really dark, cynical character work creates a huge contrast to the dumb dad jokes. I don't think I would enjoy the dumb jokes nearly as much if they weren't surrounded by emotional devastation and misery.
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Jul 23, 2015 06:36
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Xanderkish posted:So I discovered this show two weeks ago and finished it within a week and now I want plushies of all five main characters because I love them all so much and want to hug them when I sleep. I think just about any episode after 11 will feel like a letdown. That said, the improv plotline felt a bit like low hanging fruit, and Bojack realizing how important Todd's friendship is to him and how he is a jerk to Todd is something they have gone to a few times already so it feels weaker. I still like the last episode, but I think it was one of the weaker ones for the season and coming right after out of LA just magnifies the problem. On the plus side, the parts with Princess Caroline were loving great.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:47
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FactsAreUseless posted:Episode 11 is brilliant, Penny's a great character. It's extremely well done. It's just also nearly unwatchable.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:32
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Does anyone else think Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter might try to adopt an older child next season? Diane seemed to really enjoy taking care of that war orphan (before he got blown up) and her friend Bojack has an orphanage so he can probably get her one pretty quick. Mr. Peanutbutter would probably love the idea (adopting an orphan would be just like his sitcom!) he might even insit on getting twins (so the whole thing thing can be even more like his sitcom). I can't decide if it'd end up as a good thing or go horribly wrong like most other things on this show This makes a ton of sense. Add to this the fact that Mr. Peanutbutter is a yellow lab, so of course he loves children. Despite everything else, Diana and Mr. Peanutbutter's relationship seems to be one of the only things on the show that doesn't go horribly wrong.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:32
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Aces High posted:time to go back and rewatch seasons 1 and 2 again Same, though I'm not sure I can watch escape from LA again. We will see when I reach it.
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Jun 3, 2016 18:54
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No Wave posted:Judah's not an uncommon name Princess Caroline responds to disappointments and setbacks by compulsively losing herself deeper into her work and other people's problems. As compared to Diane and Bojack, who both will first spiral and then kinda shut down. Her cooping may be more functional in the short-term, but is probably just as harmful in the long run.
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Feb 21, 2017 08:30
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Xealot posted:His life already is a happy ending. He's a rich and well-liked celebrity whose career is in an upswing, and he's emotionally healthy and capable of love, contentment, and open communication with his spouse. The worst thing I can picture happening to him is Diane divorcing him, mostly because she's only functional compared to Bojack. Bojack and Diane seem to be the same person in a lot of ways. She made the same choice in her conversation with the mouse woman that Bojack made back with the network executive while Horsing Around is still going on. They both made a conscious decision to place career ambitions above the person that matters most to them (either Herb or Mr. Peanutbutter). The consequences haven't played out yet, but Diane has already made her choice. The kind of person that Mr. Peanutbutter is, I think that level of betrayal willhurt him to the core.
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Mar 29, 2017 22:28
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The Croc posted:Todd is a good sidekick character so when hes paired in a scene with bojack or Mr Peanutbutter it usually works well. Maybe, but I doubt it. People said the same thing going into season 2 and 3. Todd there to lighten the show up a bit, but his character doesn't have alot of weight. He is also pretty passive and content to go along with thing as they come. It's hard to get invested in his stories when most of the time he himself isn't particularly invested.
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Jul 5, 2017 23:04
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:I'd argue he's more dysfunctional and toxic in S4. PB can put on a convincing lie and drag you in, then suck up all your emotional energy. What's worse is he's unwilling to face the fact he's at the center of all his own problems or that he even has them. The governors race is pretty much the perfect storm to emphasize all of PB's worst characteristics. His need to be liked and admired particularly by strangers, his conviction that things will workout on their own if intentions are good so details can be sweated, his tendency to outright dismiss or not even see other people concerns if the concerns doesn't effect him, all combine to make him behave like a narcissistic rear end in a top hat. It's an interesting question, are these events changing PB into a different person, or are we just seeing who he always has been in a far less flattering light? I think one of the larger themes of the show is that no one is 100% angel or demon. I wonder if next season will examine Butterscotch Horseman, given the repeated references to his frustrated artistic ambition, and the fact we saw he did finish his book.
