Street Fighter V: We have a psycho crush on this game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Street Fighter V: We have a psycho crush on this game

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Saint Freak posted:

Didn't Skullgirls make a more complete game with like 4 dudes in a basement somewhere? Capcom shoulda hired weird porn artists I guess.

They, uh, have, actually. Though they were more on the Megaman side of things. But usually you'll be really surprised when looking up what people draw for fun.

Jmcrofts posted:

Skullgirls also didn't have story mode or spectator mode at launch. It had a good tutorial though, which sf5 doesn't.

Skullgirls did have the excuse of being in the middle of a lawsuit with Konami and the dev team being fired and reforming a new company just to finish the game without getting paid for it. The only excuse of SF5 is being made by Capcom.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2016 11:05

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 09:37

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

FightingStreet posted:

Cammy being a female clone of Bison is one of those things that literally makes no sense yet has somehow remained canon

CLONING DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY

Well, karate doesn't let you project balls of chi either so it's all right.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2016 17:20

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

AnonSpore posted:

The fact that a game is required to be offline to play is the real fuckup

There's no good reason the game should interrupt local play when you lose the connection. Could have a little popup in the bottom right or something.

Chev fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Mar 2, 2016

# ¿ Mar 2, 2016 23:14

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

ZenVulgarity posted:

It's uploading and constantly updating things, what

Things it doesn't absolutely need to upload while you're playing local. Many other games that merge online and offline are happy enough putting those things in a queue for the next time they're online when the connection cuts off.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2016 23:20

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

ZenVulgarity posted:

It's not that hard to sign out

That's no excuse for bad system design.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2016 23:26

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Pomp posted:

i thought alt tab just swapped the lag that already existed over to the other guy so someone was having an unplayable match either way

Basically their netcode implementation is lacking the time synchronization part. Because it's a rollback system, a game can actually be carried even if the players are not synced and it'll work. But that means if you worsen the sync you can actually induce lag.

Imagine two people running side by side. If one runner starts running behind, his partner can't see what he's doing anymore, while the guy behind can see everything the other guy is doing. Alt-Tab is basically one guy stopping in his tracks to check his phone, which puts him behind.
So even if both runners were on equal footing, one of them stopping has induced lag that didn't exist before.

The bit that needs to be added to their netcode in is basically tying a rope between both runners so that when one gets slower or stops the other has to do the same or have everything crash down. In pure input delay models the universe explodes when both runners get more that two meters apart so people usually don't forget it, while good rollback systems are a lot more resilient.

Chev fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Mar 16, 2016

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 19:07

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

NecroMonster posted:

manually set input delay?

that doesn't sound very casual friendly.

Does League Of Legends let you set your input delay?

The way GGPO does it is it sets, by default, an input delay appropriate for the connection you've got, but lets you free to adjust it. Casuals don't have anything to do that way, it'll just work.

apple posted:

Rollback by design requires you to set a delay parameter by which both players operate on as a minimum.

The interesting thing is both players can have different delays, it's purely a presentation thing.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 19:41

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

HoboWithAShotgun posted:

It has to be really low if UK to UK matches get bursts of random rollback. Or maybe it just sucks because those bursts happen to anyone within EU.

Because the time sync bit is missing, you'll get random rollback even though the ping doesn't justify it. You could be playing on a local network (I mean, except that you can't) and you'd still have the possibility of it behaving like your opponent's from the other side of the planet.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2016 19:54

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

FanaticalMilk posted:

I'd rather have a game that was programmed by competent people. If anything, Capcom needs to hire all the people that worked on the MGSV PC port, assuming Kojima hasn't already scooped them all up for his new studio.

It's kinda tricky. Having looked into the lag thing, it seems a good deal of it is probably due to UE4 having innately high input lag, so it's the price to pay with middleware. MGSV had the luxury of a fully homemade engine. On the other hand, I've also read about poor UE3 lag yet Guilty Gear Xrd's PC version seems to be up there with Skullgirls, even with post effects enabled. And there's also the fact SF4 already had higher lag than it ought to, so there's something they must've already been doing wrong.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 19:31

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Okita posted:

That's actually not true. Floating point numbers are inherently innacurately represented in binary. You might have something like 0.1 + 0.2 end up being 0.30000000000000004 (0.1 is a repeating decimal when represented in binary). I'd guess the reason there's floats everywhere is because it's running on a 3d engine that does all kinds of precise calculations with them(3d rotations with matrix multiplication, etc).

For games, getting precise numbers doesn't matter as long as they're consistent. One of the most egregious problems with floats for a game like SFV is actually unexpected: unless you've set the right compiler flags the precision can vary from processor to processor and from build to build (or, depending on the framework, from execution to execution), which leads to desync in network matches and replays because the same inputs will produce different outputs. It's a special kind of hell made for netcode programmers. Due to that some games will rather use fixed point or integers for gameplay purposes.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2016 01:03

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Lemon-Lime posted:

He's not the only designer who worked on SF5, or 3S for that matter, so it's not like him leaving after SF5 went gold is terrible for SF5.