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Nov 11, 2017 09:10
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Bust Rodd posted:Moreso because it’s 2017 and it would appear that how much you love something directly correlates to the likelihood that it hosed someone the wrong way. Turns out that was the real reason Michael Cera was reluctant to comeback for season 4.
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Nov 12, 2017 05:21
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prefect posted:Dali is bad? Dali was a diehard facist who even into the 1980's talked about how much he loved Franco.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:55
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It a hard show to watch in terms of themes and character work. It has very little actually content that would need to be censured such as overt sex or violence. Pretty much just the odd curse word here and there. Besides, if it is syndicated it will end up on adult swim or something similar, not airing during the afternoon on Hallmark.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:02
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Lurdiak posted:I was watching w/ Bob and David again, specifically the behind the scenes featurette, and the improvised nonsense standup Paul F. Thompkins uses to warm up the crowd sounds exactly like the garbage Mr. Peanutbutter says. He also has an improv podcast which frequently runs to Mister Peanutbutter style cheerful stupidity. Given the number of talented comedians doing voicework, I suspect there is a decent amount of ad libs.
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Jan 21, 2018 01:57
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Pick posted:It's not that he "doesn't give a gently caress", if he didn't give a gently caress he literally just doesn't have to be there. He's just got a big-picture view of things and he knows a ton of the people there are going to die, they've been dying the whole time. He is 100% correct when he says that the dead gain nothing from mourning, but the living need a hospital. I think Diane is also right when she says he doesn't really care about these people, and is there to satisfy his own ego. But, so what? The fact that he distances himself from their immediate suffering is the same thing that allows him to be effective and carry on. It's another formulation of some of the questions the show has been playing with its entire run. Are people more than the sum of their actions? Is the fundamental goodness or villainy of a given action or set of actions altered by the intentions of the person performing it? At the end of the first season Diane states "I don't think I believe in deep down. I kinda think that all you are is just the things that you do." The hospital gets built, does actually matter whether or not the person responsible was motivated by benevolence or raging narcissism? I dont know fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Feb 7, 2018 |
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Feb 7, 2018 05:15
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" but in reality he is helping, in an imperfect way, and she had to get on the plane and go home because even though she was rip-roaring to journalistically break him down, his imperfect performance is doable, and her ideal performance is impossible.
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Has there been any stories of genuine contrition in response to #MeToo? The closest I can think of is Aziz Ansari saying he's sorry to that lady he throatscraped. Bojack seems to be about how no one is entirely good or bad, with the nicest characters, such as Mr Peanutbutter, still having recognizable flaws, and the worst characters such as Bojack and Beatrice, still being empathetic. That said, Bojack has indisputably done horrible things. Since the show is sympathetic to him and from his point of view it easy to rationalize some of his behavior.
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Feb 17, 2018 17:38
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Bust Rodd posted:He bought her and her friends alcohol and also she’s 17 and he’s a 50 year celebrity, sorry, but if you don’t think leaving the door open was a calculated invitation you are posting from Denial, Egypt Penny wasn't drinking alcohol, she even points out that fact when trying to convince Bojack to sleep with her. I think he left the door open because he was too tired and depressed to do anything other then let events play out, as a 50 year old man it's entirely on him to shut things down and not doing so is a disgusting moral failure. However, saying that not locking someone out of your room constitutes a sexual advance is a bit of a stretch. Bust Rodd posted:Actually the smartest #metoo plotline would be someone going after Todd, because we know he DEFINITELY wouldn’t do that, and that actually provides some drama and tension. We’ve all seen the way Bojack and Mr. PB treat women, I could see Todd going on a date and like comically slipping on some spaghetti and accidentally grabbing Jessica Alba’s boob and apologizing and then all these other celebrities come out and misappropriate Todd’s buffoonery as sexism and then the lady-cab driver plotline rears back up... Not trying to single you out specifically, there have been a number of other posters suggest similar ideas, but it is absolutely a terrible idea to for the show to depict a male character do something innocent that gets misinterpreted, and then being wrongly accused by the #metoo movement. Responding to #metoo, a cultural movement about systematic sexual assault that has been going on for decades should not be, "What about all the innocent men who are wrongly accused of rape."