He actually left before SF5 was finished, but as far as we know he's been stuck writing manuals for quite a while at Capcom (which i probably one reason he left) and didn't work on SF5.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2016 15:31

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Jack Trades posted:

Why can't Capcom ask the Skullgirls guys for their netcode?
I remember playing that against Americans across the pond with 175 ping and even then it still had less rollback than what most 5-bar connections in SFV have.

It's GGPO. But most japanese developers have a strong bias against middleware, though you'd think they'd have gotten over it when they switched to UE4 (which even has a ready-made GGPO version for it).

# ¿ May 4, 2016 18:28

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

SectumSempra posted:

I mean i doubt thats why because 3rd person games in general are still popular, but its a point.

Here's something more specific: 3rd person means a number of small camera problems or annoyances that would be tolerable in single player but aren't when you're fighting people. None of that is a factor in first person.

Zand posted:

how is it straight to the point when it intentionally obfuscates info and doesn't give data that lot of players want to see?

If the point is team play there's a case to be made for obfuscating individual data if showing it would actually encourage the kind of players that like to see numbers go up players to not play for the team.

Chev fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 28, 2016

# ¿ May 28, 2016 19:04

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Real hurthling! posted:

fps have their own issues mostly on console with FOV, turning speed, etc. that 3rdps don't

Thos are very small issues compared to the fact you may just not be seeing what's in front of you with a 3rd person camera because it got stuck in a wall or behind your own character. And TPS games definitely have the turning speed issues too.

# ¿ May 28, 2016 19:28

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

making a fg character takes a shitload of time and planning one for once a month with their small pool of resources probably didnt account for literally any hiccup ever and they probably got resources diverted bc sfv didnt sell very well since they forgot to make the game in the first place

They just demoed her on stream and she's basically done, presumably the only reason they're holding her release until june (or july?) is to have an in-game shop.

# ¿ May 31, 2016 22:12

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

hiddenriverninja posted:

is there a VOD of this stream?

Should actually still be ongoing at https://www.twitch.tv/capcomfighters

# ¿ May 31, 2016 22:19

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Bo Jackson posted:

Is it just really friggin hard since the Us Is Big And Has Bad Infrastructure?

While it's not trivial, the gdmag article that explains how to do it and covers the common problems (including asymmetrical rollbacks) has been freely available for years, and if you don't want to bother you can just buy GGPO3, which is cheap and works with UE4 out of the box. So it's purely ignorance at work.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2016 15:56

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

"direct input"?

There's two APIs for game controllers on Windows, DirectInput that works with pretty much anything and XInput that works only with XBox stuff. Guess which one Microsoft is pushing?

(There's technically a third, raw input, but it's really low level and a lot moe complex to use and anything you try and built around it will just eventually look a lot like DirectInput).

# ¿ Jun 15, 2016 18:56

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

punk rebel ecks posted:

Can't they just have both Direct Input and X Input options?

Well, the funny thing is, once you've got directInput there's little reason for also using XInput apart from having the correct button icons rather than button1, button2, etc. But on the other hand XInput is diretcly available in UE4, while directinput needs custom code (not hugely more complex. My experience adding full directinput support including tap to set , persistent button remapping for a homemade fighting game while knowing almost nothing about it is it took me one week and now it works with everything ever).

# ¿ Jun 15, 2016 19:12

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

A.o.D. posted:

The instructions on the page say to stick it in a specific sfv folder, so I'm going to assume that this is a SFV only driver. However, Dantarion said that it took him like an hour to create the drivers, so it might be possible to DIY.

Nothing in it is SFV-specific, save for the fact it assumes a fightstick button layout. The specific folder is because that's the folder where the game looks for DLLs. Although people usually aren't aware of it, programs will by default look in whatever's defined as their local folder before asking the system for a DLL, why is how a lot of game injectors work. So what he made is something that to the game looks like the XInput library but instead is a wrapper around both XInput and DirectInput, and told you to place it in the first place the game would search. So technically it could work with anything, but it also hasn't been tested outside of this specific case.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2016 13:47

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Love Stole the Day posted:

DO NOT INSTALL THIS ON YOUR COMPUTER

I blindly listened to A.o.D.'s recommendation in the hopes that it would finally make my joystick work properly without needing to involve Joy2Key, but after installing them into my game they have caused the Start Menu button (the Enter key, on PC) to not work at all outside of the Main Menu (e.g. you cannot leave Training Mode without closing the game). Even after the .dll files are removed. The popular consensus with the people I've talked to about it is that the .dll files might be interpreted by SF5 as a hack.

Are you sure it's not something else that caused this? There's no code pertaining to keyboards in that dll at all.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2016 17:30

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Klades posted:

It's probably easier to tell if a DLL was loaded from the wrong location than tell if some textures and models are the right ones or not.

Actually, not fundamentally. Finding out if data's been modified is a checksum thing while finding out where a loaded DLL is requires semi-obscure knowledge of the right function (and if they didn't have the kind of programmer who can add DInput support to UE4 they probably don't have the kind of programmer who can add dll checks either). But the real trick is defining the "wrong location", and a prime recipe for disasters because it's so easy to have a config that's non-conventional in this regard.

# ¿ Jun 21, 2016 00:16

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

We Know Catheters posted:

Well, air combos. The stage is moving and the opponent in the air doesn't.

You've gotta be kidding, right?

# ¿ Nov 9, 2016 11:53

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Doggir posted:

The background moves not the stage.

While there's a small chance that could be true, it's actually much simpler for every dev and artist involved in that setup to have a fixed environment, animate the plane through it and attach the fight scene to the plane. And really, that should be equivalent, but in practice there's some subtle differences and possible bugs, depending on whether the devs were incompetent or not. And, well, the developent of SFV hasn't exactly been a showcase for competence, so that kind of bug is quite plausible.

# ¿ Nov 9, 2016 16:44

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Wow, those custumes... At first I thought that was a screen from that chinese knockoff fighter.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2016 02:31

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Night Blade posted:

Is that really it? Didn't Sony bankroll this game?

Obviously they didn't invest as much money into it as people think. Either them or Capcom underestimated the budget or poured it in the wrong places.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2017 17:42

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Fridurmus posted:

There's very little chance direct lines or arcades are coming back. Fighting games need to find a way to be properly viable on wifi connections somehow, or this problem is going to keep coming back over and over.

GGPO works fine. Fighting games' main problem is they ignore it outright or mess up their own implementation of the same technique (as evidenced by how that latest Capcom rigmarole mentions nothing about even acknowledging the asymmetric rollback bug that's been plaguing the game).

In Training posted:

I don't know if that's possible but I'm not an engineer. The online games that are popular on consoles are by and large FPS games where every game will be rife with lag but nobody cares because it's team based and barely competitive.

Yeah, you can't get rid of lag/rollback, only build ways to hide it. Shooters are built around not needing a perfect spatial perception of the match, which opens up a lot of opportunities for hiding rollbacks. It's not quite yet clear how using similar techniques to hide rollbacks in fighting games would be accepted by players.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2017 14:10

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Brosnan posted:

Tekken Tag 2 doesn't use rollback code and it still has one of the best online play experiences in a modern FG.

This is an addressable problem if you hire smart people and dedicate resources to it. Capcom doesn't do either of those things.

Well yeah, but it still hides it, in that specific case by having high input lag even offline, teaching its players to have a high default tolerance for it. It's a method that is traditionally popular for RTS games, for example, while the FPS school of thought, the methods of which eventually resulted in GGPO, is built on the idea that input delay for your character should be as low as possible.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2017 19:30

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Reiley posted:

It's a lot easier to dynamically color edit pixel sprites than 3D model textures, especially if they have a lot of gradient texture baked into the art assets.

No, tinting and color ramps (the modern little brothers of palettization) have been a standard feature of even middleware engines for more than 10 years. There's nothing tricky about dynamically coloring models and it's regularly used in games. They don't include color edit in SFV and other fighting games because they'd rather have you buy extra colors as DLC.

Chev fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Apr 3, 2017

# ¿ Apr 3, 2017 08:12

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Real hurthling! posted:

There were some tests a while back that showed you get better netplay on worse connections and the player with the better connection gets all the rollback. Nothing scientific, some youtuber trying things with his friends.

yeah, who gets the rollbacks is pretty much random (though it is consistent during a match).

# ¿ Jul 18, 2017 19:47

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

also in gg characters are rendered in front of each other and look like 2d images so even when this does happen it doesnt look nearly as weird

Actually SFV does the render-on-top-of-each-other thing too. It's the reason you can see Dhalsim's arm in that shot in the first place, instead of having it go between Abigail's ribs.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2017 00:41

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

theres lots of clipping tho? seems inconsistent

These days you should not be surprised by a part of SFV being inconsistent. They just didn't put the same effort and care in their character animations (or anything, really) as Arcsys does.

Chev fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jul 27, 2017

# ¿ Jul 27, 2017 08:39

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

anime was right posted:

idk they rotoscoped a ton of poo poo in 3s and people consider that one of the most beautiful games of all time

Sure but the bits that are brought up again and again about 3s' awesome animations aren't the rotoscoped crap but all the smears and deformations that have nothing to do with it.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2017 13:39

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

matchmaking is usually matchup-dependent to at least some extent, too. So they need to know the character beforehand.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2017 17:26

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 09:37

Chev: Jul 19, 2010; Switchblade Switcharoo

Yay for removing features. That they were half-assed isn't an excuse, either.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2019 03:00

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