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Feb 21, 2018 23:30
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Pick posted:I'm in no way averse to asexual representation but I thought that was the most crudely preachy aspect of the show and I really think it was written clumsily. The show seems to have a lot of trouble using Todd for anything other than hijinx and comedy relief. The character is just poorly suited to carrying actual story lines.
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Feb 22, 2018 06:54
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Android Blues posted:I definitely think that part of it (and her break with Ralph, too, although there were other factors there) is just that PC is addicted to "fixing" other people and feels insecure when she finds herself in a close relationship with someone who has nothing to fix. Bojack sort of did a number on her in that regard. I think it long predates Bojack. Likely, the fact he's such a trainwreck is what was so attractive to her in the first place. She even explained in The Best Thing That Ever Happened, her mom was a live-in servant for a rich family that was also a useless drunk. As a child, PC had to constantly cover for her mom, or they would both be out on the street. For her, close relationships have always had the quality of taking responsibility for the other person.
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Apr 1, 2018 01:42
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Caganer posted:did david sedaris ever do a guest voice or any writing or was it all amy? As far as I know Amy was only a voice actor not a writer. Though, I wouldn't at all be surprised if he had an uncredited cameo somewhere along the line.
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Apr 7, 2018 04:37
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SEX BURRITO posted:They even had the red flag that she was getting sober so that she could get even more high once she got back on drugs. That’s like the most classic way for ex-addicts to die because they lose their tolerance. Hell, in the first episode she is in back in the beginning of the first season, she flat out predicts her own death in more or less exactly the way it happens. The show never played it coy with how very grim Sarah Lynn's life situation was.
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Jun 30, 2018 23:43
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm pretty sure most people have that voice. I think most people have that voice to an extent, but it's a matter of degrees. What most people have is doubt. What you hear in "Piece of poo poo" where it's like a continuous monologue of self hatred or even like another person that hates you inside your head are persistent intrusive thoughts. Which is a characteristic of depression (and OCD, and anxiety disorders, and PTSD, and other similar psych disorders).
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Jul 7, 2018 23:36
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Bojack is an incredibly flawed person, but he actually tries to be better, and has several moments of clarity amongst his many fuckups. I don't see how you can compare him to Walter White or Space Todd who have basically no redeeming qualities. One of the things I really like about Bojack (and generally hate about prestige dramas) is the show never presents Bojack's destructive behavior as anything other than repulsive. I feel like in a lot of dramas, which are hypothetically about a character's corruption or moral failings are not so secretly celebrating the horrible actions and encouraging viewers to treat the protagonists fall as a power fantasy. With Bojack they go out of their way to show how Bojacks behavior hurts everyone around him including himself. Not to sound like a stuck up moralist, but the hypocrisy always sticks out to me and this show does a really good job of not falling into that trap.
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Jul 10, 2018 03:22
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Aces High posted:I can't remember did Sarah-Lynn actually use the BoJack heroin? I know they found it but then the Oscars happened. Just kinda interesting that BoJack ends up killing her in more than one way She literally OD'ed on Bojack. It's a bit on the nose.
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Jul 11, 2018 01:18
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:The explanation I heard was that a fan suggested that Dumbledore could be gay because the text never contradicts the idea, and Rowling's response was "Yeah, you're right. Sure, he's totally gay." Supposedly the script for one of the movies had Dumbledore make reference to girl he once loved, and Rowling told them to remove it without providing an explanation.
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Jul 14, 2018 18:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Seems to be a theme with both of them that going from an abusive family to stardom with all the wealth and popularity to do whatever they want basically inevitably turbofucked Bojack, Sarah-Lynn and countless other people in Hollywoo. Sarah-Lynn actually being smart enough to realise it but at that point not knowing how to live any other way. There is definitely a recurring theme of people realizing how destructive their basic patterns are, but being unable or unwilling to change them. Princess Caroline's childhood hasn't been shown, but she explained it to Bojack in the episode where he fires her. Que: Bojack: How come you never told me that before? PC: I did. Several times. Bojack: Oh... Samuringa posted:We're going to be here all day if we try to pinpoint which child actor that got their life ruined by fame Sarah Lynn was inspired on There are also some direct references to Britney Spears. I would say Dana Plato is a pretty close fit, but like you say she really just a stand in for every troubled kid whose life became far worse when they became a star.
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Aug 2, 2018 16:58
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One of the things that I really like about Bojack compared to most prestige tv (Bojack isn't really prestige, but it does resemble it in a lot of ways), is that it doesn't secretly celebrate it's antiheroes horribleness. A lot of prestige tv invites viewers to live vicariously through its antiheroes, and enjoy all the sex and drugs that the characters do, while simultaneously condemning them for it. Not that good tv has to be morality tales, but the two-faced hypocrisy bothers me. In the same way a lot of old slasher flicks would kill the teenage girls who have sex, but still have lots of learing shots of their naked bodies.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:44
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Calaveron posted:So basically prestige TV is if they have more than three cameras and a budget for wardrobe and period piece costumes That's definitely part of it. Prestige tv is really more a set of characteristics, and a show doesn't necessarily need to have all of them to be categorized as such. A couple off the top of my head include 1) Expensive. They tend to have very high production costs, likely substantially more than other shows on the same network. Connected with this is 2) Star power. They frequently have an A-listers attached. In many cases actors better known for film than tv. 3) Heavily serialized. 4) Adult themes. Heavy with sex, drugs, violence, ect. 5) Dead serious. If there is humor it tends to be gallows. 6) Antiheroes. The main character(s) are if not out right villainous, at least pretty badly behaved. 7) High concept, bordering on pretentious in some cases. Data Graham posted:Also serialized. I would agree with that. Sopranos and HBO dramas in general, also are major forerunners.
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Sep 10, 2018 01:03
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Pick posted:It's really weird to me that S5 has undercut a lot of scenes I liked in earlier seasons. One of my favorites being in Season 1, in the first episode with Sarah-Lynne, where she and Bojack have a talk on the bench and Bojack starts imagining "the credits" and emulating them with his fingers. I would say that since the beginning the show as promoted the idea that people, consciously or unconsciously, imitate what they see on tv to their own detriment. This is bad in the case of sentimental family sitcoms like Horsing Around, and significantly worse for a gritty antihero drama like Philbert. Both cases follow from the show exploring a larger theme about how people respond to media. The joke with Bojack acting out ending credits is that he is taking things way to far, as usual. The characters are always just characters first and foremost, not allegories. However, the show is (and always has been) pretty didactic. The characters don't directly represent something, but they frequently cause their own pain with the decisions they make, and viewers are invited to consider that in their own decision making.
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Sep 20, 2018 13:52
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Straight White Shark posted:I think it was a clever trick so the writers could have their cake and eat it too. It let them have simultaneously show Bojack making progress (hey, he's no longer doing monstrous things of his own volition/because he got bored and decided to go on a bender!) while still having a convenient drama hose they could tap when they needed to. One of the things that struck me this season is that PC comes across as really monstrous. Bojack never wanted to do the show, but does so entirely as a favor to her. When he (correctly) identities that playing this role is going to be harmful to his mental health she manages him to convince not to worry about it. When he is injured, she arranges for the doctor to sting him out on pain killers specifically so it doesn't effect the production schedule. When the same painkillers put him in a fugue state and he chokes his costar she is there to arrange cover for him that he doesn't really want. She has a high degree of complicity to all the terrible events this season.
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Sep 21, 2018 16:23
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CoolCab posted:that is absolutely a power fantasy - it is quite literally demonstrable given weinstien literally did this. it is an atypical power fantasy, sure - but there are lots of wishes that need fulfilled. the universe dropping a literal baby in your lap to save that proves you’re a good person despite your continued lovely behaviour is a power fantasy to an almost absurd degree. Its worth pointing out that a need to be pitied is one of the most consistent attributes in people with psychopathy. Because when a person is pitied they will be able to get away with a far great range of horrible behavior than is otherwise possible. Its where the stereotype of a domestic abuser who first beats their partner and then cries about how "they can't control themselves because they love that person too much" comes from. Pity gives permission they in a way nothing else does. I wouldn't call it a power fantasy, but I can definitely imagine there are lovely people out there who like watching Bojack to be reassured that they are not fundamentally bad in spite of their horrible behavior. The show has already pushed back against this multiple times though. Diana saying, "There is no deep down, all you are is the things you do". Todd declaring, "It's you, you are all the lovely things you do". And now Diana's speech before Bojack goes into rehab.
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Sep 21, 2018 16:38
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Straight White Shark posted:It's on a cliff. Just go over the side. Just like Bojack. Presumably the bathroom is the nonglass segment at the corner.
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Sep 22, 2018 15:23
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ymgve posted:Would they even recognize it’s based on them? Philbert, as played by Bojack, kisses and nearly sleeps with a 17 year old on the USS New Mexico. Yes, they would. It is way to on the nose to be a coincidence.
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Sep 26, 2018 16:21
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Todd is an ok character, but he can't really carry a dramatic story line and works better as a support character for the rest of the cast. He can't really carry his own plots because he is more or less content no matter what, and one of the most basic components of any story is your main character has to want something. It's hard to be engaged in a character's story when the character isn't himself. There is a reason most Todd episodes, that aren't silly side stories, consist of other characters forcing Todd to do something.
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Oct 24, 2018 15:57
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Pick posted:You can just buy diet pills. A lot of them are mostly caffeine but some of them will still really gently caress you up and have other weird poo poo in them. I would not put it past Beatrice to have diet pills from decades ago, back when the currently very sketchy industry was even sketchier. The diet/supplement industry is very loosely regulated. Periodically, health researchers will buy a bunch of off the shelf products and run them through chemistry assays to see what's really in them. They often find mercury, arsenic, and number of other poisonous poo poo.
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Nov 21, 2018 21:34
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I guess it's entirely unsurprising, but still amazing to have something miss the point so badly. It would qualify as decent satire, if it wasn't done 100% without awareness.
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Mar 13, 2019 15:18
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I would say that Diane decision to show Bojack she knew what he did, by writing a scene based on what happened in New Mexico was extremely hosed up. Not because it hurt "poor boj", but because turning other people pain into a weapon with out their knowledge or permission is incredibly cruel. What the hell do Charolette and Penny feel when they find out a tramatic event was turned into fodder for a lovely streaming drama.
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Mar 14, 2019 03:55
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Yeah, Diane explicitly exposing someone else's trauma in such a public way is the worst thing she's ever done. Forget Bojack, this isn't about him, this is about Penny and her maybe not wanting her past broadcast for the world to see. Can you imagine turning on the tv and seeing the story of the time you almost got statutory raped being told by the guy who almost statutory raped you? Now you have to deal with all those awful memories again and worry about whether or not the this all somehow gets traced back to you. Penny isn't a celebrity, she's a regular person just trying to live her life and shouldn't forcibly be put in a position where she has to deal with any media circus bullshit. It's weird, because past episodes, it has made a point of showing that one of Diana's character flaws is she takes license to completely disregard the thoughts and opinions of others when she thinks she is right. This is another example of her doing this, but the show just let her skate without consequence so far. Pakled posted:Bojack season 1 was an unexpected hit because nobody thought it would be good. The marketing material that had come out up to that point failed to differentiate it from the typical terrible adult cartoon and the critics, having received only the first six episodes of the season, said it was "okay" at best. The first couple episodes of Bojack were just dire, but I feel like this is a problem for any character driven comedy. Most of the humor and pathos comes from knowing who the characters are and then watching them bounce off each other, so it takes time to establish their personalities with audiences. I remember Bob's Burgers similarly premiered to tepid reception only to become beloved after having enough episodes that audiences got to know the nuance of the characters.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:42
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